Kramer is a racist nutbag!

[EagerMind]

In ManiacMatt's defense, I believe his point was that some words are offensive no matter how they're used. To say that it depends on the context you use them in is to ignore the fact that many words, especially offensive ones, carry an inherent context in themselves. Check the definitions for yourselves:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nigger
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=paki
They are, by definition, disparaging and offensive. Just because you're not using them to demean people doesn't mean people won't find their use offensive.

Sure, you can make a relatively mundane phrase (calling someone an idiot, for example) especially offensive if you really mean to disparage the person you're saying it to. But there's no nice way to say the "n" word or the "p" word, just as there's no nice way to say "f- you!" In fact, if you know the connotations behind these words, I don't see how one can continue to use them and honestly claim that they're not trying to be offensive. And just because it's "ok" for some black people to call each other the "n" word doesn't suddenly make it acceptable to use that word. It's still racist because people who aren't black can't call them that; it's discriminating between those who can and those who can't.

It's no different when the meaning of a word changes over time (or in different cultures). 20 years ago or so "gay" and "queer" had very different connotations, but now (at least in the U.S.), I'd be very, very careful about how I use these words in public. Similarly if some word or phrase that has no special meaning in America is seen as offensive in other countries. Common courtesy says that once I become aware of the negative connotations, I stop saying it in mixed company, even if saying it isn't offensive to me.

Can ManiacMatt calm down a bit? Sure. But at the same time, when someone has made it clear that they find a particular word offensive, I don't see where it's ok to continue using it and pushing it on the person that objects to it, regardless of the circumstances. As m0ds said, we should respect how other people feel.

[MrColossal]

I don't see how one can continue to use them and honestly claim that they're not trying to be offensive.

My girlfriend's sister dates a Paki. As in that's his nick name, his full name is Patrick.

Granted, not a widespread case, just sayin'!

I had never heard paki as a slur before, and when I found out what it ment I thought "But it sounds just like someone shortening a word, like calling someone a Scot..."

When someone has made it clear that they find a particular word offensive, I don't see where it's ok to continue using it and pushing it on the person that objects to it, regardless of the circumstances. As m0ds said, we should respect how other people feel.

Yes but he also continued to read the thread that he found offensive. If it were a different thread and people were talking about, say, religion, and a user didn't like people saying bad things about their religion, is it up to the posters to stop all discussion or the reader to stop reading that which they find offensive?

Either way, no one PMed me about this thread and wishing it to be locked and I stopped paying attention after so many posts so that's why I didn't lock it. That's why I didn't intervene Mods.

[ManicMatt]

Vict0r said I really should come and look at the posts here as "They make good points" since I said I wouldn't look at it. (Probably quite a few posts have been made since he said that, mind)

I took his advice and here I am. Yes I got mad and I apologise to Erenan for going crazy like that. (Living up to my username though. Joke.) It wasn't intended at solely him when I got upset, it was all the comments before that with the word used all chucked into the metaphorical boiling pot.

Yes, the p word was coined by racist people (Probably white) in Britain to use in a derogatory and offensive manner in the 1960's, against anyone who had the same skin colour as a pakistani. It was around that time the UK had people from Pakistani and other countries immigrating to this country.

I thought it was obvious why I find it offensive. Throughout my life it has been used offensively against the people I've grown up with. I do not wish to go into details, for it will just upset me even more to relive those moments in my mind. I didn't grow up hearing anyone use the "n" word in my company, so it does not offend on a deep personal level. Still offends me, though. Just doesn't upset me.

After some people saw my outburst on here, on mirc they thought it would be funny to type that word for me to see, knowing it bothers me. I find this act intolerable. A certain member, who I will not name, for example, thought it would be oh so funny to tell Roger to tell me that "p" word around 25 times.

[Meowster]

I bet it was SSH


Anyway don't you find it slightly silly that you're saying "that P word" instead of "paki"? because either way, you're not being racist or racially slurring against other people. You're not doing anything wrong. All you're doing is sounding silly because you can't say a word and you seem to think it will make it less offensive if you tiptoe around it... "The P Word!".

Would it make it less offensive to a black person if I screamed "You are THE N WORD!" instead of "nigger" at them? It would be just as offensive, but it would also make me look like an idiot...

If you're so concerned about the terrible atrocities that these people you know have been through, the way to deal with it isn't to tiptoe around it and pretend it never happened or the word doesn't exist. If you have such an issue with it, then let people know why you don't like it, and don't be afraid to say it...

