Orchestral work

[Gregjazz]

Hi!

Here's something I've been working on over Thanksgiving. The second movement (that last part) is still under construction, but you get the idea. It's entirely Miroslav Philharmonik.

http://www.gregjazz.com/upload/orchestralwork.mp3

I'm thinking maybe the flute section and piccolos are too loud, what do you think? And I know, legato is SO difficult to do with orchestral libraries.

[Nikolas]

Greg,

I like it A LOT!

The sound is very good and the mixing is brilliant as well! Composition wise I think you're perfect as well. (Listening while posting btw, so... I may change a bit later on...).

The picollo is not too loud, maybe 0.5db lower? Nothing else really... But there is something with the flutes and picollo, they play too long without a rest. Esepcially around 0:40 (the staccatos), and then at around 02:00 (the flute melody on top), seems a bit long. Not necessarily unplayable, but certainly difficult.

It also seems that Miroslav is missing some more aggressive articulations. :-/ The staccato strings don't sound really well... And probably lacking some percussion as well? I ask that, as you keep using the snare which could potentially get tiresome after a while (the 1st movement is 4 minutes after all).

Second movement: The flute plays for far too long... This could only be performed by 2 flutes which would change 2-3 times each to cover the other ones breathing... It sounds like the same one here :-/ And the harmony is a little weird... I can't exactly follow you, although you seem to stick around the same "tonality" the whole time... 

Ok it is 2 flutes... It's that it's the same articulations that make them sound like it's one probably... again not your fault...

ORchestration wise, while the first movement is rather colourful and "plenty" and of course really well crafted, the second seems dull (which could very well be your intention), but also tiresome, with the lack of any variation really.

Compairing the 2 movements one could say that the first changes 3-4 times the rythm, adn the rythmic patterns, while the second does not do that at all! Sticks at the same rythm, tempo, and ideas for the whole movement. And orchestrationally you didn't try to "dress" the music really. But then again it's a WIP, so yes...

In all it is a very worthy track! Very well composed, thought of, it kept me for the whole 7 minutes (6:52) and there is nothing obvious wrong (and of course we could always say that there is no wrong or right... especially in music...)

One last thing that seemed a little "mechanic" is the tempo map. Although you do change tempos in the 1st movement, between "areas", you don't change it at all when you are in a stable tempo. For example the first 2 minutes. No human plays EXACTLY at 88 or 96 or 120... I usually take the mouse on the tempo map and start clicking randonmly every now and then (1-2 bars each time), and make the tempo from 88 to 88.5 and then back to 87.9 and then... It gives a very welcomed variation without ruining the sync at all (since you're moving all tracks). On solo instruments some times (becasue... I don't have keybaords and do everything with Finale and Piano roll), I go to piano roll and move beginings and endings off quantitizing. It brings lots of life to the track.



Do me a couple of favours:

Update this post so I can see the work finished and go post to NSS as well. It's full of pros (as you know), but they do tend to help and give ideas out... (Unless you don't want to that is...)

Nikolas

[ManicMatt]

The first movement I loved! But the second movement (If I am understanding Nikolas right) I agree with Nikolas that it's somewhat... not as interesting, I'll say.

It's interesting to hear what Nikolas says, as I use flutes and violins in some of my songs, and I don't know an awful lot about them.

Most of what Nikolas said, I'd have to take his word for, as my ears are not trained to hear such things. So from a casual listener's ears, it's very good! Mixing is good too. Mixing, my ears are a bit trained for!

This piece reminded me of Final Fantasy! Well games and flims are really the only times I hear classical music!

[Da_Elf]

what are you using to do this? there is something called symphonic orchestra which sounded great to me

[thewalrus]

     Ahh, I see what Nikolas and Matt mean. The second part of the compisition seems very repeditive. I really like the piece though...... It sounds very soothing.....

[Gregjazz]

Nothing else really... But there is something with the flutes and picollo, they play too long without a rest. Esepcially around 0:40 (the staccatos), and then at around 02:00 (the flute melody on top), seems a bit long. Not necessarily unplayable, but certainly difficult.

That's definitely true! I hadn't thought about that. I'll have to make it more realistic in playability.

It also seems that Miroslav is missing some more aggressive articulations. :-/ The staccato strings don't sound really well... And probably lacking some percussion as well? I ask that, as you keep using the snare which could potentially get tiresome after a while (the 1st movement is 4 minutes after all).

