Saddam Hussein

[DGMacphee]

Unfortunately we're just as capable of choosing bad leadership as any other country, so I don't see how this makes us any worse when compared to the rest of the world.

There are reasons why Bush was elected to power, but those are quite aside from the fact that he's subsequently abused that power to further his own agenda. Darth already explained why people ended up supporting the invasion of Iraq, and if you're going to conclude from that that we're war-mongering imperialists, then I'm going to have to disagree with you.

I'm not saying that most Americans are war-mongering imperialists. But I am saying that most of the officials you elected into office over the last six years are. Therefore, why should you be absolved when such elected officials are supposed to represent your interests? Isn't that the fundamental theory underpinning democracy?

And I'm not just talking Bush, I'm including both Congress and the Senate. Luckily, I feel a glimmer of hope over the next year with the new Congress and Senate, plus a United States that wants a new direction in Iraq.

I wouldn't begrudge any country a moment of national solidarity after an incident of unfathomable tragedy.

I'm all for national solidarity if it make you happy. What I disagree with is the US bullying other nations into fighting as cause that has nothing to do with them. Like Bush said, you're either for the US or against the US. What a shit decision!

I'm not trying to validate anything here. Where have I said that the things we've done are OK? Where have I shirked responsibility for what our country has done?

For example, the part where you said "Bush may be a terrible president who has abused his powers in office, but don't extrapolate this one case to all of American history or to all its people."

It's been a major part of American history and it was a decision approved and allowed by the majority of Americans. So, I think it's fair to extrapolate that to the extents you deny.

I'm trying to point out that there are real reasons underlying the things that have happened, reasons which won't be found by blindly buying into all the spin.

BWAHAHAH! I'm so surprised you say this now, especially when the real reasons underlying things happening were explained back in 2001 and 2002. But the majority of Americans supported Bush's spin (according to polls, over 90% post 9/11) such as "The terrorists hate our freedom" and "Iraq has WMDs".

Don't tell me I'm naive. I've been probably the most vocal opponent of the War in Iraq on this forum. Plus, you want to talk facts? I'm probably the one you links more references than anyone else. I study up on what's happening in American politics more so than most Americans do. And from a range of right and left wing sources.

So don't treat me like I'm a three year old, pal.

Okay consider the fact that Bush has done all these things: big tax cuts, low unemployment rate (4.4 per cent), high security, and a poverty rate that although has increased during his term is still lower than times when Bush Snr and Reagan were in power. How do you explain the majority of people against Bush's policies?

Big tax cuts: Yes, but when you start considering the national debt and burgeoning expenses from social security and Medicare, none of which he has fixed, then we're looking at a much higher tax burden in the near future.

Low unemployment rate: True, although many perceive that jobs are being lost to outsourcing. It's also true that while corporations are raking in record profits and the richest 1% or so of the nation are getting richer from said outsourcing, middle-class wages have remained stagnant. People may be working, but they're not happy.

High security: Possibly, although it appears that our personal liberties are being jeopardized in the process. And a study showing that the Iraq war has actually made us less safe suggests that Bush's "war on terror" isn't working after all. (If that link doesn't work, try this one.)

Poverty rate: As you mentioned, going up. Nobody cares what it was 5, 10, or 100 years ago. During Bush's term it's gone up.

I mean, c'mon, people care about those things and they're all related to Iraq/War on Terror.

Yes, people care about the war because it impacts their life. They care because of the reasons I've mentioned and also because people they know are dying or coming home maimed. Not for some vague notion of empire or "spreading democracy" to foreign lands.

You know, it's funny that you say America isn't trying to "spread democracy" to foreign lands because I looked up the White House website and low and behold there's a fact sheet from December 2005 all about bringing democracy to Iraq:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051212-1.html

Just in case you missed that link...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051212-1.html

My favourite part is this:

"The United States Is Helping Iraqis Build Inclusive Democratic Institutions That Will Protect The Interests Of All The Iraqi People. By helping Iraqis build a democracy, America will win over those who doubted they had a place in the new Iraq, and we will undermine the terrorists and Saddamists, gain an ally in the War on Terror, inspire reformers across the Middle East, and make the American people more secure. Democracy takes different forms in different cultures, but successful free societies are built on common foundations of rule of law, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, a free economy, and freedom of worship."

