Democratic Socialism

[shitar]

Well, I haven't seen democracy or socialism ANYwhere really working.

The democratic/capitalistic system we have here in Norway works great. In fact, it has been claimed to be the best country to live in, three years in a row.

What factors is "best" based off of?

[Las Naranjas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Literacy, health, GNP, associated factors. Uncontroversiallly quantifiable stuff.

[FieryPhoenix]

As a bleeding heart liberal, the political mess in my country breaks my heart.

This display of causality is startling.

Forgive the poor writing, I was rotting my brain (or growing my brain) and watching something on the tv as I was typing. Ã, As I am doing now- danm.

[shitar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Literacy, health, GNP, associated factors. Uncontroversiallly quantifiable stuff.

I call h4x.

All you vikings are h4x0rz.

[shitar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Literacy, health, GNP, associated factors. Uncontroversiallly quantifiable stuff.

What about partying? Hmmmm? You're like last, kthxbai ._.

[Helm]

There's lots of reasons Norway, Sweden and such have arrived at such happy states of life, and it has to do with a lot of factors that do not apply to other parts of the world. You can't apply the same sort of political system in Turkey and expect it to prosper in the same way. All this stuff is a lot beyond my ability to coherently discuss, so I'm sorta forced to information-snipe people when they write things. I can't offer a coherent point of view of my own, as I don't really have concrete political beliefs anymore.

I used to be democratic-socialist, very red in economical matters, very libertarian in social matters, but I... I guess I grew tired of having political opinions, when I realized they were just opinions, like party-tricks. I've read a few books and I've spoken to a few people, so what. human relations are infinitely complex and any simplification is just dumb. I defined myself with dumb stuff that carried no real weight in life. I abandoned morality labeling at the same time I abandoned named political belief. My upbringing and social programming will forever remain strongly liberty and equality based, but that doesn't say much, 99% of you people in here are just like me.

[Akumayo]

But the 1% who aren't like you, they change the world.  They cause Revolution, Genocide, War, and other Capitalised words.

[Helm]

I don't feel that way, empowered comrade of fervent 15 years of age. I feel war and such occurs because it occurs, it has to occur and there's a predetermined path towards it and everything else. The way the world works I think is holistic, everything interfaces with everything else. There is no masterplan, there are no people that change the world any more than the world is ready to change and uses these people. It's pointless to manufacture leaders as much as it is to manufacture hope. They occur when they have to occur and do what they do and things go in their spirally way towards the future. Headless monster operating under the illusion of a comfortable masterplan. In the Marxism you're supposed to be studying now, in your red phase, that's part of what is called Historical Materialism.

[Akumayo]

To a large degree I agree with everything you've said, Helm.  Thank you for your insight.

[shitar]

Helm for president-- err, Marshall? lol

[Nacho]

Some of the thoughts have been funny to read, but it's  time to be serious...

Communism, socialism... does it work? Who created the bases of communism? Under my point of view we should take the doctrine into consideration if the creator was a superior intelligence, a scientific who demostrated that it works, or even, by admiration (even if he was wrong), a saint who put in practice the doctrine on his own by sharing its money with the poors and proletarians.

Was Marx some of that things? No... Marx was a poor student and a failed poet. His life was full of dissorders (Too much drinking, too much parties and too much of spending money... money that he never earned) in such degree that he lost relation with his parents because they didn' t allow to give him more money for his parties. The last letter his father sent to him before dying was "Karl, please... relax, spent less money".

An example of how good manager he was is that two of their children suicided and two other died by famine or lack of medical care (Because daddy wasn't able to stop going to parties, dreinking alcohol and using laudanum)

He had an illegitimate son, and his friend Engels had to recognise it to avoid problems. Engels sustended Marx' s style of live, because he was so useless to keep it without help. Only once the friendship was close to be broken... When Engel's wife died, Marx wrote to him "I'm sorry... and ah! Send me more money!".

He claimed that the cancer of the society was the bourgeoisie, but his style of life was the one of a new rich (paid by Engels), educating his kids as bourgeoises, with piano and english lessons (Lessons that were not very useless when Engels stopped sending money and then they died of famine, but hell... knowing how to performance Mozart...) He also set the bases of antisemitical nazism (Funny, because he was born Jew), because his style of life forced him to treat with Jewish lenders...

