More Relationship Woes

[Quintaros]

It's a little embarrassing to post this sort of thread but I do appreciate the feedback I get from people here as it tends to lack the bias that can occur when discussing with friends in the real world.  So here goes:

My co-worker, Meredith, is a pretty judgemental person and believes that very few people she meets in this world are worthy of her respect or friendship.  Despite this attitude, the two of us actually hit it off immediately because of our similar senses of humour.  We became friends and she and her husband, Dave, have served as a hub for me to make other friends in a town where I didn't know many people outside of work.

My girlfriend, Anita, is also someone with a very similar sense of humour to my own.  I assumed that she and Meredith were going to hit it off great and that we'd all be friends.

The first time I introduced them was when I took Anita to a Halloween party at Meredith and Dave's.  We were about 2 hours late in arriving and Meredith was already well drunk.  She was loud and raunchy and did awkward things like pretending to get grabby with Anita's breasts and asking us if we were having anal sex.  I don't why but it's one of Meredith's running jokes to act like she's into other women's boobs and inquire about “doin' it in the butt”.  Anita was not amused but she dismissed this as drunk behaviour and she didn't let it spoil the rest of the party.  The next morning when we returned to M&D's house to retrieve my car, we went in briefly to ask about some of the music that had been playing the night before.  While there I mentioned rather casually to Meredith that she'd said and done a lot of awkward things the night before and she did not apologize.  The lack of apology bothered Anita much more than the night's antics as it implied Meredith did not care if she offended Anita and made her feel uncomfortable.  I more or less forgot about the incident in the following months.

Last Friday was my company's Christmas party and was the first time since Halloween Meredith and Anita saw each other.  Along with a 3rd couple, we all road together to the party.   Within minutes of picking us up, Meredith said something that offended Anita.  There's a little backstory required for Meredith's offending comment so bear with me. 

Two weeks earlier Anita and I had taken a little vacation together.  We did not check-in for our flight in advance so when we arrived at the airport we discovered we'd not be seated together but instead were one behind the other.  We were rather annoyed at this since we had booked our flights together months in advance.  We decided that we would try to guilt another passenger into trading seats with one of us so that we could be together.  We should have just politely asked but instead we thought it would be fun to see if a passenger would volunteer.  So during the flight we talked to each other over the back of my chair and at one point she said to me:  “Wanna make out?”  (this is a running gag unto itself as I frequently ask her this in public places and she always gets embarrassed).  Anyway despite the fact that we were obviously supposed to be together our neighbouring passengers made no offer to swap seats.  I thought this was a funny, interesting anecdote and I told Meredith about this when I returned to work the following week. 

So Meredith's offending remark in the car was “How was your trip?  I heard you guys played tonsil tennis on the plane and you weren't even in the same row.”

Is this really such a bad thing to have said?  I interpreted it as gentle teasing.  Anita interprets it as a malicious attack intended to make her uncomfortable.

When we arrive at the party and are hanging our coats, Anita told me how she felt about Meredith's comment and I dismissed her interpretation defending the comment as just a joke.  The rest of the party seemed to go okay.  Anita was having a lot of fun with Dave ganging up on me to make fun of my nerdy ways.  She shared a dessert with Meredith.  I thought everything was copasetic.  But then abruptly Anita wanted to leave the party. 

She went to the coat room and I told her I'd be right out after I finished my drink.  I probably took about 5 minutes to drink my drink and say my goodbyes and by the time I left the main room Anita was gone.  Her coat was no longer next to mine on the rack.  She wasn't in the ladies room.  She wasn't outside waiting for a cab.  I thought maybe she'd already caught a cab and returned to my place without me.  This was not good and was certainly a sure-fire sign that she was mad at me.  Some other friends at the party had seen her exit angrily and recommended I just return to the party for a little while and go home in half an hour or so after she's had time to cool off.  It seemed like reasonable advice and so I got myself another drink and decided to enjoy myself for the meantime.  This turned out to be a terrible idea as she hadn't in fact gone home but was out in the freezing cold trying to hail a cab for 15 minutes.  She came back inside to find me having fun again with a new drink in my hand and that only made her more angry.  So I abandoned my drink and we left for home.

