Virginia Tech massacre

[Andail]

It's interesting that an overwhelming majority of americans advocate the second ammendment with the argument "so that the government can be overthrown in case it misbehaves", while not even 50% of the americans go to vote in their elections.
So they are very concerned about being able to change their government with brute force, but no so interested in doing it parliamentarily.

[Helm]

Firstly, the second ammendment of the constitution was put in place to ensure that the citizenry of the U.S. would have the arms necessary to over-throw their government should that government begin to resemble the governement they'd just fought and bled for years to defeat.  In modern (contemporary) times that's gotten a bit lost.

Wait a moment. In greece, where there's quite strong gun control - in cities at least - the constitution says that in the case that a goverment seizes power from the people (our constitution starts with saying that all power comes from the people and to the service of the people) and therefore becomes a dictatorship, the citizents have an obligation to take arms and overthrow this dictatorship. Obviously, the second the dictatorship is in effect, the country is in a state of lawlessness as far as the constitution is concerned, and as such. there is no legal power that the dictatorship can excert.

Gun control isn't an issue when you're fighting for democracy. I don't know if it's your misinterpreting the second amendment or if the founding fathers of your nation had a strange idea about causality, but the two things don't necessarily interfere. You can have gun control and still have people rally to reestablish democracy in the case it's overthrown by some tyrant.

In the case of an invading force of course a country has a regular army.

....so?

Again, YES there IS a problem in America (and the world) with violence and those that don't hold life in high regard.

There's also a problem in the US with people who don't hold anyone's life but those of their family and loved ones in high regard. Don't you think that's a bit of an issue?

BigBrother said before 'it's a shame students couldn't fire back at the killer'. Let's consider this for a second as a 'best case scenario'. Armed deranged student enters school, shoots five with automatic weapon before armed nonderanged student pulls a handgun and takes down deranged student. Hero student! Go, law of the west!... is this civilization, democracy and mild tempered tolerance? It seems a lot of people would not have such a problem with this scenario. This particular case the person is said to be very close to insanity and as such it's easy to vilify him and not consider him the source of pure evil without having to deal with the human aspect of the situation. But there's crazy strange kids in other places of the world, and a lot of them snap, and cut their throats, or kill their moms and drown themselves and whatever. It's not very often but in the US they decide to take up automatic weapons and go on murdering rampages. I think there's a violent culture issue. And I think it's an availability of weapons issue.

I'm not denying any of these things.  I'm simply saying that whether or not people want to admit it there are those that don't give a shit about human life

You mean like you when you said you didn't care about the execution of that 'douchebag' Stanley Tookie Williams? That sort of disrespect for human life? The way you spoke about something mindblowing as it is to TAKE SOMEONE'S LIFE so casually? The way you stiked him off of the 'human' roster because he was a murderer too?

It might be the case you're no 'good guy' in your video-game, Darth.

That's not me giving in to fear and propoganda.  It's a reality that has existed since the first human wanted the other human's rock-pile.

What the...? I'll be the first to underline the atavistic part of the human psyche as existent, important and not to be comfortably ignored, but we're talking about civilization here. Who argues based on human nature in such a conversation? The whole point of human civilization was the attempt to ease one's animalistic instinct to the point where a group of humans can live in relative harmony. Of course we still serve out our prime directives (mate, protect young, live in safety, excert power and control) within the confines of this civilization, and there's constant friction, but to mention 'it's just human nature to kill, bud' just zeroes the whole point of what most cultures are trying to do.

[Darth Mandarb]

It's interesting that an overwhelming majority of americans advocate the second ammendment with the argument "so that the government can be overthrown in case it misbehaves", while not even 50% of the americans go to vote in their elections.
So they are very concerned about being able to change their government with brute force, but no so interested in doing it parliamentarily.

Sad but true.

There's also a problem in the US with people who don't hold anyone's life but those of their family and loved ones in high regard. Don't you think that's a bit of an issue?

Yes, but AGAIN (and again, and again, and again ...) this isn't something unique to the U.S.  Must we keep generalizing?