Really... I find Einstein' s theories interesting because I consider him a superior intelligence. I find Mendel' s theories interesting because he has prooven to use a scientific method that make them appealing... And I Saint Therese' s example as worth to have in consideration because she preached with the example and went to India to fight poverty. I find nothing of that in Marx. He was not brilliant, or admirable. His theories are just a reflex of his own frustrations and fears... God, he was not even close to a factory, or never treated with "the proletarians".

Economy must not be left or right. Any specific problem might need a social or liberal approach. Extreme left is as worse as extreme right...

If you focus on covering all the vital necessities... what happens with the other? Akumayo... Do you like music? Do you think that in a socialist country there is a "Statal Rock band"? Do you preffer Reggae? Do you think the Kim Jon Il, or the Castro, or the Evo Morales of the Unites States is going to say... "Ok, our youth needs Reggae... I am going to give funds to the "Statal Reggae Band" Do you think it' s going to be a necessary a "Adventure graphic statal department" if we are ruled by socialism? Do you imagine a "statal department of porn", or a "Statal department of carbonated sweet drinks"?

Because if you are serious about socialism, then, you should get used to stop listening music, seeing the playboy in magazine stands, drinking coke and play Splinter Cell... that' s over. Might sound like a fascist apocaliptic propaganda, but it's true. If there is a central focus of decission, that entity will finally loss contact with the real necessities, it will fall into lack of productivity and will collapse. Also, one of the best things that socialism has, apparently, the end of social strata, is a complete lie. There hasn' t been in modern history more difference between social strata than between the members of "the party" and the rest of the people than in the USSR.

Also... how do you expect to progress in a socialistic society? Do you expect Bill Gates (or whoever) to expend 18 hours per day working in developing an OS, if he is going to be paid EXACTLY the same than the other functionary that works with him and work nothing? Do you think he' ll feel incentivated to improve something if the "Party" is going to take his invention as soon as its shown to be effective?

Do you know the pyramid of necessities of Maslow? Socialism is trying to cover the two first steps, no matter the cost, and nothing else... It works, and it covers the vital necessities and the security necessities for a time, but that' s just an illussion, it finally falls into lack of productivity and all the pyramid collapse.

[Las Naranjas]

I attack Farlander personally and contribute nothing but ad hominem arguments,

[Andail]

Western, capitalistic, Christian countries always manage to pin-point in what name a certain atrocity or failure is/was carried out, as long as it's not their own.
If there is a war with a religious pretext going on, they can specify that it's a matter of islamic fundamentalism. If a far-away nation is opressing their people, they can blame the socialist regime.

To me, much of what has led to the situation of the world today, with unbalanced distribution of natural resources (due to colonies in the past, globalisation, out-sorucing etc), global warming and pollution, and the majority of all wars, can without hesitation be blamed on Western, Christian Capitalism. Then why don't we say that capiltalism is fundamentally flawed? Why don't we say "capitalism is good in theory, but hasn't worked in reality"?

When millions of people are starving to death in Africa, it's because they can't control their own products, their own market or their own resources (there are plenty of food and water, just not properly distributed).

[InCreator]

The democratic/capitalistic system we have here in Norway works great. In fact, it has been claimed to be the best country to live in, three years in a row.

Anything could work in Norway. Or Sweden.

* No hostile neighbors
* Location at the edge of the world
* Terrible geometry
* Cold!
* People come with Scandinavian Brainsâ,,¢ and Cold Natureâ,,¢ as standard equipment
(No crazy religiousity as in Middle East, No crazy temperament as in Latin America, No built-in aggresive mode as in Russia or near-idiotic blind patriotism of Americans)

[Nacho]

@Las Naranjas: That lonely quote implies that Marx' philosophy respected the bourgeosie? No... I can also quote kind quotes to Hitler towards the Jews (specifically to the Jewish doctor which took care of his mother) and towards the British Empire... And I don' t think we might consider Hitler as friend of Jews and Brits... I think, I might be wrong in this too...

