The RoN Problem--How do we solve it???

[SSH]

As long as it's NOT cute animals, count me in.

what a stupid idea! My vote goes there.

Stop mis-quoting me. You're exciting people.

Quite!

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Wasn't Krysis working on all new sprites for RoN?

Anyway, I think what you really need is someone to go through and make a chronology of the canonical games with a page devoted to explaining each story and how it tied into the next one.  When someone comes in and wants to add to the story they will have a solid basis from which to build and a clear idea where they need to start.

That said, I've never been a RoN fan to be honest, but that doesn't mean other people shouldn't like it or keep making games!

[Pumaman]

- Make RoN a part of AGS site.  I'm not sure about this one, since RoN isn't necessarily an AGS thing.  There should be a greater effort to call attention to it, though, via this site.  I'm not sure how. 

Difficult one. Is this something that people would want? In theory we could absorb the RON forums relatively easily; but then, isn't part of the charm of RON that it's not part of AGS and in theory people can make games with any engine?

- Quality control?  There are a number of games on the site that, let's face it, aren't terribly good.  This could turn people away from the series.   I wouldn't want to delete these games (that's a dictatorship), but perhaps there's a way to let the better games shine through while the crap hides in the shadows.  I'm not sure how to do this, as there was a rating system at one point, but it was abused.

This problem also affects the main AGS Games site; there are some very low quality games that perhaps shouldn't feature, but as you say we can't really be dictators and remove somebody's game for "not being good enough".

I'm really not sure what the best solution for this is either.

[Steel Drummer]

Wasn't Krysis working on all new sprites for RoN?

Not just that; he was working on a whole new RoN game. But you know him... he never finishes games he starts. A shame, since his art style is awesome.

[Renegade Implementor]

I'd like to touch on a couple of comments that have been made.

The welcome message on the RoN page gives an explanation of what the purpose of RoN is.  To quote: "It involves the creation of a central environment - in our case, the Reality-on-the-Norm town. Each member of the team creates his or her own game as a chapter to be added to all the previously achieved ones, thus creating a collective and diverse "book" of several independent yet coherent chapters."

The timeline was something I created as a resource which would list games in a chronological order and note important plot points.  However, there are some games that clearly contradicted each other, which is why I had to figure out what worked best.  Which is why some games were not included in it, and the timeline is described as "best fit".

In regards to making new games fit established events, most games fall between 2001-2003 (game-time).  There's nothing to prevent games taking place sometime in the near future or in the past.  Or have characters travel to different cities.  Perhaps opening the concept up and adding to the world might be a direction someone might be interested in.

Continuation:

I don't know if having the entire RoN forum moved to AGS board would be beneficial.  As mentioned above, any engine could be used to make a RoN game, such as Krysis's downhill  skiing game using Gamemaker.  If people saw the need, perhaps a subforum could be created to handle annoucements of non-AGS RoN games and general discussions.

As for what can be done right now, any games or demos made with AGS could be annouced here as well as on the main RoN site.  I'm not sure where an appropriate place to annouce non-AGS RoN games would be, though. 

One of the things I find frustrating is the lack of response whenever I try to generate interest or draw attention to RoN.  There was a discussion on the RoN forum about things that could be done this year, and a new contest/activity section was added to the forum.  Participation has been rather dismal to say the least, but you have to keep trying.  I think RoN still has a lot to offer in terms of stories and potential, and I'm not ready to give up on it.

[Huw Dawson]

I think that the series needs refreshing. I think that having some sort of amalgamation would not be a bad idea.

A big problem with Reality-On-The-Norm was the fact that several people acted very childishly in the creation of some of the games, some of the games were terrible as a result, and a certain person wrecked half of it by abusing the entire idea of a timeline to kill off the biggest character in a very stupid way. Hence why I feel that the entire RON idea needs a timeline fastforward of about 4 years. (to the present day) And, sadly, some sort of regulation system to stop very poor games becomeing a chapter in the history of RON.

Personally I'd like the idea of saying: Right, that's it. Done. Let's start again. But many people would disagree with me on that point.

Heck, if this became a proper AGS thing, I'd definatly make a game for it. Combine some of the old RON stuff with new RON stuff and see how it goes.

- Huw

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Well, Huw, if you want, you can make a game that's set in a timeline fastfoward of about 4 years (to the present day).

Also, re quality control for avoiding poor chapters... why not have a filter here in the AGS Completed Games to avoid those inane first-games as well? It's the next step.

Except that some games are not that bad, and some games are good for some people and bad for others, and all of them have the right to figure in the history of the AGS games database.

Honestly, I find this thread a bit silly.

"The RoN Problem--How do we solve it???"
Answer: make RON games.