We were up for hours fighting.  I learned that the reason Anita wanted to bolt from the party was because Meredith again said something offensive.  This time the offending remark was:  “I can see your side-boobs.”  Apparently this was said right in front of me but I didn't hear it and don't know how I would have responded if I had.  I don't know what a side-boob is but Anita interpreted to mean her dress looked bad on her and that her breasts were hanging out.  I really had no rational way to justify Meredith saying such a mean comment.  Anita's explanation was simple:  Meredith is a catty bitch with a low self-esteem who elevates herself by slamming other women.  In addition to her thinking Meredith was a wicked person, she felt betrayed by me for defending her comment in the car.

This is a very large issue.  It hasn't gotten better in the past 6 days.  Anita continues to believe that I value my friendship with Meredith over my relationship to her.  She thinks I'm either a stupid moron for not seeing how awful a person Meredith is or that I'm a liar who recognized Meredith's maliciousness but is refusing to accept it out of stubbornness.

My stance is that it's impossible for me to believe that my friend would deliberately be cruel toward my girlfriend.  I can accept that Meredith is an uncouth boor but I can't assign malice to her actions only ignorance.  I'm not trying to convince Anita she should give Meredith another chance.  All I want is to preserve my right to formulate my own opinion of someone.  I think it's unfair to treat my differing opinion as a betrayal.

I don't know what to do.  Am I risking my relationship to Anita over semantics?  Are people's intentions unimportant?  Am I a fool for not seeing Meredith's true nature?

Any advice is appreciated.  Thanks.

[Radiant]

Well...

I don't know this Meredith, of course, but those remarks she make strike me as pretty nasty. So I suppose it would be worth finding out whether (1) she was deliberately nasty, (2) she, for the lack of a better term, lacks the social skill to realize this was nasty, or (3) she made the remark in jest, like some people make mock-insults to their friends, and misjudged the apparent fact that she and Anita aren't friends.

Since in case (2) or (3) Meredith would probably be willing or happy to apologize once the confusion is cleared up, and since she refused to apologize earlier, it's quite possible that Anita assumes she was in fact being deliberately nasty.

$.2

[Quintaros]

Thanks...

I have brought it up with Meredith and she's apologized to me.  I believe it was sincere and that the situation did match scenario (3) as described.

I've told Anita of the apology and she does accept it as genuine.  Perhaps because it was second hand.

[Pumaman]

Yeah, it sounds to me like Meredith was just being herself but Anita didn't know her well enough to accept those kind of comments from her. It's funny how two people can say exactly the same thing to you, and one of them can be funny whilst the other is offensive, just depending on how well you know them.

Oh, and a sideboob is generally a view like this:
http://www.sideboob.org/pictures/isabeli_fontana_02.jpg

[Darth Mandarb]

Yeah, it sounds to me like Meredith was just being herself but Anita didn't know her well enough to accept those kind of comments from her. It's funny how two people can say exactly the same thing to you, and one of them can be funny whilst the other is offensive, just depending on how well you know them.

That is exactly what I was going to say.  It's all in the interpretation.

Oh and ... I love side-boob.

[ManicMatt]

I can't see these two people ever getting along with each other, it sounds like too much character clashing to me. Probably best not to have them meeting up if possible, perhaps.

And she took her coat and left and you carried on partying? That advice given to you to carry on partying and not go to her.. you were indeed a fool to take it. I'm glad you see the error of your ways.  Don't do that again! 

If those two keep meeting and Meredith keeps up the cheeky monkey talk, you must tell her not to straight away!

These are my opinions and you're free to flush them down the toilet for all I care. 

[Quintaros]

Yeah, it sounds to me like Meredith was just being herself but Anita didn't know her well enough to accept those kind of comments from her. It's funny how two people can say exactly the same thing to you, and one of them can be funny whilst the other is offensive, just depending on how well you know them.

