How large a faux pas is ripping?

[quixotecoyote]

I lack any drawing skills, yet I wanted to make an AGS game.  So I took rips from old video games for background and object graphics.  The result is a mixed bag graphically, but I'm giving plenty of love to the story and scripting.  I've seen a few games get criticized for using ripped graphics.

Exactly how frowned upon is that here?

[Tuomas]

I'd rather say own graphics are much more appreciated. Say, even abad game with good selfmade graphics is better than a good game with ripped off graphics imo. We see a lot of MI games with ripped graphics also, which here is something that doesn't have much new to give, so they're most often not played. However, using photographs as bgs could work mighty well. I don't think anyone will hate you for using ripped graphics, but they won't salute to it since it's always like the easy way out. As long as they fit each other and don't look like a mess, I don't really see a problem doing it one this or the other way. I would recommend you to ask around if someone was willing to help you with the graphics. I mean, with a story and a game already done, it'd be easy to find someone who wanted to help you make it better

[Akatosh]

Your graphics don't need to be any realistic. If you're unable to draw (like me), pick something rather simplistic, stick with it and call it a "style".

[Radiant]

There are a few packs of free graphics available on the resources page. That might help.

[quixotecoyote]

There are a few packs of free graphics available on the resources page. That might help.

I looked at those, but they weren't what I needed.

Besides, what's the difference between taking the backgrounds from the resources page and yanking them out of King of Fighters?

I'm slightly less than 1/5 of the way finished with the game.  Maybe when I get done I'll ask if anyone wants to do art for it, but I can't imagine anyone would want to invest that much time in someone else's baby.

[Tuomas]

Unless the baby was 25 and a gorgeous blonde. Also, we have stepdads for that purpose. You never know

[InCreator]

Besides, what's the difference between taking the backgrounds from the resources page and yanking them out of King of Fighters?

Take a look at both and ask again.
If that's what you intended to do, I seriously suggest not to.

[quixotecoyote]

Besides, what's the difference between taking the backgrounds from the resources page and yanking them out of King of Fighters?

Take a look at both and ask again.
If that's what you intended to do, I seriously suggest not to.

Please don't be cryptic.  If there is something I need to know, please tell me what it is.

[Ghost]

Ripping from KOF means you steal material that is copyrighted. Taking graphics from the resource page means you take material that has been released for free use.

I'm all for making your own graphics, too. It's always okay to use other people's art as a reference, but you will get the most satisfaction if you do that stuff yourself, even if it means simpler graphics. It's yours then, and that feeling can't be beaten.
Not even by KOF. Not even by Chuck Norris!

[InCreator]

Please don't be cryptic.  If there is something I need to know, please tell me what it is.

Okay. While free resources are mostly amateurish,  nameless, simple and functional bits of  graphic you can use, made by amateur artists... KOF is a whole universe with set story, huge fanbase and of course - world's best animators from Japan behind the graphics.

There's a  huge difference whether you use some free GFX or rip a piece of other world apart. Plus, as said, it's illegal. And you can make as good game you could, people who know KOF will probably hate it.

[quixotecoyote]

Hmm.  As far as the legality, my understanding is that under US law this would fall under a fair use exception as:

1. The substance of the use is transformative, not derivative.
2. Only an insubstantial part of any given work is being used.
3. No effect on the potential market of the original work
4. No commercial intent.

I realize ags is based out of the UK, laws may be different over there.


Do you really think I'd get KoF fans angry about the use of a background from the 2003 Kof?  It seems like an rather extreme prediction.

eta: Actually I checked what I had and I don't actually have any KoF rips.  some Street Fighter 2 and Monster Rancher 2, but no KoF backgrounds.  I wonder how I got that mixed up.

[Ghost]

1. The substance of the use is transformative, not derivative.
2. Only an insubstantial part of any given work is being used.
3. No effect on the potential market of the original work
4. No commercial intent.

Thin ice that should be avoided. Because you could, on your fact, say that it is okay for me to use the character Lara Croft in an adventure  game of my own if I use only a few of her walkcycle frames (or, indeed, only her name) and release said game for free. Sounds pretty unlikely that nobody would object if I did, though.

[quixotecoyote]

1. The substance of the use is transformative, not derivative.
2. Only an insubstantial part of any given work is being used.
3. No effect on the potential market of the original work
4. No commercial intent.

Thin ice that should be avoided. Because you could, on your fact, say that it is okay for me to use the character Lara Croft in an adventure  game of my own if I use only a few of her walkcycle frames (or, indeed, only her name) and release said game for free. Sounds pretty unlikely that nobody would object if I did, though.

I disagree that they are equivalent.  It seems that using the name Lara Croft would could theorhetically divert money from licensed Tomb Raider games, something my situation avoids.

