Christianity VS White Magic (Only for Spiritualist/WhiteMagicians & Christians)

[Nacho]

God is really smart... If there's something bad it' s our fault. If something is good we must thank it for its benevolence.

[Nikolas]

and god said:

[image taken out. too disturbing]

If I interfer you won't learn anything?

Well then I suggest that YOU and ME start doing something and not wait for God to do it.

I agree with Nacho

[Erenan]

For not dodging my point, you really are dodging my point! For the fifth time: What about when Jesus died for everybody's sins? Doesn't that mean everybody then (and presumably, everybody now) was forgiven whether they care to be forgiven or not and that if someone wants to follow in his example, he should love everybody unconditionally?

I will not ask you this again if you go blank on me, just know that I will no longer adress you in this topic, since if you say you do one thing (not dodge me) and do another (dodge me) there's not really any point to ask you for your opinions. There's worse fates than not being talked to by Helm on a subject, but I'll let you be the judge of how important all this is anyway.

I'm sorry if you think I have made no attempt to answer you, as I don't mean to do that. There's a lot going on in this thread, and it's not always easy to keep track of what I have responded to and what I haven't. In any case, no. Christ's death does not mean that everyone is forgiven regardless of whether they repent or not. And if you insist it does, you'll have to show me with the text of the Bible that this is so. However...

Jesus on forgiveness: "Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him." (Luke 17:3-4)

More: "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire." (Matthew 18:8-9)

More: "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector." (Matthew 18:15-17)

Matthew 18 continues a few verses later with Jesus delivering a parable that clearly depicts a king's forgiveness being offered only after being begged for it.

Sounds here like some are condemned...

More words of Jesus: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life...He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." (From John 3)

I'm having trouble finding absolute unconditional forgiveness here...

More words of Jesus: "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats(!). And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. (Then he talks about how the King will bring those on his right hand into the kingdom) Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' (Then the goats complain a bit) And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (From Matthew 25)

This doesn't sound very unconditionally forgiving to me...

More words of Jesus: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves...(More of the same)...Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?" (From Matthew 23)

More: "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (From Matthew 13)

Matthew 11:20-24 also describes condemnation based upon a neglect of repentance.

Matthew 7:21-23 is worth looking at, too.

You seem to equate unconditional love with unconditional forgiveness, but this is not accurate, as God is also just and insists upon justice being carried out. This was placed upon Jesus on the cross, but if mankind rejects this forgiveness, then they will still be held accountable for their sins. This is the message that the Bible sends, and clearly so.

As for "let him who is without sin cast the first stone," I think it's a stretch to call this an endorsement of unconditional forgiveness. Jesus certainly denounced hypocrisy, passing judgement when you yourself are subject to the same judgement, but there is a difference between not stoning a prostitute because your conscience weighs upon you and offering unconditional forgiveness to everyone regardless of what they did and whether they are repentant. I should point out that Jesus didn't do that with the Pharisees. Anyway, my argument is based in that Jesus explicitly endorsed forgiveness prompted by repentance, but I can't find where he explicitly endorsed forgiveness in spite of its absense. Sometimes he endorses forgiveness without saying one way or another what the terms are, but this certainly doesn't negate the other places where he does state the terms.

It's also important to note the end of the story where he tells the adulteress, "Go and sin no more." He doesn't simply dismiss her with no questions asked.

In any case, I don't know whether you will even consider this as a response to your point, but please understand that if I am leaving your points or questions untouched, it's not intentional. I am trying to respond here as best as I can.

[fred]

Well then I suggest that YOU and ME start doing something and not wait for God to do it.

I agree with Nacho

I agree with this, Nikolas, and would like to raise the question: What is the best way to go about 'doing something'? We know there's more to do than any of us can solve, thinking of MrColossal's picture, and being who we are. Even if each of us 'sold all his earthly possessions' and donated everything to charity, chances are our limited contribution would be swept away by the next african civil war. We know we can make limited donations to charity, try to influence politicians and public opinions, but are there any better ways of eliminating inhumane living conditions?

I'm posing this as an open question, since I think it's one of the great challenges of our time and something we should set a lot of brilliant minds to. How do we go about it?Ã, 

[Nikolas]

Fred,

For me this is a very difficult question to answer indeed.