Oh yeah, and this part:

Democracy In Iraq Will Inspire A Region And Help Defeat An Enemy. When the new government takes office next year, Iraqis will have the only constitutional democracy in the Arab world, and Americans will have a partner for peace and moderation in the Middle East. People across the broader Middle East are drawing inspiration from Iraq's progress, and the terrorists' most powerful myth is being destroyed.

Hahahaha, isn't that funny? Because that was over A YEAR AGO in Dec 05.
And America still hasn't made a partner for peace in Iraq. Instead, they've plunged the country in a civil war! Like, their interest in going to war in Iraq was self-serving but now it's bit them on the arse? Isn't that freaking hilarious? And it's pretty much what I predicted would happen back in 2003.

oh I love being right all the time, time to do my victory dance UNNHHG PELVIC THRUST UNNHHG UNNHGG

I guess what I'm saying is if you seriously think the US wasn't been attempting imperialism in the Middle East or "spreading democracy" over the last few years, you might want to check your government's website first.

See, I remember this stuff because I saw with my own two fucking eyes Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld talking about spreading democracy back when the Iraq War was popular.

And you call me naive?? HAHAHAHAHAH!

[shitar]

Unfortunately we're just as capable of choosing bad leadership as any other country, so I don't see how this makes us any worse when compared to the rest of the world.

There are reasons why Bush was elected to power, but those are quite aside from the fact that he's subsequently abused that power to further his own agenda. Darth already explained why people ended up supporting the invasion of Iraq, and if you're going to conclude from that that we're war-mongering imperialists, then I'm going to have to disagree with you.

I'm not saying that most Americans are war-mongering imperialists. But I am saying that most of the officials you elected into office over the last six years are. Therefore, why should you be absolved when such elected officials are supposed to represent your interests? Isn't that the fundamental theory underpinning democracy?

And I'm not just talking Bush, I'm including both Congress and the Senate. Luckily, I feel a glimmer of hope over the next year with the new Congress and Senate, plus a United States that wants a new direction in Iraq.

I wouldn't begrudge any country a moment of national solidarity after an incident of unfathomable tragedy.

I'm all for national solidarity if it make you happy. What I disagree with is the US bullying other nations into fighting as cause that has nothing to do with them. Like Bush said, you're either for the US or against the US. What a shit decision!

I'm not trying to validate anything here. Where have I said that the things we've done are OK? Where have I shirked responsibility for what our country has done?

For example, the part where you said "Bush may be a terrible president who has abused his powers in office, but don't extrapolate this one case to all of American history or to all its people."

It's been a major part of American history and it was a decision approved and allowed by the majority of Americans. So, I think it's fair to extrapolate that to the extents you deny.

I'm trying to point out that there are real reasons underlying the things that have happened, reasons which won't be found by blindly buying into all the spin.

BWAHAHAH! I'm so surprised you say this now, especially when the real reasons underlying things happening were explained back in 2001 and 2002. But the majority of Americans supported Bush's spin (according to polls, over 90% post 9/11) such as "The terrorists hate our freedom" and "Iraq has WMDs".

Don't tell me I'm naive. I've been probably the most vocal opponent of the War in Iraq on this forum. Plus, you want to talk facts? I'm probably the one you links more references than anyone else. I study up on what's happening in American politics more so than most Americans do. And from a range of right and left wing sources.

So don't treat me like I'm a three year old, pal.

Okay consider the fact that Bush has done all these things: big tax cuts, low unemployment rate (4.4 per cent), high security, and a poverty rate that although has increased during his term is still lower than times when Bush Snr and Reagan were in power. How do you explain the majority of people against Bush's policies?

Big tax cuts: Yes, but when you start considering the national debt and burgeoning expenses from social security and Medicare, none of which he has fixed, then we're looking at a much higher tax burden in the near future.

Low unemployment rate: True, although many perceive that jobs are being lost to outsourcing. It's also true that while corporations are raking in record profits and the richest 1% or so of the nation are getting richer from said outsourcing, middle-class wages have remained stagnant. People may be working, but they're not happy.