It's not very often but in the US they decide to take up automatic weapons and go on murdering rampages. I think there's a violent culture issue. And I think it's an availability of weapons issue.

And I think it's naive to think that the availability of weapons is what's causing this violence.  As, again (and again, and again, and again...) there IS a problem in America with violence.  But trying to simplify it by saying, "They can so easily get a gun ... that's what made them violent" is just plain ignorant and dangerous.

Just because one CAN get a gun, doesn't mean they'll go off on a murdering rampage.

There are other [far deeper] issues in play.

You mean like you when you said you didn't care about the execution of that 'douchebag' Stanley Tookie Williams? That sort of disrespect for human life? The way you spoke about something mindblowing as it is to TAKE SOMEONE'S LIFE so casually? The way you stiked him off of the 'human' roster because he was a murderer too?

It might be the case you're no 'good guy' in your video-game, Darth.

Way to quote one particular part of a thread from two years ago!

As I stated very clearly in that thread: I hold human life very dear.  It's something I think no human being has the right to take from another.  However, should a person (man or woman) willingly and intentionally commit a murder than they forfeit their right to their own life.  They've taken somebody elses and thus, don't deserve the right/privelage of their own.  (and I believe the term I used was "scumbag")

Again (and again and again and again ...) you all can keep denying the realities of the world we live in if you want.  That's on you.  I hope (truely) that you never have to eat a reality sandwhich for lunch.

What the...? I'll be the first to underline the atavistic part of the human psyche as existent, important and not to be comfortably ignored, but we're talking about civilization here. Who argues based on human nature in such a conversation? The whole point of human civilization was the attempt to ease one's animalistic instinct to the point where a group of humans can live in relative harmony. Of course we still serve out our prime directives (mate, protect young, live in safety, excert power and control) within the confines of this civilization, and there's constant friction, but to mention 'it's just human nature to kill, bud' just zeroes the whole point of what most cultures are trying to do.

Again (and again, and again, and again...) you're clearly not seeing the [obvious] point I'm trying to make.

I never said it was human nature to kill, so didn't zero out anything.  As I've said (again and again and again...) in this thread I have no intention of taking a human life.  The statement about the first humans wanting the other's rock-pile was to point out that no matter how "cultured" and "enlightened" we become as a society ... there'll be violence present.  There'll always be those that covet what their neighbors have.  Do I like this fact?  No, certainly not.  Do I blindly deny this fact out of some flimsy utopian ideal?  Hell no.

I would love it if it were more difficult to obtain a gun.

I would love it if there were less guns on the street.

I would love it if there were [far] less violent crimes.

I would love it if I didn't have to feel the way I do about capital punishment.

Reality sucks.  I'd love it if I could just burry my head in the sand and deny it, but I can't.

[big brother]

Armed deranged student enters school, shoots five with automatic weapon before armed nonderanged student pulls a handgun and takes down deranged student. Hero student! Go, law of the west!... is this civilization, democracy and mild tempered tolerance?

In an emergency situation, the basic urge to survive (human nature) will override idealistic, civilized sentiments.

Law of the west or not, surely that hypothetical situation is a more desirable outcome than the "mild-tempered tolerance" of being slaughtered like sheep, with Nanny Gummint cowering outside until the gunfire subsides so she can zip up the bodybags?

[MrColossal]

Then why didn't someone stop the VT killer with a dangerous ball point pen because their nature to survive took over?

I also just want to jump in and say that as an American I get a totally different feel from these threads that focus on America. Darth, sometimes it seems that you fall back on "Everyone just hates america!" and fail to see the hundreds of other times that other countries get talked about and made fun of and torn down.

[Andail]

Big Brother, so the problem isn't that you have too many guns, the problem is that there are actually too few?

Wasn't the Wild West entirely built on the idea that if everyone carried a gun, everyone could carry out justice at whim?

Can you say it out loud that if everyone was forced to own a gun, gun-related violence would drop?