I' ve studied Marx... In an universitary degree... ok? And their beliefs are clear. The businessmen earn money by stealing the appreciation of valour of the goods the proletarians make. Therefore money will gather in the hands of few people, and the masses of poor proletarians will finally revolt to finish with the bourgeosie. If that is not considering the capitalism evil, then what is it? He was the man fighting agains phantoms, projecting his frustrations into a social strata HE WANTED TO BELONG TO, using the feelings of the candid and uncultivated proletarian, a group of people he never personally meet.

And please... When you reply to posts made by me, in spite of typing that "How much you respect me" (Thing that I appreciate)... Do show respect.

When I said that was illogical to call "American football" football, you told me that everyone trying to give the european football the monopolistic right to be called football "was an idiot". Now, first, you tell me I am venting frustrations... Your post has the overall feeling that I am too dare to post about something I have no idea, assuming, I pressume, that I haven't read Marx... But I did. Damn, I even I made exams about him. You say that "I prefer to argue about phantoms" than being enlighted by your clairvoyance.

And finally you accuse my post to be a logical fallacy. Amazing... In first place, it is you who incur into logical fallacy. You say that "Farlander attacks the Marxists by attacking Marx, but Marx was not really a Marxist, therefore, he is wrong" when what I really say is "Marx was a cunt... everyone who used anything even tangentially related with him to create a philosophy must have been nuts"

I think everyone must agree that any adult firmly believing the original concepts of socialism/communism/maoism/blah blah... must be nuts. I am not saying that everyone voting democrats, or a moderate left party is nuts. So, please, if you are going to attempt to change my worlds into something like "Farlander hates the left, he is a fascist" to sum all the left sided members against me, reconsider it, it' s not going to work.

I say extreme left people are nuts. The problem is that extreme left people are seen as "cool", have lots of website in the internet homaging him, and their faces printed in t-shirts.

I can' t imagine someone with a B&W image of Hitler printed in his t-shirt, with a quote "Till the last bullet!", but I see t-shirts about an assassin called "Ché Guevara" everyday with the lovely "Till the victory, allways!!!" Why? Extreme left has been as genocide, greedy and dangerous as Fascism, but no one seems to care. People in this thread has shown admiration to Guevara, and I' m sure many of them respect Castro, Morales and Chavez. I would feel very sorry if any of the members commits the mistake of showing admiration towards Hitler, Mussolini or Pinochet. Hitler, Mussolini and Pinochet were crap, make no mistake... But Stalin, Castro or Chávez are not better.

So... Akumayo. If you want to be a socialist, great. But if you move too far to extreme, you' ll have to assume that you are as nuts as the people seen in American history-X, just that in the other side.

And Petter... "Famine in Africa can be blamed to capitalism"... Why? West capitalist counties ore ok. America is Ok, Spain is ok, Sweden is Ok... Why Africa isn' t? The overall theory is that "the greedy West capitalist countries have exploited the resources of the poor countries to starve"... let' s analize this. When Africa started to go bad? Aproximatelly during the XXth century. What happened before? A system of colonies... Greedy and Fascist? Ok... I agree. But at least people had something to eat. There was famine in India before the brits left? I think now... Was it bad in Congo, when the Belgians were there? No... The example can follows... Iraq is another example. So... The theory of the "colonization is evil" collapses (Unless I am wrong and India was worst before than now...) If Africa is going bad is because most of the countries are ruled by communists warlords who preffer to pillage the international aid (95% given by CAPITALIST WEST countries) than giving food to their population.

Now, if you want to refute this with the next point of the international socialist youth manifesto "Poor counties are dying because we steal their resources", then you should look to Kuwait, Saudi Arabia or Qatar... I don' t think those are poor countries, do you? And no one of the enterprises exploiting the gas resources are national. No... enterprises of the west are under a legal enviroment which makes impossible to "steal" resources. Resources are wasted when the (Chávez/Morales/Hussein/Jon Il... use the example you prefer) start to make their personal fortunes bigger by stealing national resources. Do you know that the biggest fortunes or the world are, or have been, Castro's, Hussein's, Arafat's or Mobutu' s? Do you know that people is dying in North Korea while Kim Jon Il wastes 75% of the national income in military spents?