People, it's as simple as that. And if the background of RON sounds intimidating, then you don't know RON at all. There's been such a mishmash already - everything's allowed, the only solid rule is not to kill of a character that's been established before your game. You know I was actually working on a game that's set in RON and which involved a journey similar to Orpheus', down to hell in order to save a character most dear to the player? It wasn't a typical RON game, but hey, I was allowed to do it so I did it!

Well, planned it. <sigh>

Which is to say, there aren't many limitations. What RON needs is simple: new games. You want to solve the RON problem? Make RON games!

EDIT - Also, Radiant mentioned the possibility of a Sci-Fi RON. Well, there IS a Sci-Fi background pack in the RON Resources page. ANd why wouldn't it be legit to make a Sci-Fi RON game? Could be a parody, a spin-off, a "what-if" scenario, a flashforward, could be so many things...

[Layabout]

There was a Ron2.0 idea that was being thrown around a few years ago. I can't remember who it was, but I was involved with the creativity process, but it never really got off the ground. Sylpher might have been involved. CLeks also might have been involved... but i cant remember. It was set in space, on some kind of space ship, which had a town. I think...

[Captain Lexington]

Rui--The problem cannot be solved by me and Dave alone! The main problem was 'People aren't paying attention to RoN anymore' and Dave and I already were, so I can't just make a RoN and say the Problem is gone. This thread is so people can discuss what can be done to re-popularize RoN. I'm sure we can stay and make games, but will anyone keep the tradition alive after we leave? If not, perhaps it is time to do something like start a new tradition. That's all I'm saying.

[Dave Gilbert]

Also, re quality control for avoiding poor chapters... why not have a filter here in the AGS Completed Games to avoid those inane first-games as well? It's the next step.

There's a difference between the AGS games database and the RoN database.  If you want to find out about RoN, you look at other RoN games.  If you want to find out about AGS, you don't necessarily have to look at other AGS games.

The oldbies here on this forum all know about RoN.  They either made a game (or more) then moved on, or they never wanted to make a game in the first place.  None of these people plan on making a game, so saying "just make a RON game" isn't the answer.  I know we all hate newbies, but RoN is a community that needs a steady influx of them to keep it going.  The "problem", if there is one, is how to get the word out.  Not how to get the current community members more active.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Right, but what better way to keep the community active than by making RON games and posting them here in the AGS database? It raises the awareness. I know it's not just about the current "RONers", as it were, but the best way to get people into RON is to show them a new RON game. I remember that's how I found out about RON - I saw a game, I saw a few more, curiosity took me to the site.

Never was a community person, so didn't go there, but that's just me.

ALso, "if you want to find out about RON you look at other RON games"... I suppose, but only on a very limited way. If you look at MI5Ron, you don't really get a good picture of RON. If you play the Punk Allen Trilogy, you might feel it's all text adventures. If you play Monty on the Norm, or COmmander Keen on the Norm, you might even feel you *have* to bring characters from other games. Similarly, if you browse the AGS games database, you'll find out all the things AGS can do. Heck, by downloading a newbie game you'll even see the default interface, like it or not. Hey, if you play the second instalment of The Tapestry trilogy you might even feel RON is a very serious subject.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I was having a bit of fun last night/today, but I eventually got bored.





there are just too many characters.  Perhaps this will inspire someone, though.

[blueskirt]

It would be great to have a reorganizing of the games page to make it less intimidating, and it would probably make a few more people play the series, who would have otherwise been scared at the fact there are 75 games in the database already and at first look it seems like that town has more history than Rome. However, I think it would only be a short term solution and would merely delay the inevitable, which also happen to be one fundamental law of internet communities: Without anything new released, most internet communities are doomed to a slow death. And worst of all, there is a certain point during the dying process where there are no turning back possible: to get something released you need new and talented fans, and to attract more talented fans you need something new to be released.

There is also a few questions that are worth pondering about:
Is it possible that pretty much all stories have been told already?
Is it possible that RON was only the thing of one generation?
Is it possible that the series' quality is no longer in par with the quality of today's indies games?

Regarding the quality of RON versus today's standards:
Should the RON ressources get a graphical update?
Would better graphics really be a good thing, as people with no artistic skills would hardly be able to add their own backgrounds or animations without having inconsistent graphics? Is it possible to have graphics that are of today's standards, yet simple to replicate for people with no drawing skills?

One can also push the reflexion further. Let's, for a second, stop considering RON like a series and think of it more like a phenomenon, could it be possible that the RON genre lives, even if there is no new games taking place in Reality-on-the-Norm town? By this I mean that maybe we should change the way RON kind of games are made. Rather than having a big, monolithic series where pretty much everything can happen, maybe there should have multiple and smaller RON-like series created by multiple artists, touching different themes, universe and atmosphere to attract more people to the RON phenomenon.