EDIT:
Yeah I agree with Eric. Why would these threads be based on a hatred towards USA? It's not like the guy killed a bunch of Swedes.
For once we discuss Americans killing Americans (as opposed to Americans killing Iraqis, which is the typical case), so this we debate out of concern and a desire to change things to the better, in America, for Americans.

[Helm]

Yes, but AGAIN (and again, and again, and again ...) this isn't something unique to the U.S.  Must we keep generalizing?

It's more prominent in the US in my opinion. Don't simplify what I say so it's more easy to attribute to a vacant generalization. This is called a strawman argument. Don't make strawmen out of my arguments. Thanks.

It's not very often but in the US they decide to take up automatic weapons and go on murdering rampages. I think there's a violent culture issue. And I think it's an availability of weapons issue.

And I think it's naive to think that the availability of weapons is what's causing this violence.  As, again (and again, and again, and again...) there IS a problem in America with violence.  But trying to simplify it by saying, "They can so easily get a gun ... that's what made them violent" is just plain ignorant and dangerous.

Are you talking to me or generally to the air? Because if you're talking to me, I never said the availability of weapons is what caused the violence. I said a culture of violence and fear is what causes the violence, and the easy availability of weapons makes the violence all that more bloody, prominent, and horrid. Please don't simplyfy my arguments. Please don't make strawmens of them. Thanks.

If you want to talk to the thread in general, by all means, but not in reply to a quote of mine. It's misleading.

Just because one CAN get a gun, doesn't mean they'll go off on a murdering rampage.

I agree.

There are other [far deeper] issues in play.

Culture. Of. Violence. Disregard for human life. The mentality "I will put my gun to the head of the one that potentially threatens my family or wants to take my belongings".

Way to quote one particular part of a thread from two years ago!

It was a stunning display of ignorance I'm not likely to forget anytime soon.

As I stated very clearly in that thread: I hold human life very dear.  It's something I think no human being has the right to take from another.  However, should a person (man or woman) willingly and intentionally commit a murder than they forfeit their right to their own life.  They've taken somebody elses and thus, don't deserve the right/privelage of their own.  (and I believe the term I used was "scumbag")

Blah blah blah you hold life very dear but murdering criminals must die. Culture of violence.

Again (and again and again and again ...) you all can keep denying the realities of the world we live in if you want.  That's on you.  I hope (truely) that you never have to eat a reality sandwhich for lunch.

It's ignorant to presume I am out of touch with reality because I am proposing more humanist methods of dealing with murderers, or am against easy gun ownership. It's just begging to be flamed. I have had my share of reality, I've delt with mortality. And it's because I've lost people that I find the concept of humans killing humans maddening and unfathomable. A human life cruelly ending well beyond its prime is the most horrible thing and I am not easy to say 'kill 'em when they're bad' as you are.

there'll be violence present.

Of course. But does a culture of violence, and easy access to guns lead to less violence or more violence? I want less violence. I am not living in some fantasy world where there's no violence. I am living in europe where there's no suicidal rampages at schools with 30 people dead... yet, at least.

There'll always be those that covet what their neighbors have.  Do I like this fact?  No, certainly not.  Do I blindly deny this fact out of some flimsy utopian ideal?  Hell no.

Strawman. You're talking to me. I never once said anything utopian. If you're talking to the rest of the forum, talk to the rest of the forum, not to me. Don't discredit what I say for what it isn't.

I would love it if it were more difficult to obtain a gun.

Cool. Agree.

I would love it if there were less guns on the street.

Agree again. Vote for it.

I would love it if there were [far] less violent crimes.

Who wouldn't?

I would love it if I didn't have to feel the way I do about capital punishment.

Then why don't you start feeling different about capital punishment, Darth? It's not very difficult. You just say 'I was wrong, and I am contradicting myself by holding the sanctity of human life foremost and in the same breath saying people are not human if they exceed their ratio of bad deeds and therefore to be put to death by their fellow humans.'

Reality sucks.  I'd love it if I could just burry my head in the sand and deny it, but I can't.

I'm sure more guns for all make reality quite a bit more bearable.