A problem I have (theoritical cause mainly it is kinda bullshit, the answer is to just do the best you can), is to where to concetrate your will to help:

i. 3rd world countries? There people die by the thousands, if not millions
ii. What about enviromental problems, globabl warming effect etc...? Without that no earth no life -the end-
iii. Cancer? The words disease of our century probably. Chance are I will die of cancer, or if nyo me, my parents or something.
iv. ...
the list can go on for a long time.

I always keep in the back of my hand that the ultimate thing that one could do is to take their money and go themselves there to make sure nothing is wasted. Cause, ok, I value unicef and oxfam but I have a hunch that a lot is lost in the process. Mainly to do what Bob Geldof did. And while oxfam may compain that the stars are taking over and blah blah, still I think that this guy has done a lot. I would consider him as an example...

[Vince Twelve]

This is an interesting merging of two ongoing threads.  Strangely, I think it fits better in this one:

Amish say they "Forgive" School Shooter

from the article:

"If you have Jesus in your heart and he has forgiven you … [how] can you not forgive other people?" Rhoads said.

Discuss (because it entertains me and I'm not edumacated enough on the matter to discuss it myself).

[Helm]

A person that has lost a loved one to a random cruel act of violence and then can forgive has my outmost respect, be it because he feels "it is all in god's plan" or because of something less supernatural. It is the most difficult thing to do.

[Nacho]

I want someone to explain me how Jesus can say:

"If you have sin in your eye, remove it, because it' s better to be in Heaven with an eye, that keep both in Hell"

If the message is that we are all forgiven...So, hell exists or not? So, we are forgiven but can we be unforgiven? So, which is the point of being forgiven? We do not longer have the original sin? I thought that Mary was the only who was born without the original sin...

Please answers...

[Sylvr]

I want someone to explain me how Jesus can say:

"If you have sin in your eye, remove it, because it' s better to be in Heaven with an eye, that keep both in Hell"

If the message is that we are all forgiven...So, hell exists or not? So, we are forgiven but can we be unforgiven? So, which is the point of being forgiven? We do not longer have the original sin? I thought that Mary was the only who was born without the original sin...

Please answers...

I don't exactly know what you're asking, but I can try to answer this for you. Firstly, where did Jesus say that? It doesn't jump out at me as a passage I've heard before.

If the message is that we are all forgiven...

We all have the opportunity to be forgiven.

So hell exists or not? So, we are forgiven but can we be unforgiven?

Hell certainly exists. It is the place for the people who chose not to believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for the sins of the world. We can not be unforgiven, unless we truly have had a change of heart and sincerely desire to forsake God. (On the other hand, if you do the above, and repent again, God will erase your sin as if nothing happened.)

We do not longer have the original sin? I thought Mary was the only one who was born with out the original sin...

Even once one is forgiven, they still continue to sin because of their (our) human nature. Even if we are without the original sin (which I am personally not sure about it, I should check that one out), we still continue to sin anyway.

Mary was still born with the original sin; she was a normal human being. Nowhere in the Bible does it say specifically that Mary was above normal humanity, enabling her to be Jesus' mother. She was, again, an everyday human just like you or I. The only difference is that she had a willing and servant heart to do whatever God asked of her. Jesus was the only one born without original sin-- backed up by the fact that since he was fully God at the same time, he can't be part of something that he abhors, dispises, use any word you want.

I hope that clears it up for you.

[Mordalles]

"If you have sin in your eye, remove it, because it' s better to be in Heaven with an eye, that keep both in Hell"

"if you have sin your eye": if you are about to do something bad/sinful (and you might have done it before)
"remove it": you are better off avoiding "it", that which will make you sin, which could be anything, from a friend who has a bad influence on you to temptation, etc.
but I'm not sure in which context it is, i'll have to see the rest of the paragraph. I'm just guessing.  I'm no expert on english nor religion. 

[vict0r]

Hell certainly exists. It is the place for the people who chose not to believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for the sins of the world. We can not be unforgiven, unless we truly have had a change of heart and sincerely desire to forsake God. (On the other hand, if you do the above, and repent again, God will erase your sin as if nothing happened.)