There are adventure games taking place in fantasy, scifi or realistic setting, there are adventure games that are humorous, some are emotive, other are serious and dark, why not having the same with RON-like series? You could have a dark and serious cyberpunk RON-like series or a light hearted RON-like series with a fantasy setting... several place, time, atmosphere or mood where people could tell their stories. Several smaller series would more likely reach out more people, and these would also be easier to follow and get into as there could have 4 or 5 series with 15 games each, instead of one big series with 75 games.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Re all stories having been told... a student of Schubert's (I think it was Schubert) once complained to him, while they were both strolling along the seaside (or at least in view of the sea), about how all the melodies had already been done, all the music had already been composed. At which point, Schubert turned towards the sea and said "Look, there goes the last wave".

If it ain't true it oughta be, so don't go spoling it by saying Schubert never once saw the sea in his life or something.

[FrancoFranchi]

I'll weigh in as a newbie (but please don't kill me for saying it!)

I've played several RoN games and enjoyed them a lot.  But ulimately, the question of why not make a RoN game falls into the same category of "why not make a King's Quest/Space Quest/Police Quest/etc game instead of your own fantasy/scifi/police/etc adventure?"  Personally, a lot of the fun of planning and (slowly...) working on a game is creating the world and the characters.  For example, why make a game focused around the bum when you could make 'Sydney Finds Employment'?   

Several smaller series would more likely reach out more people, and these would also be easier to follow and get into as there could have 4 or 5 series with 15 games each, instead of one big series with 75 games.

I like this idea a lot.  Working as a group to create a series of "episodes" could create a bunch of interesting miniseries'.  Sign me up if this ever happens!

[SSH]

Perhaps the next OROW could have one rule: it must be a RON game?

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Or the next MAGS.

I did try to make a RON-themed Monthly Story Comp once. SSH's was the only entry, I believe... mine own was unfinished and uninteresting.

[DeviantGent]

RON certainly isnt dead. Me and Flibble have been brainstorming something special for RON for what must be about a year now, and it's finally starting to come to fruition. I wouldn't count on this funky little concept keeling over and dying yet...

[Zaidyer]

I've always felt that there are certain things about RoN that make it a challenge to work with, and not in a good way.

• No quality control. Some games are fun, but others are terrible wastes of time. Pretty much anything by Captain Mostly seems to be surreal attempts to dismantle the series, and poor Mika Huy keeps getting stuck in crappy dreams.
  
• No unified art style. Really, it's all over the map. If you're gonna let just anyone write a RoN game, you should at least teach them how to draw. Sphinx got it right by including art tutorials in their wiki, establishing a style simple enough that anyone who knows how to work with pixel art can pick it up. And for those who don't know, tutorials exist to teach the fundamentals.
  
• Series canon has become too rigid. "Davy Jones C'est Mort" should have been ignored immediately, but it wasn't. From that point on, every little detail in every little game has piled up to create quite a big mess that new authors will be hard-pressed to break into.
  
• Community support for new authors is low. Ideally, there would be a RoN wiki to point new authors to, with links to only the most pertinent articles they'll need to build games the RoN way. Currently, that doesn't exist. All you get is "You're building a RoN game? Cool! We'll wait."
  

In my opinion, all of these problems need to be addressed for RoN to be fixed.

[Dave Gilbert]

Sphinx never got off the ground, and from what I understand it's pretty much dead.  Comparing RoN to Sphinx isn't terribly fair.

The art style inconsistancy was part of the appeal, actually.  The first game set the standard - the graphics weren't stellar, but it was a style that anyone with a paint editor could mimic.  In theory, anyway.  Over time, better artists created better versions of the sprites and backgrounds, which were more of a treat than anything else.

Quality Control is a mixed bag.  As mentioned earlier, we shouldn't delete the crap games because we don't like em, but instead devise a way to show off the nicer games while leaving the crap ones to languish in obscurity. 

I would hardly classify RoN's cannon as "rigid."  People are pretty much free to do anything.  The davy jones death thing was the only major hurdle the series ever had, and that occured right at the beginning and was quickly dealt with.  The community didn't ignore it, but instead made it a bit of a running joke.   

As far as the inconsistancies go... what are they?  I knew the RoN history very well back in the day, and I don't remember any plot inconsistancies.  At least, none worth talking about. 

Lack of community support for new authors is a good point, although what else can be done if somebody announces a RoN game?  Nobody is going to help you make your game.  What else can the community do but wait?