Law of the west or not, surely that hypothetical situation is a more desirable outcome than the "mild-tempered tolerance" of being slaughtered like sheep, with Nanny Gummint cowering outside until the gunfire subsides so she can zip up the bodybags?

Between the two I choose law of the west. But the two are not the only options. This is misleading to believe. How about long-term plans that will remove this culture of fear that breeds all this needless killing to begin with? Such plans will naturally include gun limitation as part of them, not as some sensationalist knee-jerk reaction to yet another rampage. How about being able to live in relative safety and to not fear a stranger walking outside your house all the time? How about less Mad Max and more Civilization. You're only living in, oh, the self-appointed bastion of western morality. Make a good example.

[Gregjazz]

Yes, but AGAIN (and again, and again, and again ...) this isn't something unique to the U.S.  Must we keep generalizing?

It's more prominent in the US in my opinion.

This is a statement where opinions really don't matter; tangible evidence is required for a statement of the sort.

Culture. Of. Violence. Disregard for human life. The mentality "I will put my gun to the head of the one that potentially threatens my family or wants to take my belongings".

Your pacifistic values sound cute, but when someone's threatening your life and the lives of your loved ones, you're going to wish you had some way of defending yourself.

Is it a culture of violence? Let me give you a hypothetical situation--if you had the opportunity to stop Cho Seung-hui right before he shot those first two people (and you observed that it was obvious that was his intention), or right after he shot those first two people, to prevent him from killing even more, would you take it? Your voluntary inactivity would put the blood of those 32 people (and those injured also) on your own hands.

[big brother]

I want less violence. I am not living in some fantasy world where there's no violence. I am living in europe where there's no suicidal rampages at schools with 30 people dead... yet, at least.

So you're saying Europe is more civilized and less Mad Max? Before VTech, the second largest school shooting was in Germany.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1952869.stm

And since you keep mentioning a "culture of violence", what about the widespread riots in Paris? I remember picking up a textbook once and seeing something about a few thousand years worth of war in Europe, too. Hmmm... Oh, but it's up to the US to make a good example, I forgot.

[Nikolas]

Ok Guys

So you're simply saying that all is fine in the US, that there isnt' a violent culture that keeps rising, that guns are not a problem, that generally all is fine right? Cause this is what I'm seeing from the last two posts (to which I'm reffering).

The fact that the life of your loved ones is threatened, isn't a sign of violence it self? Why in Europe (ok UK and Greece where I've lived), we simply don't think this way?

Anyways, if you feel that all is fine in the US, no reason to discuss thing. Cause I was here discussing that there seems to be something wrong, and that gun outlawed won't solve it, but anyways...

All is fine then...

you don't see it a problem to feel threatened all the time and fear for your life. Ok. No prob here then

[Helm]

If someone wants to talk numbers, go right ahead. I know numbers can be read any way people want too, it's not going to magically make people agree on this thread. There's violence in other parts of the world than the US, but we're talking gun deaths, gun ownership, crazed killers with automatic weapons.

Your pacifistic values sound cute, but when someone's threatening your life and the lives of your loved ones, you're going to wish you had some way of defending yourself.

This is not going to happen 99.9% to me. The odds are very slight. If I bring a weapon inside my home so I can feel 'safe' against such an odd, then I should never go out in the street where a car is far more likely to run me over. I get to live my life not pondering violent death every new level of the dungeon because guess what! I live in a civilized society!

Shit happens still. So what.

The odds are worse in the US, but as I said, who is benefitting from this, who is feeding this, and is it a self-fulfilling prophecy? If you cultivate a culture of violence you'll reap violence. Then you say 'we need the guns against the violence'. Oh come on.

And since you keep mentioning a "culture of violence", what about the widespread riots in Paris? I remember picking up a textbook once and seeing something about a few thousand years worth of war in Europe, too. Hmmm... Oh, but it's up to the US to make a good example, I forgot. Wink

Wink wink! This conversation is awesome! Let's wink at helm because we're sarcastic and can't make a straight-ahead argument without resorting to our amazing cynicism.

