tv-links.co.uk Shut Down

[Stupot]

I noticed this site wasn't working the other day, but hat's nothing new, they quite often went down for a few days here and there.

But then I looked at their Wikipedia entry and found out they'd been shut down.

Here is a link to the Guardian Unlimited article about it.

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2195407,00.html

This is a disgrace... they were not hosting any illegal material, just pointing us in the right direction.

What does everyone else think about this travesty?

[radiowaves]

I say its a big fuck.

Where can I now watch my documentaries?

Luckily there are some other places, still not so great, but at least something 

A big fuck you to the corporate bastards.

[Stupot]

Where are these "other places" you speak of?

[radiowaves]

some forums

[Nikolas]

Ok, hold on a minute.

I'm not sure about tv-links (though I did use it occasionally), but in order to watch TV, the channels need to pay the producers, etc. Same with radio.

The site, if it did not pay, and from the Guardian article, it appears that it is called "pirate" so it appears that it didn't pay (though, not sure) why should it stay open?

I mean, are we all fucked up in the mind, and want to go for the free stuff, simply to save a few $?

Come on! Same with P2P, same with everything. Fucked up morality I think, and the easiness of doing it!

EDIT: Just to clarify a bit further:

TV-links was earning shitloads of money through ads, I reckon. The problem is not that the viewers should pay, but that the site should.

[voh]

Fact remains that TV-links.co.uk did NOT host any copyrighted information. It merely linked to the sites it was hosted on. Technically speaking, they weren't pirates, since they weren't offering any copyrighted material.

Sadly companies have a hard time distinguishing between those who host and those who link.

If TV-links.co.uk is liable for stuff on other people's servers, so is Google.

Signed,
the recipient of many cease&desists based on his link site which hosts no copyrighted material.

[Nikolas]

Indeed what you say may stand true Voh, but still if I recall correctly (which I'm not sure at all) Family guy that I did watch on TV-links, was streamed from tv-links...

Anyways, I just feel that it's a bit of a ridiculous comment that "we just keep links, the hostings are done elsewhere, got get them", like the crack sites, that have a 1000s list of crack codes for every possible program and go "we have them here for fun. If anyone uses them to actually crack a program, its' not our fault"...

[Darth Mandarb]

When will these idiots learn?

Shut down 1000 sites like TV-links and 2000 more will spring up.  They are NEVER going to stop the piracy stuff.  No matter what they try, no matter what they do.  What they should do is stop whining about it and spend time and money making more stuff for pirates to offer up.

Here's my proposition to all the TV, movie, music production companies:

Instead of throwing your money away on lost causes (anti-piracy and 'net trading) why not give the money to some medical research (cure for cancer, etc).  It's a much more attainable, worthy, cause.

It's their businesses and they can do with them what they like, but there's just a point where you have to stare logic and common sense in the face and realize you're fighting a battle you will never win.

[Nikolas]

As a composer and creator of copyrighted stuff, who I'm trying to earn a living, at some point of my life, by composing, I have to say that I'm highly insulted by your post Darth.

We have discussed the piracy issue before, and we did reach an agreement that there is nothing philosophical or deep to piracy, as you do it. t's just easy to download mp3s, while it's not THAT easy to download DVDs and thus you don't! I won't go about linking right now, but this is what I think happens...

As I said, people who do not create, or don't try to make a living, or don't have responsibilities just think that everything should be free, especially the intelectual property, and how you deal with it. Pretty much that everyone should compose, and use their resources, money, talent, experience, knowledge etc, and then give it away for free...

What a world we've ended up living in

Dead Darth, it's not that the battle cannot be won, this is common sense, as you say, and highly logical. Additionally I believe very much in the power of the Internet, etc. It's the hidden degrade of morality which comes along with piracy. It's the fact that values (especially when it comes to intelectual property) have reached lower points than every before.

[voh]

Indeed what you say may stand true Voh, but still if I recall correctly (which I'm not sure at all) Family guy that I did watch on TV-links, was streamed from tv-links...

tv-links had *no* files on their own server. They used a popup window which embedded the video player from the other sites (such as Guba, Dailymotion, Stage6 etc.). So while it may have seemed that it was streamed from tv-links, it was always from a remote server which had nothing to do with tv-links itself.