Why? I never had a reason to believe this... I never asked him to remove my sins! How can i go to hell when i never asked to come to heaven?

[Nacho]

So, to make a short brief:

The message of the New Gospel is that we are forgiven... or that we have the opportunity to be forgiven. If the message is that we are forgiven, then, there is no Hell, but if the message is that we have the opportunity to be forgiven, there is a Hell. But this Hell is also for those who do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God who came here to redeem all our sins, but he did not very well because our sins are not totally forgiven, because we can go to Hell if we do not believe that what he did was real. So, heaven is just for believers, but also for those aborigens who have never heard of God, and sometimes you can reach heaven if your acts have been benevolent, no matter if you believe or not, but sometimes believing is the only key, but you can also believe in Zeus because he is also God, but only if you accept that Heracles and Jesus were brothers, because the key is that Jesus came here to suffer for all of us.

But don' t piss it off, because if not, you' ll go to Hell, unless you believe.

Thanks for the replies. This thread gave me a clear and complete vision of which is the message of Jesus.

[Sylvr]

but he did not very well because our sins are not totally forgiven

They are completely forgiven each time you ask for forgiveness.

and sometimes you can reach heaven if your acts have been benevolent, no matter if you believe or not, but sometimes believing is the only key

"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes through the Father except through Me." --John 14:6

but you can also believe in Zeus because he is also God, but only if you accept that Heracles and Jesus were brothers

Where did this come from?

[Nacho]

Read the entire thread. I am not using the source of the Bible, but what the believers replied to my questions here.

[SSH]

Nacho, if you really want to twist everyone's words together like that then you can, but you're only fooling yourself. No single person presented that incoherent jumble and don't pretend otherwise.

[Nacho]

No? Read the thread again. When I said that the message of the new Gospel is that we must do to the others what we want the other do to us, you replied that I was confusing the new Gospel with Judaism, and that the message is that "We are all forgiven", which is basically uncoherent with the existence of Hell that some other believers deffend here. When I said that the existance of God is uncoherent because there have been more Gods in history, Babar replied that the Big Guy in every religion is the same. When I told that Chistianism is assuming too much because it only allows Christians to go heaven, some of you replied that God will judge depppending on your acts, not in your beliefs, but some others told me that "Believing in Jesus as the son of God, who came here to redeem our sins is the key". I don' t really think it' s me the one who is fooling myself...

Bible is so contradictory that believers just can' t do anything else that running from one side of the  town to another lighting fires off.

[Becky]

Nacho, I think you're missing SSH's point.  He said no single person put forward all of the ideas contained in your post.  Whilst I personally agree with you that Christianity (and when I say that, I really mean the text of the Bible) has some inherent inconsistencies, shoving several different individuals own opinions and beliefs together and saying "this is what all Christians believe!!" doesn't support your point...it just proves that different people believe different things, and the answer to that is "well duh".

[jetxl]

I second that, Nacho.
Religious people seem to know all the answers because the answer keeps changing for every question.
If you try to prove God exists, you taunt God. If you try to prove God does not exists, you are a heretic and go to hell. If you are shown proof that there is no God, it's the work of the devil and a lie.
Yup, perfect clause, except there still is no proof God exists, which leads us back to the devil and a lie. Catch 22.

[SSH]

Actually, the existence of a God is impossible to prove or disprove, its a matter of faith. So I dunno what jet is on about.

[Helm]

Epistemologically, lack of proof constitutes disprooval until there's reason to believe otherwise. Therefore for those that enjoy rationality and things making sense, until the attributes of this god thing can be scrutinized and its premise tested, god is nothing more than a vague concept of antithetical terms like 'forever', 'all-powerful' and 'omniescent', not even a theory.

Having faith in something doesn't make it exist, it just makes you have faith in it. For example, I have faith that everything will work out okay, that people are gonna be good and that we'll all be smiling. I call this optimism. No gods required, none tested. If you have faith in a God, that doesn't mean you can say he exists. 'Existing' is a term we use for scrutable entities or concepts.

I am not a very rational person so I don't really contest god-talk so much, but just saying.