There's violence in other parts of the world, for many reasons. We're talking about gun violence, gun ownership. What is the point you're trying to make here? That europeans kill people and have killed people in the past? Yes they have. This isn't an US vs YOU game in which if we all are after all not blameless, we can all rest somewhat easier that we're both in a shitty situation. Someone just killed 30 students with an automatic weapon. It might have happened in germany, it might happen in greece tomorrow. But how many times has it happened in the US, and how many times will it happen again?

[Darth Mandarb]

It's more prominent in the US in my opinion. Don't simplify what I say so it's more easy to attribute to a vacant generalization. This is called a strawman argument. Don't make strawmen out of my arguments. Thanks.

Quit creating weak generalizations about Americans and I'll quit pointing it out.  Whether or not you think it's 'strawman' or something else.

It was a stunning display of ignorance I'm not likely to forget anytime soon.

Blah blah blah you hold life very dear but murdering criminals must die. Culture of violence.

A stunning display of ignorance huh?  So you think it's okay to commit murder as long as you make up for it afterwards?  Yeah, that'll really deter violent scumbags from committing murder.  Grand idea.

It's ignorant to presume I am out of touch with reality because I am proposing more humanist methods of dealing with murderers, or am against easy gun ownership. It's just begging to be flamed.

I didn't say you were out of touch with reality for the reasons quoted above.  You're out of touch with reality because you seem to think "more humanist methods of dealing with murderers" is going to have some effect on the rate of violent crimes.  You're out of touch with reality because you seem to think "easy gun ownership" is causing violence.

Trust me, it's not me begging to be flamed.

Of course. But does a culture of violence, and easy access to guns lead to less violence or more violence? I want less violence. I am not living in some fantasy world where there's no violence. I am living in europe where there's no suicidal rampages at schools with 30 people dead... yet, at least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan

Must have been that damn Culture. Of. Violence. in America finding it's way across the pond ....

Strawman. You're talking to me. I never once said anything utopian. If you're talking to the rest of the forum, talk to the rest of the forum, not to me. Don't discredit what I say for what it isn't.

Trust me, I don't need to discredit what you say.

Then why don't you start feeling different about capital punishment, Darth? It's not very difficult. You just say 'I was wrong, and I am contradicting myself by holding the sanctity of human life foremost and in the same breath saying people are not human if they exceed their ratio of bad deeds and therefore to be put to death by their fellow humans.'

I'm not wrong.  I stated my beliefs.  Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong.

[LimpingFish]

I actually spent a lot of time gathering quotes from this thread to use in this post, but in all honestly I just don't have the energy to debate them anymore.

Regardless of what people think, I don't hate America. I have never stated such, and I'm tired of people responding to me as if I had. I'm not asking America to agree with me, I'm just stating how I feel.

The control of guns in America is a complex issue, and one that, as someone stated earlier,
people tend to only see in black and white.

Being from outside the US, the whole situation just seems alien to me. I don't understand how anyone could relax in such an enviroment where the person standing next to you could be armed (regardless of his intentions). I'm not asking America to agree with me, I'm just stating how I feel.

I'm not going to champion other countries as being better for having stricter gun laws, as all societies have their problems.

So I'll simply say...

America, I love you. But I hate your fucked-up ways.

[Helm]

oh, darth.

[Gregjazz]

you don't see it a problem to feel threatened all the time and fear for your life. Ok. No prob here then

I would feel fear for my life all the time and threatened if I lived in a--what Helm calls a "culture of violence"--and didn't have some method of self-defense.

[Darth Mandarb]

oh, helm

[Nacho]

Sorry Eric, but I honestly believe that the amount of threads refered directly to America, and the degree of bashing on them, is overwhelming if compared to the threads refered to the sum of the rest of the Countries of the world.

How many threads have finished being a bitter fight "America Vs. The rest of the World" lately?

***Dramatization***

As far as I remember, a discussion about silly bright advertisements ended into "Yeah, man... America sucks". One about conspiration theories ended saying that, "yeah... Bush bombed the WTC, Americans are all idiots for having him there"

Then one about an idiot saying that violence is caused by videogames finished into "this american fundamentalists are really nuts, ain' t they?"