Anyways, I just feel that it's a bit of a ridiculous comment that "we just keep links, the hostings are done elsewhere, got get them", like the crack sites, that have a 1000s list of crack codes for every possible program and go "we have them here for fun. If anyone uses them to actually crack a program, its' not our fault"...

But the cracks sites HOST the cracks. Once more, tv-links didn't host copyrighted material or ways to "crack" or decrypt video files. All tv-links did was have links to other sites. If linking to illegal stuff is illegal, telling someone where he or she might be able to purchase, for example, Mein Kampf (which is banned in many locations) if equally illegal.

And that I don't agree with. Offering illegal material is punishable. That's fine with me. What I refuse to accept is being punishable for showing where the stuff can be found. These link sites are USEFUL for companies since they can follow the links from there instead of having to find them themselves.

Funny thing is that my own site was, after a few cease&desists, used by a game company to track down sites which had their games on it. I felt kind of used but after inquiry they did state that they felt that I wasn't doing anything wrong as I did not host illegal material anywhere on my server.

Just like tv-links.

And Darth: You're absolutely right.

Instead of focusing on WHY people pirate so damn much (25 euro for a music album of which 25 cents go to the artist? Especially if most people use MP3 players and therefore would then have to spend a while transferring their CD to MP3, and then never use the CD again?) they just want to punish and keep everything the same.

The market evolves, people!

More money to the artists! Decent prices!

Those two things would make me buy more and, well, 'appropriate' less.

Addendum to Nikolas: Yes there IS a deeper thing to piracy to a lot of people. Media is effin' expensive and what do you get for it? I'm not paying 25 euro for a CD if the composer doesn't get more than a quarter euro. I see my non-buying behaviour as a boycott, and the industry IS noticing a decrease in worldwide sales. The less we buy, the more acceptable the prices will become. A lot of artists (see Radiohead) are starting to see record companies are USELESS nowadays. All they do is make up 99% of the pricetag in payback, and the remaining 1% is for the artists.

I refuse to buy something to support an archaic and obsolete thing as a 'traditional' record company, with their stranglehold-contracts, shitty payouts and 'holier than thou' attitude.

And I'm insulted that you say pirates (amongst which would be me) simply do it because it's easy. I do NOT think everything should be free. Intellectual property is very important to me, but if I put out a CD and ask 25 euro for it, I'll understand why it's being downloaded illegally instead, which is why I'd never ask 25 euro (more like 10).

Your assumptions are very coloured because you see piracy as something which hits you as a professional. I understand that, but by generalizing you're not going to get a lot of sympathy.

[Nikolas]

tv-links had *no* files on their own server. They used a popup window which embedded the video player from the other sites (such as Guba, Dailymotion, Stage6 etc.). So while it may have seemed that it was streamed from tv-links, it was always from a remote server which had nothing to do with tv-links itself.

As I said I wasn't sure...

But the cracks sites HOST the cracks. Once more, tv-links didn't host copyrighted material or ways to "crack" or decrypt video files. All tv-links did was have links to other sites. If linking to illegal stuff is illegal, telling someone where he or she might be able to purchase, for example, Mein Kampf (which is banned in many locations) if equally illegal.

And that I don't agree with. Offering illegal material is punishable. That's fine with me. What I refuse to accept is being punishable for showing where the stuff can be found. These link sites are USEFUL for companies since they can follow the links from there instead of having to find them themselves.

Fair enough but it was an example. Imagine that a site ONLY has links to illegal material and nothing more. Somehow it seems that the existance of this site is ONLY for linking such sites, etc. Although not illegal per se, it certainly is being used only to faciliate such movements.

And Darth: You're absolutely right.

Instead of focusing on WHY people pirate so damn much (25 euro for a music album of which 25 cents go to the artist? Especially if most people use MP3 players and therefore would then have to spend a while transferring their CD to MP3, and then never use the CD again?) they just want to punish and keep everything the same.

The market evolves, people!