Yeah, Miroslav overall has a pretty passive, emotional sound, which can be good in some instances, but not in all. The main percussion that I'm lacking is cymbal swells (though I do have normal cymbal hits, no swells!), and also a nice bell tree, the one that it has is one of those fast loud ones, not the nice tinkley ones. If that makes sense.

Second movement: The flute plays for far too long... This could only be performed by 2 flutes which would change 2-3 times each to cover the other ones breathing... It sounds like the same one here :-/ And the harmony is a little weird... I can't exactly follow you, although you seem to stick around the same "tonality" the whole time...

Yeah, some of the ideas need to be reworked in that section. I'm aware it's repetative in that the mood doesn't change. As you may have figured out it's a canon and then in the middle section the canon is played in retrograde, and then the canon is played in both forward and retrograde, and at the end it's played forward again. But it's too repetative, and also there's something strange about the attacks and releases of the strings--they sound too much like a little short swell and then suddenly dissappear--on every chord!

Ok it is 2 flutes... It's that it's the same articulations that make them sound like it's one probably... again not your fault...

Well, I need to go and check over all the woodwind parts and make sure that I give it breathing room.

One last thing that seemed a little "mechanic" is the tempo map. Although you do change tempos in the 1st movement, between "areas", you don't change it at all when you are in a stable tempo. For example the first 2 minutes. No human plays EXACTLY at 88 or 96 or 120... I usually take the mouse on the tempo map and start clicking randonmly every now and then (1-2 bars each time), and make the tempo from 88 to 88.5 and then back to 87.9 and then... It gives a very welcomed variation without ruining the sync at all (since you're moving all tracks). On solo instruments some times (becasue... I don't have keybaords and do everything with Finale and Piano roll), I go to piano roll and move beginings and endings off quantitizing. It brings lots of life to the track.

That last trick with the humanizing sounds good, I'll try that in certain sections.

As for the tempo map--

Believe me, I tried to change the tempo! I usually will bring out the pencil and draw tempo curves in appropriate places, even if they're subtle.

But Miroslav has a weird bug I discovered, where when you change the tempo, it's like the note beginnings change accordingly, like they should, but the note endings don't. So when you speed up the tempo, the notes begin to overlap very noticeably, and when you slow the tempo down, there are big gaps between the notes.

I already reported it to the tech support, and they answered my email saying to give them more detailed information, so I sent them an MP3 of the bug in action along with the Cakewalk project for them to examine. Haven't heard from them since.

So the entire song is one tempo (though granted, I will mix in some triplets to get a 6/8 feel or whatever, so you feel like the tempo is dynamic)

Thanks for your feedback! I really appreciate it!

[InCreator]

Your orchestral piece sounds

* extremely professional...

I'm not an expert, but this sounds like real quality music. Casual people won't tell any difference, IMO. At least, I wouldn't. This I like. Also the richness everywhere, changing melodies and all this stuff.

* ...and awfully boring

Really. It's just beautiful music. No real soul or mood. In world of electronic music, it's equal to Ambient - a music which helps to sleep. I can see butterflies and green plains when I listen, but that's simply boring.
You have the skills and dedication, why won't you create something high-paced, hysterical and heroic like these two songs from Age of Empires 3 (?) soundtrack?

If you could create something more similar (in means of urge to jump up and grab a sword! to cry and
celebrate! etc) to these, you would be my hero and if you made a CD, I would be the first buyer.

--
EDIT: Listening it twice again, the first part goes somewhere there. But the melody is... em.. too shy? Like you were afraid to make bigger note jumps and cross octaves, bring in artillery (heavier sounds) and let drums thunder. Sorry for somewhat poetic crits, I just can't explain it in any other way. Orchestral music like this makes me speak like that: strong influence!

Also, try everything minimalistic first. Simple melody, if it's good enough could make a whole anthem. Find it, and then spice it. Otherwise, all you got is lots of spice and no real food.

[voh]

The first movement made me want to play Skies of Arcadia again, because it sounds a lot like that. Not only in melody, but also in quality.

It's good, though the second movement does need some more work.

Regardless, excuse me while I go and play Skies of Arcadia now.

[Gregjazz]

I really appreciate all your input, guys!!

InCreator, you're giving me some ideas! Thanks for your support and criticism. Some of it is in my arranging fault, but Miroslav Philharmonik's drum sounds are not very thundering. I suppose I'll eventually upgrade to EWQLSO, and that'll be cool because that's supposed to be a pretty punchy library (can you verify this for me Nikolas? )