Christianity VS White Magic (Only for Spiritualist/WhiteMagicians & Christians)

CaptainBinky · Tue 17/10/2006 20:05:30

Quote from: Babar on Tue 17/10/2006 18:24:39
Once again, I'll say that I have my proofs, and I have no evidence to the contrary. My proof, however, is not your proof. It wouldn't work for you. Also, if someone can prove to me the inexistence of God, I'll accept that. Although, as you said, it's not possible. If someone does not believe in God, there will be little that can prove the existence of God to them. I find it very, very, very unlikely that someone will come up with an equation and say "Therefore God exists!" and everyone will accept.

I find this interesting. To me, the possible existence of some God who created the Universe, the Earth, and everything seems unlikely. I'm not sure why I feel this way, I certainly can't put my finger on an exact time and place where I figured that religion wasn't for me. So this puts me at the opposite side of the fence to you. I need evidence of God (which like you say - an equation that proves it is unlikely) to believe it. Whereas you say you need evidence of his non-existence to believe that. I wonder if you, like me, cannot put your finger on exactly when and where your belief originated.

If you can rationalise why you believe what you do, then in many ways you're in a better position than me because you it means you have beliefs that you can explain and make sense in your life. Me, I just have a nagging suspicion that what I see around me is a product of chance but I couldn't tell someone what lead me to this belief.

What I would like to know though, from someone who is religious... To me, since everything is a product of chance - that a person exists or a tree, or a frog, or a blade of grass is all equally amazing. And therefore everything, rocks, trees, animals are equally "sacred" for lack of a better word. I've always had a problem in that the Creationist angle seems to place humans on a pedestal - God created man in his own image etc. I don't know that this is the case, or it's just my ignorance of religion, but I'd like to know. Also - do dogs go to Heaven?

edit: I'm not taking the piss there in that last bit - I do actually want to know.

lemmy101 · Tue 17/10/2006 21:12:06

I agree entirely with what Binky is saying, and I think this whole "truth/nontruth" thing very interesting though I would take this to further. The idea that the world being round being truth before it was proven that it is true, I guess comes down to your definition of truth.

To take an extreme example, I can say I'm holding a pen in my hand and know this is truth. But then... what if I'm wired up into some computer simulation somewhere,? and I'm in fact not holding a pen at all? If that was the case, then I just *believe* I'm holding a pen.

If something as fundemental as this could be argued as being a belief, as unlikely scenario as it may seem (tho much more likely in my mind than some elements of major religions), then how can anyone truly label anything as absolute truth?

In my mind the only way God could be considered an absolute truth would be if Imet God youself, had a conversation with God, and was told without any shadow of a doubt that God does exist. But then maybe I've just gone crazy and imagined the whole thing? I'm sure this is what many others would believe to be the truth.

I find it hard to label anything as cold hard truth, even these things which have been proven. The Earth is round? Well I'm pretty damn sure it is, I'd say it's as near a certainty as anything... but all the information I've got to go off is that other people have been to space and seen it, other people have travelled around the world and ended up at the same place, and I've seen photographs of a spherical object in space that I'm told is called Earth. Having not travelled around the Earth, or being blasted into space to look down on the Earth myself, I can only truly say I believe the Earth is round. The only difference is that since I trust greatly in the reason for this belief, and those who have provided me with the evidence I've based this belief off, I attribute 'truth' to it... and I'd be VERY surprised if it ever turned out the Earth was indeed flat.

In my mind this is the same reason people believe in God, Christians or otherwise. They trust in the priests, parents, and the holy books themselves, or they trust in their inability to attribute random chance to the wonders of creation, that they attribute truth to it. But in my mind, as paradoxal as it is, the only real truth is that there is no such thing as truth -- only belief.

Though, not to knock those who believe in it, I'd take the evidence surrounding the shape of the Earth as more indication of truth than an ancient book written by many people, where the main proviso seems to be that you should believe because there's no evidence.

Helm · Tue 17/10/2006 21:16:02

The bible isn't evidence either, if you're using the word 'evidence' formally.

Mordalles · Tue 17/10/2006 21:40:09

in fact, i'll rather not get involved.

MrColossal · Tue 17/10/2006 21:48:33

I hope you're joking, Mordalles.

calacver · Tue 17/10/2006 21:52:44

There is a movie I thought was really interesting that sorta goes with this thread.

- Exorcism of Emily Rose -

The meaning behind the girl's posession is that people do not believe in God anymore. So through her posession of six demons (including lucifer) it would show people that the devil (and demons) exist and prooving then that God also exists.

It is aparrently based on a true story. (I've done no research on this, just thought it went with the thread).

Mordalles · Tue 17/10/2006 21:59:07

delete this post.

MrColossal · Tue 17/10/2006 22:11:57

Calacver:

The character of Emily Rose (a fictitious name) is based on the true story of Anneliese Michel, a young German Christian woman who died in 1976 after unsuccessful attempts to cure her from the alleged state of demonic possession with the means of psychotropic drugs. The court accepted the version according to which she was epileptic, refusing to accept the idea of supernatural involvement in this case. Two priests involved in the exorcism on her, as well as her parents, were found guilty of manslaughter resulting from negligence and received sentences, generating controversy. The girl's grave is still a place of pilgrimage for many Christians.