More money to the artists! Decent prices!

Those two things would make me buy more and, well, 'appropriate' less.

This is rather sily.

If you don't want that, go to concerts, give donations to band straight away.

I was the one who opened the Radiohead thread, remember? And I'm all for that. Don't think I'm coloured!

addendum to Nikolas: Yes there IS a deeper thing to piracy to a lot of people. Media is effin' expensive and what do you get for it? I'm not paying 25 euro for a CD if the composer doesn't get more than a quarter euro. I see my non-buying behaviour as a boycott, and the industry IS noticing a decrease in worldwide sales. The less we buy, the more acceptable the prices will become. A lot of artists (see Radiohead) are starting to see record companies are USELESS nowadays. All they do is make up 99% of the pricetag in payback, and the remaining 1% is for the artists.

I refuse to buy something to support an archaic and obsolete thing as a 'traditional' record company, with their stranglehold-contracts, shitty payouts and 'holier than thou' attitude.

And I'm insulted that you say pirates (amongst which would be me) simply do it because it's easy. I do NOT think everything should be free. Intellectual property is very important to me, but if I put out a CD and ask 25 euro for it, I'll understand why it's being downloaded illegally instead, which is why I'd never ask 25 euro (more like 10).

Your assumptions are very coloured because you see piracy as something which hits you as a professional. I understand that, but by generalizing you're not going to get a lot of sympathy.

1. I'm not going for sympathy! I don't give a shit, if you want to know really.

Now, you refuse to buy, but you want to listen/see? Isn't this oxymoron on it's own really? You don't want to buy? Be my guest! Don't buy! I'm all for that, and I also buy very few stuff. But I don't get them anyways. Why do you need to get them?




You want to get all idealistic etc with me? fine!

Piracy is NOT helping per se (and this is aimed only for this discussion. See other posts to see that I do think that it helps, and that it is huge advertising, and that I do see the point in that), but if you really want to say all those things you say, just don't download the tracks anymore. Either way, the artists (as you say, although not true, and you're forgetin that making a CD, is MORE than the band, HUGELY more) get 1 euro/$ per sale, so you refuse to even give them that, on some lame excuse, and you get it for free...



Give me some real arguments when you come back mate.



Finally:

Want my music? Get it, go to my site and get it. And while you're at it get also my scores, also there, and a cubase project with the whole midi files on them. Don't tell me I'm coloured. Have you ever seen me sell anything to you, or anybody?

I was talking to Darth, and made it clear that I was getting references from other threads in here.

yet again: Darth downloads mp3s, but not movies. why is that? Because it's plainly easy! there is nothing idealistic, or political or anything into that. it's EASY!

You feel you it's much deeper? I do too. So I have other way to promote my music, and make my money as well and I'm open minded.

[voh]

Thank you for that, seemingly I was wrong in calling your opinion coloured.

However, I think that if a band was put to the question, on whether they'd rather have a person not buy their CD and not listen to it and a person not buy the CD and listen to it, they'd still prefer the latter. Microsoft Windows got big on the back of illegal copies. Bands have become popular due to it. Following that, I agree with your statement that piracy, in a way, is good advertising.

I download television shows, which is technically illegal. I download shows that are shown here, for which I've already paid through way of viewer taxes included in television costs. There are shows that aren't shown here, but how can I be pirating something I can't legally purchase? Good question

The point of this topic remains that it's unfair that tv-links gets punished for linking to other people's illegal activity. And that I can't support.

[FSi++]

ok, there was some discussion while I was writing that, but what the hell.

We have discussed the piracy issue before, and we did reach an agreement that there is nothing philosophical or deep to piracy, as you do it. t's just easy to download mp3s, while it's not THAT easy to download DVDs and thus you don't! I won't go about linking right now, but this is what I think happens...

1. There's nothing philosophical or deep to the copyrights either.

As I said, people who do not create, or don't try to make a living, or don't have responsibilities just think that everything should be free, especially the intelectual property, and how you deal with it. Pretty much that everyone should compose, and use their resources, money, talent, experience, knowledge etc, and then give it away for free...

