Christianity VS White Magic (Only for Spiritualist/WhiteMagicians & Christians)

[big brother]

You'd be such a downer to take psychotropic drugs with.

"That tree's not breathing, it's just the effects of Psilocybin manifesting in visual hallucinations."

Have a little imagination. If God really created everything, including sex, emotions, and humor, he wouldn't be the dreary, austere Deity you envision.

You say you're unable to accept the existence of God regardless of personal experience, yet you mock those who won't accept the non-existence of a god, no matter the rhetorical proof?

And yes, personal experience is the least expandable proof, but isn't it the most powerful for you individually, as you inhabit a single consciousness?

EDIT: A better phrase for "non-existence" would be "lack of".
By "mock" I mean "belittle". You're right; I can't tell if you're really laughing over the internet. Apologies for my poor word choice.

[Helm]

I don't really know what to reply to you with. Where's my imagination? Where's my sense of sportmanship, where's my joy of living, where's my spunky disposition? We're discussing God here and you sound like a self-help tape.

You say you're unable to accept the existence of God regardless of personal experience, yet you mock those who won't accept the non-existance of a god, no matter the rhetorical proof?

I'd like it to be noted that I didn't mock anyone's faith. I might not believe in the same things a theist does, and I might find their belief aburd in cases, but I'm not pointing and laughing here.

Also, I didn't say I'm unable to accept something. I said if some phenomenae occured, I'd first look at more probable reasons for their existence before jumping to, oh manufacturing of a freakin' Deity and a whole system of faith around it! Check your double-negations at 'won't accept the non-existence' and all you're left with it 'accept the existence' and that is a matter of burden of proof. The burden of proof is on the one that claims this 'god' thing exists. You meet me on the street and you say 'hello'. 'Hello mr Big Brother'. 'Today I realized Zoothoole exists!' I don't know what this is. I've never encountered this Zoothoole concept before, I am unaware of its various attributes. Please explain to me what this concept is, and why it might exist, and what its existence explains that is inexplicable otherwise with far tidier answers, even the dreaded oh the most dreaded 'I don't know'. 

[Erenan]

What sort of experience could it be that would seem to directly suggest that such a huge deal such as an omnipotent, eternal and all-powerful creator exists, I don't know what it could be.

Well, damn. Hell if I know. I haven't experienced one. I actually wasn't talking about myself on that point.

Erenan, take yourself out of the social context in which you were born and raised in, and put yourself in the jungle, little jungle boy. Now repeat that scenario that made you go 'yes, God exists', while having no knowledge of that this god concept is, and tell me if you theoretically would still arrive at the same conclusion. Of course, this type of ignorance would also mean that if you saw thunder strike you wouldn't think 'electrical discharge' you'd think 'holy fuck!' but let's not put the two in the same bag: God doesn't require any sort of indoctorination to believe in him. does he?

I don't remember a scenario, dramatic or otherwise, that made me believe in God, so it's difficult for me to do what you ask. It's also difficult to do what you ask because I find it difficult to forget everything I've been taught about God. I'd like to do that some day, but I don't have the time right at this moment to go hide somewhere and ponder deeply about this. But I'm curious... Are you suggesting I do this because you have an interest in my personal beliefs? Or is it in the interest of the discussion in this thread? And I'm asking you this honestly, because at this point I'm not sure where to go except to talk about myself, and not even about why I believe in God, as I don't even consider myself a theist any longer.

[Helm]

Erenan, I was making a general point for the purposes of this thread, that there really isn't much that can happen to you out of the blue that - what the majority of people-  would consider the logical approach would then entail the inventing of a Deity and system of faith to explain it. This goes to say that people don't believe in God because evidence is there.

This does not mean your personal experiences aren't of probable interest to me, and others participating in this thread. The point of view of what obviously is a bright person, who seems to be going from a theist background to... something else, is very interesting. I'd say go right ahead.

[Erenan]