A sick person is killed by ignorant people.

calacver · Tue 17/10/2006 22:17:58

You just read through this too.

http://www.fotofetch.com/

SSH · Tue 17/10/2006 22:57:51

Quote from: Nacho on Tue 17/10/2006 18:22:21
That' s not a fact, that' s a... a something... which does not imply anything.

It is EVIDENCE. I never said it was a fact. Stop throwing straw men at me. It is "an outward sign", an "indication". In a court, if there are 10 people saying X happened and 1 sayign Y, then the court will tend to side with the 10. It would be a logical fallacy to say that it was PROOF, but then I DID NOT SAY THAT. Strawmen are a logical fallacy, too, btw.

Nacho · Tue 17/10/2006 23:14:11

There is a german book that is very accurate about describing the life of gnomes and trolls... Is that book an evidence that these creatures exist?

Helm · Tue 17/10/2006 23:41:49

The God that makes a young girl suffer six demons inside her just so that can show the world EEEEVIIIIIL (a Godly creation, since god created everything, right?) and therefore God exists is truly a colossal asshole.

Yea I've seen the movie, yea God offers her a 'choice' in the matter. I've said before there are no choices when god makes us toasters do what toasters do.

MrColossal · Tue 17/10/2006 23:46:59

Quote from: Helm on Tue 17/10/2006 23:41:49
colossal asshole.

I take offense to that!

Helm · Wed 18/10/2006 00:13:01

Oh I forgot, where you come from I'd get keelhauled if I called someone 'colasshole'

MrColossal · Wed 18/10/2006 00:45:56

Quote from: Helm on Tue 17/10/2006 21:16:02
The bible isn't evidence either, if you're using the word 'evidence' formally.

Actually helm, the bible is evidence because it says it is. If a rational human being were presented with any other "proof" of this nature for a different case they would not accept it.

Babar · Wed 18/10/2006 03:09:05

Binky, if someone absolutely DOES NOT ACCEPT the existence of God, no amount of "evidence" will prove it. The Bible is just a book by ancient men, Christians are christians because they fear, the entire universe came about by chance, and the God guy you met was just a magician.

Even if you met God face to face, how would that prove anything?
Skeptic: "God, make me blue"
God: "Ok" *POOF*
Skeptic: "That's no proof! You used drugs! Make this room and everything in it upside down"
God: "Ok" *POOF*
Skeptic: "What happened? You didn't do anything. Everything is still straight"
God: "No, you are upside-down as well. So the room appears the right way for you"
Skeptic: "That's just a cop-out!"

If you are going to believe that the existence of God is a logical impossibility, you can make any "evidence" to the contrary. And I wasn't specifically referring to books and numbers of believers

I don't know about Creationist angles and Man in God's image, because I don't follow the Bible. If you want dogs in heaven, I'm sure they'll be there.

Helm · Wed 18/10/2006 03:13:56

Babar, what you seem to be suggesting is closer to you being some sort of panetheistic solipsist where what you desire happens and you are your own god, than anything christian-like. I makes me happy to know that the christians burned people like you at the stake a few years ago.

CaptainBinky · Wed 18/10/2006 10:18:04

Quote from: Babar on Wed 18/10/2006 03:09:05
Binky, if someone absolutely DOES NOT ACCEPT the existence of God, no amount of "evidence" will prove it. The Bible is just a book by ancient men, Christians are christians because they fear, the entire universe came about by chance, and the God guy you met was just a magician.

Well I don't absolutely not accept the exisitence of God. Like I said earlier, I'm fairly open-minded. I just don't see any overwhelming evidence to support the idea. A religious friend of mine once said "but everything around you is evidence" to which I replied "but you could use that argument for any idea. I could say everything around us is evidence that aliens seeded the Earth with a Genesis device"

Quote from: Babar on Wed 18/10/2006 03:09:05
I don't know about Creationist angles and Man in God's image, because I don't follow the Bible. If you want dogs in heaven, I'm sure they'll be there.

Smashing. Dogs go to heaven then (and cats go to hell).

calacver · Wed 18/10/2006 13:22:32

Does God exist?
Is There a God?

Just feuling this even more. I'm not an out and out christian, the only reason I most likely have a belief in GOD is because it was drilled into me from tender age by my parents forcing me to church every sunday. So I'm not really on a side here.

And I also think debating about religion on the internet is stupid, since most 'smart-mouths' here do not have any knowledge of what they speak. They simply rip christianity and god without knowing what it is, as the thread prooves over 20 pages. That is how christianity has been dealt with over the centuries by non-believers and those that lacks knowledge of what is it. As you all are extremely confused and really knows nothing. I myself do not know enough and am definitely not knowlegdable person on the subject, hence I will not give an opinion. The best any of you can do is go and talk to a priest, or at least someone that has the knowledge and passion to explain it. Not debate with other internet geeks.

Nacho · Wed 18/10/2006 14:00:53

Thanks for the links, I laughed a lot...