High security: Possibly, although it appears that our personal liberties are being jeopardized in the process. And a study showing that the Iraq war has actually made us less safe suggests that Bush's "war on terror" isn't working after all. (If that link doesn't work, try this one.)

Poverty rate: As you mentioned, going up. Nobody cares what it was 5, 10, or 100 years ago. During Bush's term it's gone up.

I mean, c'mon, people care about those things and they're all related to Iraq/War on Terror.

Yes, people care about the war because it impacts their life. They care because of the reasons I've mentioned and also because people they know are dying or coming home maimed. Not for some vague notion of empire or "spreading democracy" to foreign lands.

You know, it's funny that you say America isn't trying to "spread democracy" to foreign lands because I looked up the White House website and low and behold there's a fact sheet from December 2005 all about bringing democracy to Iraq:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051212-1.html

Just in case you missed that link...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051212-1.html

My favourite part is this:

"The United States Is Helping Iraqis Build Inclusive Democratic Institutions That Will Protect The Interests Of All The Iraqi People. By helping Iraqis build a democracy, America will win over those who doubted they had a place in the new Iraq, and we will undermine the terrorists and Saddamists, gain an ally in the War on Terror, inspire reformers across the Middle East, and make the American people more secure. Democracy takes different forms in different cultures, but successful free societies are built on common foundations of rule of law, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, a free economy, and freedom of worship."

Oh yeah, and this part:

Democracy In Iraq Will Inspire A Region And Help Defeat An Enemy. When the new government takes office next year, Iraqis will have the only constitutional democracy in the Arab world, and Americans will have a partner for peace and moderation in the Middle East. People across the broader Middle East are drawing inspiration from Iraq's progress, and the terrorists' most powerful myth is being destroyed.

Hahahaha, isn't that funny? Because that was over A YEAR AGO in Dec 05.
And America still hasn't made a partner for peace in Iraq. Instead, they've plunged the country in a civil war! Like, their interest in going to war in Iraq was self-serving but now it's bit them on the arse? Isn't that freaking hilarious? And it's pretty much what I predicted would happen back in 2003.

oh I love being right all the time, time to do my victory dance UNNHHG PELVIC THRUST UNNHHG UNNHGG

I guess what I'm saying is if you seriously think the US wasn't been attempting imperialism in the Middle East or "spreading democracy" over the last few years, you might want to check your government's website first.

See, I remember this stuff because I saw with my own two fucking eyes Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld talking about spreading democracy back when the Iraq War was popular.

And you call me naive?? HAHAHAHAHAH!

/hi5

[EagerMind]

So don't treat me like I'm a three year old, pal.

I wasn't actually. But that thoughtful and measured response was certainly something I might expect from one. Appreciate you just proving my point even further. Thanks!

[Darth Mandarb]

Like Bush said, you're either for the US or against the US. What a shit decision!

Only a Sith deals in Absolutions ...

You know something?  For the last few years I was slowly losing respect for my President.  After the faulty "WMD" intelligence was revealed I got VERY pissed off.  Not because he lied (all politicians do) but because he wouldn't own up to the fact that it was his fault.  He kept finger pointing.

You took our country to war based off of lies.  It doesn't matter who told you what ... it was your fault Mr. President.  It happened on your watch.  You're the boss.  You're responsible.  That's when I lost what last little clinging respect I may have had the man.

[Then, after Katrina, he did nothing about it for 5 freaking days (unless you count dipping below the clouds on his way back to DC on Airforce 1)  I become an opponent of him.]

Why am I saying all this?

I'm not saying that most Americans are war-mongering imperialists. But I am saying that most of the officials you elected into office over the last six years are. Therefore, why should you be absolved when such elected officials are supposed to represent your interests? Isn't that the fundamental theory underpinning democracy?

You're absolutely right.  If 1/2 the people of this nation elected the man into office, the other 1/2 of us can't point fingers and say "they did it!!  we didn't want him in there!!"  It happened on our watch.  We're responsible.  That's just the way it works in a democracy.