2. In its current state copyright doesn't support creativity either. It only supports creating (best if only once) something big and popular - not good, mind you, popular - and milking it for the rest of your life AND seventy years after that moment.
It's not that everyone should work for free; it's that information is free ab initio and imposing any restrictions on that freedom is at least short-sighted.
3. About earning money... Nobody stops you from charging for CD's, DVD's, printed books or other 'feelies' - these are the real goods AND they do have limited supply. On the other hand, MP3's, AVI's etc. do have unlimited supply - why must we apply the same property laws on them? I mean, "stealing" a song isn't like stealing a bicycle - after all if bicycles were completely free and everybody could have any amount of bicycles (of any kind) he or she wanted, then taking other person's bike wouldn't be a crime!

It's the hidden degrade of morality which comes along with piracy. It's the fact that values (especially when it comes to intelectual property) have reached lower points than every before.

It's the hidden degrade of morality which comes along with copyrights. It's the fact that human rights (especially when it comes to education and self-development) have reached lower points than every before.

Your point of view looks too tight and narrow to me; it's always useful to look at things from the different perspective - in your case I recommend the site called simply http://questioncopyright.org/ - and it's not some teeny piratey site, it's hold by Karl Fogel who wrote (and is selling) some books himself.

p.s.:

Want my music? Get it, go to my site and get it. And while you're at it get also my scores, also there, and a cubase project with the whole midi files on them. Don't tell me I'm coloured. Have you ever seen me sell anything to you, or anybody?

What you're doing is fine, and ok thing to do, BUT the question is, shouldn't everyone else do it that way?
Just for example:
- Legal copy of Borat here costs just 50% more than pirated one, and it's not the matter of PRICE behind me NOT buying it. It's the fact that that particular copy has only ONE sound track (DUBBED in Russian) and no subtitles/original tracks/whatever. Nothing.
- While pirated copy is a copy of a Region1 release with Russian translation ADDED to the original sound. And with all the subtitles of a Reg1 release (i.e. at least English ones).
So which one, you think, I bought? Yep. More featured one.

The thing with "copyrighted" stuff, even free (or relatively cheap ones - those I (as a poor Russian student) can afford to buy) is that it IS limited, it limits my freedoms and does other ugly things to me. While pirating stuff I, at the worst case, support some mafiozi, who, gotta be honest, doesn't differ much from the bosses of Universal.

[Nikolas]

Voh: Cool

Generally I went to the tube station to pick up my wife and wanted to come back and clear things up completely:

1. I have pirated stuff my self. I'm no saint, and I cannot condemn something that I do. But I don't like to see pirates claiming that it's idealistic (follow next point). I do see that there could be people who think, and I value the opinion of many people (for example RickJ, who I don't knwo about piracy, but certainly is a thinker and has aided me in the past, and hope the futuer as well)
2. about piracy. If you claim that you don't like the price of anything, simply don't buy it. This would be the way to deal with high prices, to which I agree 100% with that! But why get it anyway? Here is were I object and claim it's easy. Don't buy it, but don't get it either. Otherwise you invalidate your point. There are literally millions of tracks from every genre for free in myspace, soundclick, etc, and most bands do offer in some form or another their hits or even whole albums (as muse are for example).
3. Same goes for software, etc. You want office? Why steal Microsoft when there is open office around? Want windows? Get linux. Want Cubase? Get reaper. etc... There is ALWAYS the free/cheaper alternative. And actually for samples that's where I am, there are 99$ orchestral packs from kirk hunter and garritan. I can no longer accept that samples are pricey. Sure VSL costs 12,000$, but does anyone in here need that?
4. Piracy is huge advertising and companies are indeed foolish to deal with piracy this way. I've been talking and talking to everyone that times have changed and a very few of you know that I'm planning on a book, and have very specific ideas on the promotion of the book (rick and greg know), which basically include free distribution. Additionally, as a professional, my clients are the people who pay me, thus the game developers. Not the audience. So my tracks are actually free and I get the money from the people who develop the games. Same with movies, animation, etc.
(<- this whole thing is not aimed at Voh, please )


FSi:
1. You have to be kidding me: Do you even know anything about copyright?
So, for you, I make something, I put all my efforts, everything onto it, my dreams etc, and you want to:
a. take it and use it as your own (due to lack of copyright, thus steal it and claim it is yours)
b. take it and use it without rewarding me for the huge ammount of time+money+knowedge+talent+ideas I put onto it
c. Make money out of it
?