Religions threads use to finish into bashing american TV preachers. Don't missunderstand me... I think this TV preachers are quite horrible, but the level of devotion I see in that TV shows are not bigger than the ones seen in the Spanish Easter or in the religious ceremonies in Sicily.

A thread about POTC 2 turns into how lame Holywood movies are, and a discussion about operation systems turn into "Bill Gates is a Nazi". That for not mentioning about the discussions about petrol and Iraq.

***End of dramatization***

I' ve seen here, written by probably the most polite member in all the forums, this:

My opinion about America is similar to, "Hey! I hated the Nazi regime, but the Volkswagen was a great car"

See? He was not saying "Yes, America is great, but has problems" Like, let' s say, Big Brother thinks... Or "America is just as bad as any other culture" as I might think... He is not even thinking "America is worst than other cultures". No.

He is directly comparing America with a criminal regime (The Nazis), and saying that "only punctual aspects" (like the Volkswagen) deserve to be saved. Do you think that is logical?

Please, Eric, can you do the mental effort of imagining the raction after I (Or Darth, or EagerMind, or BigBrother, or RickJ) type something like:

"I hate the black people, but, hey! Hip hop is great!"

Frankly, I imagine that I (or Darth, or Eager, or BB or RickJ) would be thrown (with reason) to the lions.

Why nobody complains when it happens in the other direction?

Why insults are not allowed ***except if they are refered to America***?

Don' t missunderstand me. I am not saying that stupid opinions (like hate to black people, religions or other cultures) should be allowed because bashing America is allowed.

I am saying that bashing America shouldn' t be allowed. At least in the "happy" and "systematic" way it is.

We are carefull when we talk about 197 countries of the World. We simply loss that care when we talk about America. And that is unfair, because changing the personal behaviour in front of a person because its "race, religion, sex or precedure" is discrimination, I think.

This forums are too cool to enter into a spiral of discrimination...  

EDIT:

Nikolas:

So you're simply saying that all is fine in the US

No, Nikolas... If you see the post of 90% of the American members, you won' t read "Everything is fine in the US". What you' ll probably see if you read them carefully is that they say "Come on, guys! Not everything is ok, but at least not everything is shit, ok?"

[Helm]

We are carefull when we talk about 197 countries of the World. We simply loss that care when we talk about America. And that is unfair, because changing the personal behaviour in front of a person because its "race, religion, sex or precedure" is discrimination, I think.

we are not talking about america on the whole. How many times will this have to be repeated until you get it, Nacho? We are talking about specific possible pathology with aspects of its culture or administration. The only one perpetuating this 'people vs america HATE SPEECH!' thing is you, and a few users on the forum who also misconstrue criticism of specific aspects of a culture as a hateful bash against the whole country of people.

You are creating what you complain is your problem. It's not real. You are making it exist. This is what happened before, this is what happens now, this is why you left the forums before. How much longer before you realize america doesn't need you to stand up for it in these forums as we're not attacking america on the whole.

If you want to criticize the internal policies of the russians, go right ahead. If I have anything pertinent to add I'll be right there.

[Tuomas]

I think the problem there is, that America as such a big country provides us with examples that apply to every criteria when looking for something to shout about. And it's always easy to yell at the big than at a smaller country. Say, the big guy is thought of the strongest, so itting him will cause less damage, and then you realise it's just as bad.

Well I'd love to keep this in just guns, but when, and clearly only people defending guns here are Americans, it tends to give the conversation an unwanted turn.

[MrColossal]

""Come on, guys! Not everything is ok, but at least not everything is shit, ok?""

If this is what someone is saying then why are they even in the debate in the first place? That's not something that can be debated or even spoken to really. The most you can say to that is "Oh, yea... Alright?"

Hollywood? Bill Gates? So what? They aren't America. One is a place and the other is a person. I hate Carlos Mencia, I don't think he's funny in the slightest and he seemingly rips off other comedians. This is not bashing America!