I would say the only point I'm trying to get across is that we're not all blindly following the man.

It's actually very frustrating because it seems no matter what we do the man sits on his throne and ignores us.  It gets so frustrating that at times I think a little armed revolution might just be a good thing!

Feeling so strongly for America, taking all these steps we "anti-Bush" people can, and hating with a blinding passion the image that George Bush is giving the world of us ... I think it's not hard to understand why I don't like being "lumped" in with the man.

I will be the first to admit that I have changed a lot since first getting to AGS ... So some of these statements might come as a suprise.  I fell into the same "trap" that so many people (not just Americans) have fallen into in history.  An event (or series of events) allows somebody to take power that shouldn't ... and slowly but surely the truth comes out and we realize the mistake we've made even though we, at first, supported them.

I just hope it's not too late to recover from this.

[LimpingFish]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6236743.stm

"Iraqi PM Nouri has said his government could review relations with any country which criticised the execution of ex-leader Saddam Hussein."

Why does this remind me of the Bush administrations reaction to France's criticism of the Iraqi offensive? :

[DGMacphee]

So don't treat me like I'm a three year old, pal.

I wasn't actually. But that thoughtful and measured response was certainly something I might expect from one. Appreciate you just proving my point even further. Thanks!

hey how about you use sarcasm to substitute for a post with substance

oh wait you just did!

If you can't at least match up what I've said, especially the part where I showed how full of shit you are about the "spreading democracy" part, then fuck off!

I would say the only point I'm trying to get across is that we're not all blindly following the man.

Yep, I can totally concede to that. And I'm glad to hear it.

[Nacho]

I think it' s quite clear that if the debate comes to "Is Bush an idiot or not?" we will all move to "yes", so, end of "exciting" discussion for me. 

[Akatosh]

I think it' s quite clear that if the debate comes to "Is Bush an idiot or not?" we will all move to "yes", so, end of "exciting" discussion for me. 

And as that's the case, I think I can add these links without being killed immediatly:
http://www.maxmin.ws/bush/bush_content.html
http://www.stupidedia.org/stupi/Bild:Affentheater.JPG

NOTE: Some mean humor there - see below.

[Nacho]

I think it' s quite clear that if the debate comes to "Is Bush an idiot or not?" we will all move to "yes", so, end of "exciting" discussion for me.Ã, 

And as that's the case, I think I can add these links without being killed immediatly:
http://www.maxmin.ws/bush/bush_content.html
http://www.stupidedia.org/stupi/Bild:Affentheater.JPG

Well, one think is not liking him, and the other is making humour of the retarder people!  I don' t agree!

[i k a r i]

Nacho please, allow me to have that phrase in my signature.. xD..there.

Great sites, especially the first one, 

[Nacho]

Nacho please, allow me to have that phrase in my signature.. xD..there.

Great sites, especially the first one,Ã, 

Please, mention who I am talking about, otherwise someone could think I am talking of CJ or something...

[ManicMatt]

But leave the mistakes in there...

[Nacho]

Oooooh! I see, there is an "r" in spite of a "d"! 

[EagerMind]

DGMacphee, to be honest I'm not quite sure what I've done that warrants insults and being told to fuck off. If I came across as hypocritical, condescending, and sounding like my ass is higher off the ground than everyone else, that was definitely not my intention. I have no desire to start a flame war with you or anyone else in these forums.

The point I was trying to make and my feelings on this issue are pretty much the same as Darth expressed in his last post, but in words much better than mine (and probably with a cooler head). It's hard being an American and watching the path our country has gone down these past few years while world opinion turns against us. If I had it my way, Bush wouldn't be our president right now. But as you said, as our elected leader he is the voice of our nation - and the fact that he speaks for "us" is yet another reason why many of us are so angry at him. There's really nothing for it other than to accept our mistakes, push for change, and try to make amends. That a terrible tragedy like 9/11 has been twisted into a means to further his own agenda and divide our country makes it all the more difficult. Americans are proud, and it's a hard reality to accept, but hopefully as a nation we'll rise to the task.