By pretending like it doesn't exist or something, you're just drawing more attention to it and yourself, and I'm sure that's not what you want.

You can't deal with racism by being afraid of it and pretending it doesn't happen. Flouncing into a thread about racism, screaming, "Oh no I hate the P word because of REASONS I CAN'T SAY, you're all horrid for using it over and over again in this discussion!" and then flouncing out again.... that does nothing useful at all.

[CaptainBinky]

I'd point out that you're likely to offend lots more people by shouting "Fucking hell!" and yet you don't seem to have any qualms with that at all.

That is offensive in an entirely different manner.

I'm curious about something. Racism can be offensive, sexism can be offensive, religious intolerance can be offensive, and swearing can be offensive. Who are we to "rank" the amount of offense caused by these things and say that racism is worse than sexism, or swearing is worse than heightism etc? Surely if we are going to tolerate one form of offense than we have to tolerate them all. Or none. Why tolerate swearing and not racism - there will be people (possibly on these boards, who knows) who will be very offended by sexual swear words and yet they are used liberally on these forums.

I find it all rather bizarre how racism is seen as the granddaddy of all offense. What difference does it make whether you discriminate someone for the colour of their skin, or their height, or their sexual preference? It's still discrimination and therefore equally wrong. And liberal use of religious terms in expression ("Jesus Christ!", "For God's Sake", "f***ing Hell") is offensive to some religious people.

At work, people are frequently called "Gay" if they've been an idiot. This is obviosuly offensive to actual gay people because the word is being used as a slur against them. Except it's not. Because there was no malicious slur to gay people intended - the word became adopted at some point (by someone who probably was being offensive) but now the word is meaningless in that context. There is a big difference to calling someone "gay" and shouting "Gay Freak!" to a gay guy. They're just words at the end of the day. And I repeat earlier sentiments in that surely the only sensible way to behave (so we're not being offended every day and getting all cross) is to react appropriately to the context not the word. I'm a white heterosexual male. If some black guy said "You whitey!" to his white mate, then there's no cause to be offended (cause he's a mate and obviously didn't mean it offensively) whereas if he screamed "you filthy white bastard!" to me while punching me in the face, then obviously it was being offensive.

It's like the terms "black-board", "postman", "snowman" etc. Where's the sense in renaming them "chalk-board", "post-person", and "snow-person". If we're going to be held to ransom by words, then we're never going to progress.

Binky

[Helm]

Yes binky. To tie it all together, a stand-up comedian who says 'fuck all you people, you should all die, I hate you ALL' is a-ok whereas one who says 'fuck black people only, I hope they die, I hate them ALL' is a racist and uproar ensues.

I guess hating everybody equally is seen as a cartoony proposition, a shock-value statement without any backing, as there hasn't been oh, historical cases where misanthropes have come together to burn people indescriminately in ovens, or enslave them or whatever.

[dasjoe]

After some people saw my outburst on here, on mirc they thought it would be funny to type that word for me to see, knowing it bothers me. I find this act intolerable. A certain member, who I will not name, for example, thought it would be oh so funny to tell Roger to tell me that "p" word around 25 times.

That was me, i'm sorry about it. I could be all "had a tough day, bla bla" about it, but i now (thank you, Helm) see that i've been wrong.

I didn't realise you were truly offended and thought you would be joking around. Anyway, that a single word is such an offense is incomprehensible to me - especially since i've heard it thousands of times in my life - but as Helm said i don't need to poke you just because i don't understand.

I seriously would like to know what caused this word to be so offensive towards you, but as you said you won't go into further details and i surely won't push you.

Sorry Matt, i didn't want (and don't ever want) to seriously offend you or anybody.

[evenwolf]

Yes binky. To tie it all together, a stand-up comedian who says 'fuck all you people, you should all die --

OH SURE, if an alien yells "I hate all humans! Ã,  Fuck you humies!" Ã,  Ã, Nobody has a problem with it!
But the second a human yells "E.T.s go home!" Ã, EVERYBODY chimes in, "Oooh, specism!"

[Raggit]

Very interesting point, wolfy.

[Babar]

Woah

Sorry if I offended you, Matt (and this sounds odd for someone of Pakistani origin). I did not realise how seriously you took it. It seems to me that your reason for abhorrence is more personal than racist. If it makes any difference, I wasn't specifically trying to egg you on when I did the whole.....P, P, P.....thing? It just seemed like the simplest way of describing the people in the photographs. That it looked so neat and confrontational(?) with it's rows and all after I posted just seemed like an added bonus at the time.