I stopped pretending. For a long time, I held the belief that God was listening to me and that he would sometimes speak to me if I concentrated hard enough on his voice and focused my concern as purely as possible on adoring God and on what he wanted for my life, leaving my own desires not just on the backburner, but off the stove entirely. In retrospect, it comes as no surprise that frustration followed when I found that the closest things I ever experienced to hearing God's voice were subtle and extremely vague emotional impressions and what felt like my own thoughts. I pretended that this was acceptable to me. Eventually, the frustration built up so much that I stopped praying entirely. If I was made for a relationship with God, then why would it be so incredibly vague and unclear? Emotionally, I felt as though I had no relationship at all. Rationally, I had to come to that conclusion as well. So I started thinking... God isn't talking to me. I don't even know if he can hear me at all. When I talk with my friends, we discuss things that are relevant to us. They relate to me in all the ways that I am an individual. They recognize my artistry, my personhood, my ideas. I can't think of a time when God clearly spoke to me concerning myself as a person. So where's the relationship? I stopped praying. It was like trying to woo a girl who was unwilling or incapable of recognizing that I exist at all. Now I'm floating within worldview-in-fluxus. I lack an active belief in God, but at the same time I do not presume to know that there is nothing spiritually Romantic or Fantastic to the universe. And this is the dichotomy of my mind at the present moment. I am torn between giving myself over to Materialism and what I might call the General Fiction life and holding onto a Romantic hope that there is some greater dramatic goings-on that I might become involved in, so that reality might become Fantasy, and everything be proven poetry. But how to search for ancient secrets? Where to begin? And how on earth could I do so whilst pursuing a career and a marriage? I don't know. So I sit and compose music, write stories, and develop computer games about the things that I want to find in life and fear that I never shall.

I don't know. I hope this provokes some thoughts in somebody.

[Helm]

As far as a different person in another part of the world can relate:

After losing (or never having, as in my case) your faith, you endorse wildly positivistic beliefs for a while. THINGS ARE UNDERSTANDABLE IF YOU STUDY THEM and so on. Those lead to the eventual experience that we aren't really capable of studying ourselves (questions of epistemology, what is knowledge, so on) and that looking inside and trying to make sense is like biting your own teeth. The words 'spirit', or 'free will', start to become as meaningless as 'god'. To degrees, the word 'I' also.

I'm sure these concepts are not new to you, just as that there's atheists around the world wasn't new to you before. But it's one thing to be vaguely aware of a concept (like someone pointing at a map and telling you 'there's china'), and another to experience it to degrees inside yourself (going to china). I believe that such a thing will happen to you, maybe soon maybe not. When this happens, your positivistic beliefs and your relation to clean causality will come in friction with that things are infinitely more complex than our consciousness can hope to understand. This will end that period more or less, and you'll be left as close to a solipsist as you'll ever be. There's a wonderful existential crisis in there for you, completely alone against the realization that you cannot know nothing dependably. Out of this epistemological dispondency, your system will reconfigure itself to survive. And it will probably base itself on keeping you happy.

Finally you'll do the things that keep you happy, without excess theological baggage or existential wondering. Perhaps after this stage -where I am at- there's more peril awaiting, that's all I know this far.

[Obi]

[Haddas]

Was that really necessary, obi?

[Obi]

Yes, yes it was. It made me feel better at this time of great sadness.

[neelhound]

I am not a christian but I think white magic and dark magic exist in a way that they come from inside you and it is only 'dark' if you are.

[SSH]

Why?

[CaptainBinky]

I lack an active belief in God, but at the same time I do not presume to know that there is nothing spiritually Romantic or Fantastic to the universe.

Well here's the thing, I don't believe in the existence of God (at least not in the religious sense), but I would regard myself as quite spiritual. I think there's enough mystery and wonder in the universe to get romantic about without religion. Who knows what happens when you die? No-one knows obviously. For all I know, each and every creature on earth (and beyond) is part of a 6th dimensional being that we cannot perceive. We are merely representations of its component parts as visible in a 4 dimensional universe. Much like a single tree is to an orchard or a single coral to a reef. Perhaps all our consciousnesses are bound in this way and so when our physical bodies die our "souls" would then effectively live on. Who knows? There's about a bazillion theories you could come up with which are all fascinating in their own way. It doesn't have to be all gloomy just because you don't believe in God. So it becomes the sort of thing that comes up in conversations in the pub once in a while, but I can't say I *need* to find out all the answers. Does it really matter? Live a good life, be good to your friends and family, be happy, and you'll find all the answers eventually.

I don't know. I hope this provokes some thoughts in somebody.

It did.

Cap'n Binky

[Erenan]

For the record, I am happy and don't consider the world completely gloomy.

[EagerMind]

I think there's enough mystery and wonder in the universe to get romantic about without religion. Who knows what happens when you die? No-one knows obviously.

I somewhat recently had this put to me in a way I had never thought of before. If the law of conservation of energy is correct (energy is neither created nor destroyed, only altered in form), than something must happen to us - or at least to our energy - when we die. Hopefully we don't just dissipate as heat as a result of some sort of cosmic/spiritual "friction".

[Helm]

Actually, second law of thermodynamics. From hot to cold, never the other way around. Entropy gradually increasing in a closed system. It makes perfect sense for the human system to shut down and completely fade away after death.

[EagerMind]

Ah yes, and so goes the universe. But if the universe is an isolated system, what set things in motion to begin with? Will it happen again? If the universe isn't an isolated system, then what is it reaching equilibrium with? Does the universe even obey the second law of thermodynamics? And what are the implications for smaller systems like us?