I really don't feel like getting into anymore of a fight about this than we already have, especially since I suspect we're basically in agreement here. What's say we let this go and move onto more "interesting" things?  * extends handshake

I'll leave you all with this, a commentary that was broadcast on the eve of our mid-term elections (if you don't feel like reading, click "Launch" on the right side of the page to start the broadcast version). You may or may not find it interesting, but I see it as hope that all is not lost.

[DGMacphee]

DGMacphee, to be honest I'm not quite sure what I've done that warrants insults and being told to fuck off. If I came across as hypocritical, condescending, and sounding like my ass is higher off the ground than everyone else, that was definitely not my intention. I have no desire to start a flame war with you or anyone else in these forums.

Okay, I'll explain: I don't like being told I'm naive about such things especially since I've been carefully watching the whole situation for the last five years. And I especially did like been told I was the one being naive about the whole situation especially when I'm being told "there's no spreading democracy or imperialism here no siree" when your own government has a fact sheet about spreading democracy in Iraq.

The point I was trying to make and my feelings on this issue are pretty much the same as Darth expressed in his last post, but in words much better than mine (and probably with a cooler head). It's hard being an American and watching the path our country has gone down these past few years while world opinion turns against us. If I had it my way, Bush wouldn't be our president right now. But as you said, as our elected leader he is the voice of our nation - and the fact that he speaks for "us" is yet another reason why many of us are so angry at him. There's really nothing for it other than to accept our mistakes, push for change, and try to make amends. That a terrible tragedy like 9/11 has been twisted into a means to further his own agenda and divide our country makes it all the more difficult. Americans are proud, and it's a hard reality to accept, but hopefully as a nation we'll rise to the task.

Good.

I really don't feel like getting into anymore of a fight about this than we already have, especially since I suspect we're basically in agreement here. What's say we let this go and move onto more "interesting" things?  * extends handshake

Okay.

/shakes hands

I'll leave you all with this, a commentary that was broadcast on the eve of our mid-term elections (if you don't feel like reading, click "Launch" on the right side of the page to start the broadcast version). You may or may not find it interesting, but I see it as hope that all is not lost.

Yep, Olbermann is great. I think he's the best news commentator alive today. And the way he shitcans Bill O'Reilly is just magical, it's gotten to the point where Bill is too scared to even say Olbermann's name on TV or radio.

[Blackthorne]

I find DG very literate and informed - for a kangaroo fucking Aussie.

Bt

[i k a r i]

But leave the mistakes in there...

That's what makes it funny. 

[DGMacphee]

I find DG very literate and informed - for a kangaroo fucking Aussie.

watch who ya calling kangaroo fucking ya damn yankee or ill get kyle farnsworth to ram you to the ground

[EagerMind]

I don't like being told I'm naive about such things especially since I've been carefully watching the whole situation for the last five years.

Yes, you seem very well informed from other posts I have read. I just couldn't understand what you were getting up in my face about.

I'm being told "there's no spreading democracy or imperialism here no siree" when your own government has a fact sheet about spreading democracy in Iraq.

Yes, the White House propaganda machine is in full gear trying to sell everyone on the war and show the "terrorists" how big and scary we are. This is what everyone sees from the outside.

Looking at it from the inside, I think for the average Joe standing around the water cooler the question is "is this making me safer?" When Bush said "the terrorists that attacked us are in Iraq," we said "cool, go get 'em." But now with the White House's lies revealed, evidence that the war is making us less safe, and daily images of Americans dying with no end in sight, people just want to bring the troops home as soon as possible, regardless of the consequences in Iraq.

I don't deny that our government had imperialist intentions for going into Iraq. But I think (I hope!) you're finally seeing the American people rejecting it as the truth has become more and more clear.

I don't know, it's my take on it, I guess I could be full of shit. Really I was just trying to further the point Darth made that we're not all crazy ideologues like our president, but I guess I wasn't very clear, so ... damn.

Okay.

/shakes hands

See, love does exist in the AGS forums!

[DGMacphee]

I don't deny that our government had imperialist intentions for going into Iraq. But I think (I hope!) you're finally seeing the American people rejecting it as the truth has become more and more clear.

Agreed.

See, love does exist in the AGS forums!

Double agreed.