See, that's the thing. I suppose m0ds has a point in  that I really never experienced it in a racist context, so I should be careful. I've always taken it to mean a person of Pakistani origin. However, if someone called me one, I'd probably just go: "Huh? Yeah?". To me at least, it's an insult that the word is considered racist.

I agree that it's the feeling and context, not the word that's racist. People can discriminate using the most mundane language. You've got to wonder where the line between racism and normal conversation is. Random people used to greet me with "Amitabh Bachan! Amitabh Bachan!". They was not being evil, condescending, derogatory, and seemed to mean it in the nicest of terms. While I found this annoying, and slightly odd, I didn't take it in a racist context.

Many people have an ingrained sense of "them", and I can't really, seriously hold it against them, because I don't really believe they can be changed. As long as they keep the themness away from things like employment, angry beatings, etc., I just take it in stride. Perhaps I'm just complacent, but y'know...sticks and stones and all that.

[lo_res_man]

From what I have heard, to some people paki is an offencive word, and we should respect that. To me, fuck isn't that bad a word, but to my mother it is, as well as to a housemate of mine. so I don't say it around them , or if I am in a public place. We must remember this forum is like a group of people talking in a circle in a large park, not a bunch of guys and gals shooting the bull in some basement. don't be drunk and disorderly.

[Layabout]

Ahh, predjudice. Only now, after reading through the thread, I feel I want to reply.

This kind of reminds me of the case where the classroom assistant (I believe), who was a muslim, was suspended due to her insistance on wearing the full veil, with only her eyes visible. And I fully believe that she shouldn't wear it in a school environment. Students should be able to see their teacher. I believe they shouldn't be allowed on the streets, but the only reason for this, is if in a situation where i decided one day that it was really cold and decided to wear a balaclava on the high street, I would be arrested in about 3 minutes and 25 seconds. ooh, but they say their teachings instruct them to wear it. It is only a suggestion and no where does it say it must be worn!

DOUBLE STANDARDS!

I freely admit that I prefer brunette ladies over blonde or gingers. I am a hairist. I am less likely to consider dating a blonde or a red-head, due to my attraction towards brunettes. Am I evil for this predjudice? I don't think so. I have dated blondes, never a red-head, but I find them less attractive.

On the tube after the july 7 atttacks, I bet that the majority of people would have eyed any person of middle-eastern/asian decent with suspicion. This is racist, but it is natural for these people to be a bit wary after the events that happened. The same on airplanes after 9/11.

This is a free country, or so they say. Racism is a problem. Racism will always be a problem. People, especially small-minded people bought up in an isolated environment, will always be somewhat racist. It's not just against those with a differerent skin colour. In england, The french are called frogs. In france, the english are called roast beef. Do either of these countries have a problem with that term? I don't believe so. People (and the daily mail) are up in arms about the polish taking over and stealing jobs. It is racist.

I might have a point there somewhere.

I could go buy a full body veil, wear a bra to produce fake breasts, and go rob a convienience store. I would not be caught, because it is now 'acceptable' to wear this as a woman. But if I tried it with a balaclava, i would be arrested before I got to the store. Silly to allow people to wear such a thing and to allow it to be acceptable.

Personally, I don't fear anyone who wears that, but it seems to be a bit of a double standard, and opens a door to new avenues of committing a crime. Which I don't like.

I end there. With a short note saying that I wouldn't personally use the abv. for pakistani. It sounds wrong.

[Andail]

Very interesting point, wolfy.

"wolfy"? Specism!!!

[DGMacphee]

"wolfy"? Specism!!!

Just look at how you use more exclaimation marks than you do question marks, ya fucken punctuationist!

[big brother]

This article is kind of relevant:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20061129-121812-1240r.htm

When it comes to my personal well-being, I could care less about being labeled racist. Hell, I'd ask for two or three seat belt extensions.

[Tom S. Fox]

Has anybody seen this:
http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=20784

I hope, nobody else posted it already.

[Erwin_Br]

Seinfeld: The Lost Episode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuJIHf1Mdyo

--Erwin

[veryweirdguy]

Haha, Erwin, I'd advise checking the link in the post DIRECTLY before yours.

[Erwin_Br]

Heh, funny. I checked the thread for YouTube videos, not expecting it's hosted by other media sites as well.

--Erwin

[Tom S. Fox]

Hehe, well, however, I predict Family Guy episode in one of the future season wich is going to look like this:


Seriously, they're probably going to do this.