Oh, and a sideboob is generally a view like this:
http://www.sideboob.org/pictures/isabeli_fontana_02.jpg

I had no idea sideboob was a widely used term.  Based on that website, I wouldn't even say it was a negative word but maybe just a juvenile one.  It seems to me like it was just a really juvenile way for Meredith to compliment her on looking sexy in her dress.

I can't see these two people ever getting along with each other, it sounds like too much character clashing to me. Probably best not to have them meeting up if possible, perhaps.

If those two keep meeting and Meredith keeps up the cheeky monkey talk, you must tell her not to straight away!

Oh I agree about it being best to keep them apart.   I think that if Meredith had been more down to earth and genuine with Anita during their first encounters she could have eased into the cheeky monkey talk and Anita might have enjoyed or at least tolerated it.  As it is I'd say the damage is done.

I don't feel a need for Anita to see Meredith as I do.  I just want her to accept my opinion without thinking that it's a betrayal.  If she can't accept then I'm left with two options: (1) embrace her opinion and drop my friend or (2) stick to my principles and face a break-up.

[ManicMatt]

There must be an option (3), you shouldn't have to choose between them both.

[The Ivy]

It could be that Anita is a little jealous of Meredith. You work with her in an environment that Anita is excluded from, and you've mentioned that you like Meredith's sense of humour. It's very cool that you get along with your coworkers, but when it's someone of the opposite sex it might start ringing some alarm bells with your significant other.

That was my first thought when I heard how Anita was reacting. If she isn't normally this sensitive about things, it's probably because she already feels insecure when you're spending time with Meredith.

/female perspective

[Quintaros]

I've considered the possibility that it was a jealousy issue but I don't buy it.

We're very open with each other in discussing these things so it would be extremely out of character for her to veil these kinds of feelings.

I suppose you could make the arguement that she's confused about her own feelings and doesn't realize that they could stem from jealousy but I dismiss this also.  She's too intelligent and self aware to not know how/why she feels.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Meredith seems very much like one of those 'take me as I am or fuck you' kind of people, which tends to rub a lot of people the wrong way -- including, it seems -- your girlfriend.  I wouldn't say it's a horrible way to be, but it is an incredibly self-centered, self-involved way to be, and it definitely turns some people off.  Her illicit sexual comments certainly bother your girlfriend, and I can't really fault her for that; some people don't go in for filthy humor, particularly not with relative strangers!  Clearly you are a person that does, however, and that's why you and Meredith get on well. 

I think that in this situation, the very best thing you can do is reassure your girlfriend that she has every right to feel upset over Meredith's behavior, because from her perspective, it's inappropriate.  You could also affirm that, because you know Meredith and her attitude, it didn't seem offensive to you.  Perceptions are pretty key in relationships, and just because you don't perceive a problem doesn't mean there isn't one.  I would also give Meredith some advice on choosing her words with strangers, but that's just me, because if a girl like her were to come up to me as a stranger and start saying things like 'wow, what a cock-bulge (or what a total absence of cock-bulge)!' and things of that nature I would be very reluctant indeed to enter into any kind of meaningful dialog with her.

I have a pretty good idea about Meredith because she sounds a lot like one of my brothers, who is very much a guttural, 'say whatever the hell I want' type of guy, to the point of being downright disgusting when he wants to be.  People like that are difficult to be around unless you know them, and even then it's not always easy!

[LGM]

I think that perhaps, regardless of how Anita is acting, you might just have to take one for the team. That doesn't mean you have to stop being around Meredith... But sometimes in a relationship you gotta back up your better half whether you agree or not, just because your alliance is with them. Perhaps she is only jealous now, as Ivy said, because she sees that you are defending Meredith over her own feelings.

I know, to us guys, it seems kind of silly. But these kinds of things are very important to some women and sometimes there's nothing you can do but agree with them and call it a day. Even if you think the so called woman is intelligent or rational, everyone's still very much capable of being completely irrational and stupid.