This is what you mean?

2. How it doesn't support it? Can you explain a bit further? Information is free. Why should MY scores be free? (which they are, as I said earlier)
3. I never said "stealing" in any way, I didn't even use the word. Don't mention that to me, I don't agree to that either. What happens is that you (you in a general sense) is taking advantage from something I (again in the general sense) did

I will take a look at the link the minute I find a few more minutes.

But my POV seems tight and narrow?? I've been there, I've been to the other side, I've been everywhere, and as I mentioned I've downloaded stuff myself. Have you tried to live as a creator yourself? Or maybe your opinion is too tight and narrow?



Problem with piracy which rather bothers me, is that people who have put 0.1 effort are getting the money, while the real owners and effort people (bands + company + artists + whatever) get nothing. In short, if I take a cracked copy of a... game, let's say, and make money out of it, I find it simply disgraceful. There is nothing supported and NO idealistic idea behind that AT ALL. At least give it for free, although again I don't agree fully...

[Pumaman]

I can't really comment on this site since I've never used it, but one thing that does strike me as odd is the industry shutting down TV Series download sites without offering a legal way to buy them.

If I want to see the new series of 24 or Heroes for example, there is no option for me to buy the new episodes. Therefore, either I have to download them illegally or wait a year for them to come on TV in this country. It doesn't really make any sense to give people a telling off for getting shows from pirates when there's no way to get them legally.

[Darth Mandarb]

Nik - I certainly didn't mean to offend you.  It's just I see so much time and energy (and money) wasted on this issue.  One man's common sense is another's insult I guess.  I meant no insult to you.

I'm not saying that piracy should be legalized or that it's fair that people are doing it.  I don't care enough to debate the rights/wrongs of it.  All I'm saying is that no matter what they (the corporations fighting it) do, they simply will not win and/or stop piracy/trading/sharing/etc.

Whether it's morally right/wrong to pirate or "appropriate" is irrelevant.  It's a simple fact that it's happening, will continue to happen, and cannot be stopped.

Here's a thought ... instead of spending countless dollars trying to fight something you can't beat (thus having to drive the cost of the products up even higher to compensate for the money lost fighting it) why not maybe consider the reason [some] people are pirating your shit is 'cause you charge too damn much for it in the first place and they can get it cheaper/free elsewhere?

[Nikolas]

If I want to see the new series of 24 or Heroes for example, there is no option for me to buy the new episodes. Therefore, either I have to download them illegally or wait a year for them to come on TV in this country. It doesn't really make any sense to give people a telling off for getting shows from pirates when there's no way to get them legally.

Actually this is a very fair point... But I'm just wasting my time every Wed. watching heroes on BBC 3 (honestly, nothing intended at all).

You are very true to that point!

Darth: Yes it will continue to happen, and I do hope that people will wake up and find alternatives to those bloody royalties...

FSi: Still reading the site, there's a lot to read, but can't say I agree to begin with.

[DoorKnobHandle]

Well, YouTube actually HOSTS those illegal shows, they just have enough money as a company to stand above American law, so they do not get shut down, or am I missing something here?

[Nikolas]

As far as I know they delete lots of stuff due to copyright problems, and additionally the bands on their own put their own stuff up. What got deleted pretty fast, was recorded MTV/VH1 stuff, because the channels couldn't afford that... But the bands are quite tolerate to 55,000,000 hits... (I would imagine at least, as noone will comment really)

[DoorKnobHandle]

Well, I can find links on YouTube that are illegally online since months - and going by the legal ground they shut TV-Links down, this should be more, more than enough to shut YouTube down. Their anti-copyright-infringement actions are a joke and they know it, they want and need the illegal files on their servers, because that's what lures people to visit YouTube the most.