I'm going ahead and making this regardless, as it's intended as a present for a specific person, but I wanted to get a feel for the sensitivities on this forum before I posted any of it in AGS Games in Production or Critics Lounge.  I know some people here have strong opinions about this and I'd rather not bother with creating flamewar threads.

[InCreator]

Hey, you can be politically correct on all aspects, why not. And if you're looking for hard, cold proof that you shouldn't use KOF graphics, you won't find it.

It isn't about written rules or copyrights. Yeah, go ahead and rip these magnificent backgrounds. You might do well and make a popular game.

But more likely, you won't.

It's just something that no-one does, and even if somebody does, it usually fails.
Otherwise, why couldn't every AGSer get an emulator and rip all these nice pixel games dry?
Every member could have few games at their account, wouldn't this be easy?

But people don't do that.
They draw by themselves, as good or bad it isn't, post images at critics lounge, learn-learn-improve.
It's difficult to explain. But by going the easy way, you will be lower than the very beginners at art.

That's why effort counts over quality.
And that's why even incredibly beginner, MSPainted - if there's effort visible in it - background beats all the nice scenery KOF could offer.

To be a bit more positive, I'll tell you this: Adventure games need functional, not incredibly pretty graphics. You don't have to draw super-realistic scenes or have a degree in fine arts. What's important is that the things you draw WORK together, and is recognizable by human eye (i.e. door looks like door, hehe).

If you're going for ripping, better make sure that you can either rip all you need from same place/style or edit various things so they'd match. If you get all bg-s and characters from KOF, but are unable to draw or rip - for example gui buttons or inventory icons to match the style, you're pretty much failed. Think about it before jumping onto this "thin ice" as said.
We cannot argue about this, because logic says that there's nothing that can stop you. But eh, you're free to try.
I just wouldn't and stay at this point.

If you are unsure about your art skills, show something in Critics lounge and see what people suggest. It's more likely that you like your art less than everybody else.

Anyway, to spare you from further discussion, I'd get onto topic:

Q: Exactly how frowned upon is that here?

A: More than enough to reconsider

[quixotecoyote]

Thanks.

I've got a sketchbook filled cover to cover of attempts to improve and it's just not happening, so I'll do what I have to to produce the best I can.  I've got the bearing of what the values  are here, so I may not  be reading the thread to respond to further replies.  Feel free to post at me if you want though.

[LimpingFish]

As long as you don't plan to charge for you game, using ripped graphics is only a problem if somebody decides to make it one. Most individuals really couldn't care less if your uses ripped graphics, and as long as you're not explictly claiming a game is officially linked to, say, King of Fighters , or is connected to SNK Playmore in any way, then, this being the real world, I wouldn't worry about it.

The Digital Spell uses ripped character graphics, and some people really liked it. As far as I know it's creator was never presented with a Cease and Desist, or threatened with legal action.

A common mistake with using ripped graphics is telling people beforehand that you are going to use ripped graphics. Just do it.

[Ghost]

I disagree that they are equivalent.  It seems that using the name Lara Croft would could theorhetically divert money from licensed Tomb Raider games, something my situation avoids.

Without wanting to sound stubborn, I think that each situation where copyrighted material is included in an indie game is "thin ice". There have been many attempts at fan games, for example, that were stomped down because some company really found the idea of re-using a decade-old character/name/brand pretty offensive. And Monster Rancher alone is a large brand, and one that's still used. But well.

On a totally lighter note, I really suggest you do your own artwork. You say you have trouble making progress. So what? Troubled progress is still progress. Have a good look at the games page; you will see that the people here are pretty forgiving about bad graphics. But ripping is not only a strange, uncomfortable situation, it's a problem. Let's say you find some nice background art, or a sprite. It's pretty unlikely you will find all the material to make one game out of it. So you'll have to mix it- with your own artwork or ripped stuff from other sources, and that'll never be satisfying.

[Radiant]

Hmm.  As far as the legality, my understanding is that under US law this would fall under a fair use exception as:

You are most probably incorrect, as any game using KOF sprites would plausibly be considered a derivative work, and using the characters is very much substantial, and the marketing division will claim that you are diluting their marketing potential.

More to the point, in what passes for a legal system in America, an indie developer does not have the resources to have any hope of winning a court battle from a corporation, should they decide to cease-and-desist and/or sue him.

[LimpingFish]

I agree about fan games, but infringing on an IP goes way beyond ripping sprites.

In many cases these games were using trademarked brand names, thus making an association, however tenuous, with established IPs. You are therefore far more likely to incur the wrath of Vivendi's or LucasArt's lawyers, and the like, that way.

The only downside to ripping sprites is that you get no artistic or creative satisfaction. Other than that...

[ManicMatt]

Other than that...

..they could make a game for Blind people.