Anyway, aren't biological organisms open systems, feeding from the environment and dumping waste into it? If I can keep extracting useful energy from the environment in exchange for my entropy, then why should I ever have to die? Interesting that science doesn't really have an answer either. And if people are just simple thermodynamic systems, then why are they saddled with these inefficient, irrational conscious - in effect, what makes us who we are?

The ironic thing is that once you reach the conclusion that nothing is knowable, science and reason - those tools so fervently brandished to argue against the existence of god - are suddenly no better than religion. In fact, would it be wrong to say that faith is required for science and reason be conducted in a meaningful way? After all, how do you know that this is reality, that this isn't a figment of your imagination, that you're not hooked up to the matrix? You don't take it on ... faith ... do you?

[Helm]

Ah yes, and so goes the universe. But if the universe is an isolated system, what set things in motion to begin with?

I don't know.

Will it happen again?

I don't know.

If the universe isn't an isolated system, then what is it reaching equilibrium with?

I don't know. What I know is what I got time for: I hold no epistemological belief. Every theory is a theory and some results are trustworthy because they work thus far. Maybe tomorrow they'll stop working. This means I take everything with a grain of salt. It's called humor, the thing big brother said I was bereft of? I lack faith, but I have humor. I can laugh at the senselessness of it all, and I'm just fine not knowing all the answers.

I'll go with what seems to be occuring, not a strong belief, but it seems more likely to me that when we die, we rot and we deposit our prime material back into the soil. Maybe a small miracle happens inside each and every one of us when we die, perhaps we go to heaven. I don't know, you don't know, I'll just take the odds, man.

I put one foot after the other, thusly I walk. Now, there's no epistemological certainty that walking will work this way the next step I take. Yet I take my chances, 'cause I got places to be, fun to have. Otherwise I ponder and I remain motionless. And that's just positively entropic now, isn't it?

Does the universe even obey the second law of thermodynamics? And what are the implications for smaller systems like us?

I'm no scientist, so I don't know what a 'smaller system' is, as the way I see it - it's called holistic viewpoint - everything is connected, everything interfaces with everything else. There is no closed system. There's only one whole. I enjoy spitting in the face of the second law of thermodynamics, let's say it has a face, right? I enjoy that, I enjoy the magic, and I like knowing that I don't know much. I hold no truths. You're debating this with the wrong person, if you want to get down to it. However, I find... ontological persuits, about the very beginning of reality, the metaphysics and all that, to be a waste of my time. So I'll just go with the odds on this one.

Anyway, aren't biological organisms open systems, feeding from the environment and dumping waste into it?

As I explain, we're all one huge system. The concept of a closed system is only a theoretical one.

If I can keep extracting useful energy from the environment in exchange for my entropy, then why should I ever have to die?

That's a wonderful question. If you can keep sustaining the mechanism that uses energy, your whole body going, or at least the relevant parts, you won't have to die ever! Get to it.

Interesting that science doesn't really have an answer either. And if people are just simple thermodynamic systems, then why are they saddled with these inefficient, irrational conscious - in effect, what makes us who we are?

I don't know. I think the ghost of consciousness is an evolutionary sidestep arising from a very complex self-programming system that finds systematic use of its own recursiveness. Does that make sense? The Consciousness is a very small part of our brainpower. Abstract thinking, disparate connections... we have a lot of tools that we keep refining because they work. We're still around, so they work. I don't see anything unnatural about us being here and being relatively at the top of the food chain.

The ironic thing is that once you reach the conclusion that nothing is knowable, science and reason - those tools so fervently brandished to argue against the existence of god - are suddenly no better than religion.

I have absolutely no problem with this concept. I just think critical analysis, as faulty as it is, words, as wrong as they are, all these things you pit against faith, they have the odds going for them. We're still around, and it ain't because of faith. These things are not reliable, but they work for the here and now. I don't ask you - I don't ask from myself - an enduring faith in logic. I just gamble that it works, and as long as it does, I'm a happy camper. I don't want to be montionless pondering everything. It's not very fun.

In fact, would it be wrong to say that faith is required for science and reason be conducted in a meaningful way?

What is required, is faith, yes. Faith that playful gamble that the world will still be working tomorrow as it is working today. So we can explore it, make good of our time and generally be restless as life is before it's extinguished to feed new life. That's so much more conductive, for me, than talking to a manufactured deity that creates more issues than he solves. No problem with faith in walking.

After all, how do you know that this is reality, that this isn't a figment of your imagination, that you're not hooked up to the matrix? You don't take it on ... faith ... do you?

I don't know, man.