As you say that capitalism does not work, but are a smart person, and you might know all that flaws that the left has, I would like to read the solution you propose to sollute all this...

[Andail]

Why do you put Castro and Chavez in the same category as Hitler, Stalin and Pinochet? I mean, let's call spade a spade here. Ideologies put aside, these people don't play in the same ballpark when it comes to what they've done and represented. Quite appalling comparison, frankly.

[Akumayo]

Wow, lots of new points brought up.  I feel cut down.

Nacho:

I hadn't really looked at it in that light.  Perhaps, no, for sure, I should've looked it over more before commiting myself to it [Socialism].  I suppose I'm too easily infatuated.  Looking it back over, you're right, it could not work for long, and while it was in power, it would not do very well.  Socialism seems ideal for a very small community, not a nation.  You've cut me down from my "empowered" state, thanks for being a voice of reason.

Nacho:

I think I'm starting to really appreciate Helm's earlier statement.  Political stances are largely like "party tricks".  The far left, and far right too, for that matter, are publicity stunts, it would seem.  Something to balance out a problem within the individual.  Politics looks like a game more than anything else.  Who can get a monopoly first?  How long can they keep it?

I'm very glad I posted this here.  I know most of the people here are intelligent, and have insight into many issues, and you've proven yourselves many times over.  Thank you.
Again, maybe I'm too easily infatuated with new opinions, but this really seems to make sense to me, what's forming in my mind.  Similar to what Helm said, really.  Influence does not come through politics, not really.  It won't change all that much, because it's fueled by other things, circumstances, coincidental occurances, that's what opens the door for change.  Revolution is a game, people are the pawns, even the one's in power.  Thanks again guys, particularly Helm and Nacho; you've helped me sort my thoughts on the issue.

[Nacho]

I am glad of this latest post by Akumayo  . Voting is not like choosing a football favourite team. You must get away of someone who declares himself "conservative, socialist, marxist" or whatever... That' s why there are campaings... Campaings assume (ideally, of course...) that people hasn' t decided the vote and has no ideology. Use them to study the options, to read the programs, and decide. I think I' ve voted three different parties in my live, plus some abstentions... Whereas I' ve deffensed that socialism does not work, I will never tell you that left is a bad option, actually, in certain moments or situation it can be the optimal choose. So... do that Helm says... If you don' tget involved you0 ll probably be happier... ^_^

[Helm]

That you say fascists or extreme leftists are nuts is not something I endorse, sorry. I think Marx could have been the biggest asshole ever and that has no bearing on his political writing and ideology and I don't see under what sort of mindset you can say otherwise. He wasn't insane, he could be the most party-loving person ever. I don't really care about his life on that level. Then again, I haven't read any of the core red books in their entirety, so I can't say anything about Marxism either.

[Layabout]

The underlying basis on socialism is by the people, for the people. Democracy works in a similar way, as in our leaders are voted by the people, for the people. But there becomes a problem with this. Those voted by the people, may make decisions far beyond what decision making men should really decide on and make stupid decisions, based on decisions by people who are persuaded to falsify information, for the benifit of the persuaders and their affiliates. Socialism, on the other hand, can not function, as even though some people may not be corruptable, and believe in their government and it's beliefs and socialism, there are others (and many others) who may accept goods or services, in exchange for corruption on the part of the reciever of the goods and services.

Humans, like apes, like to be bigger and better than their competators, like the apes with the red bottom. The ape with the biggest and reddest bottom is always the bigger being. The man with the bigger and better car, house, possesions is always the bigger being.

It's not down to though as to wether socialism can survive in the current political spectrum, it is down to humans, who are individual. The more savvy you are, the greater goals you achieve, and the more successful you become. Many millionaires, came from poor, working class backgrounds, and worked their ass off, achieved their goals, improved their stature, because it was their goal. WHere the hell would people be without goals? Fucking nowhere. BEcause people without goals arent people. They are autobots. Doing their masters bidding. Fuck socialism. Its a fools dream. The reason? Because people need to be challenged. People need to grow. People need to succeed. If they do not have that, what the hell do they have?

I'll tell you what. Slavery. Socialism is and classy name for slavery. full stop x100000

Rebutt that....