That's not to say Anita is being stupid or irrational. Clearly she does not click with Meredith, for one reason or another, and basically she is taking it as a personal offense that you do not sympathize with her when she is offended, and furthermore you go to defend Meredith. I'd say, you both are right here, but when it comes to a relationship-breaker... Just suck it up and move on. This argument is not worth losing... And even if you win, I doubt very much Anita is the kind of girl that will just forget it and move along. Expect this argument to come up, oh, about every r month if you continue due course here.

[Tuomas]

I've been to similar situations myself. Basically when friendship clashes with a relationship. First of all, me and my brother beat each other up pretty much everytime we meet. And kind of fight and tell how much we suck and such that to others might seem like fighting. So I was perhaps too eager in accepting his girlfriend into our family that I got too aggressive. I didn't punch her, she's a girl for christs sake, but I madea comment, which apparently offeded her. I can't remember it anymore, it's been several years, but I appologised and that's that.

A friend of mine is one of those ProgZ mentioned. I find it surprising how exactly the descriptions fit him. Very self centered and always making remarks of other people, in the sense of calling all women whores, yes, he does that. We're kind of used to it, but now that he called my girlfriend a whore when I was present, I was really offended. He mentioned how all the whores were coming to meet us one saturday, that meant her and her friends. The girls didn't mind that much, but I got really mad at him, and atually we had a huge fight over it, unfortunately I was too drunk to remember anything of it, but I've heard quite a bit. I've personally found, that if you offend someone unintentionally, whether you think it really isoffending or not, the damage is indeed done, and an appology is in its place. And I find it hard to be the same around people who refuse to appologise. Meredith here seems the kind that I would not like to hang around. If you do, but Anita doesn't, there's no simple solution, unless you get them two accustomed to each other. In the meantime, I myself would have little symphaty for M considering the meaning A has already in your life together.

[Meowster]

I don't like the sound of Meredith. I know women who fit the description you've given of her... women who try to act laddy and say unnessecarily outrageous things to try and be funny through shocking people. I know that it really really irritates me greatly, though I don't get offended... I just avoid that person...

There's something though that's worth mentioning... with women a lot of the time there are subtle things that they do to purposely annoy each other, while glossing it over with "pretending to be nice". Men usually never pick up on this, but women do. I've been in this situation plenty of times. In school and college, if two girls hated eached other they'd very often be "best friends", and it seemed the only reason for this was so that they could pick up little secrets about each other for bitching about later! And also they could make remarks to each other that were "intended to be nice" but in fact were masked insults... such as "oh your hair is so messy today, you're always so messy Jane! I love that about you, that you don't care how you look!"

This happened to me once before with a girl who had a crush on my boyfriend. She was very close with him, being a friend, and then would say things that I knew were said purposely to annoy me... while all the time acting like she was one of my best friends. My boyfriend didn't believe that she was saying those things to be malicious... she would say things like "don't you think a little bit of makeup could go a long way on you?" or talk about lending me her clothes and then say "actually they probably wouldn't fit you, you're a few clothes sizes bigger than me aren't you?"

So I hated this girl very much, but my boyfriend thought that she was "cute"! He thought that this behaviour was just her being silly and airheaded and he found that endearing!

Could the situation between Meredith and Anita be similar?

(Incidentally, I have planned for this Christmas when my boyfriend's ex-girlfriend inevitably invites herself around. I'm going to answer the door with our two new cats in my arms, pretend not to recognise her for a moment, and then say, "oh, lee-anne!" (which isn't her name), and when she corrects me I'll apologise with an irritating little laugh, then invite her in to our newly redecorated, recarpetted house. As she's coming through the hallway I'll yell out to my boyfriend to tell him that she's here... but I'll mispronounce her name slightly wrong, even though she's just told me what it is. Then I'll make her comfortable on my new sofa and offer her a cup of tea.

While I make the tea, I'll feed the cats a little too so that they hang around me and she doesn't have a chance to stroke them. I'll talk about how the cats are a good judge of character and my boyfriend and I have learned never to trust anybody that the cats don't trust. Then when we're in the living room again...   while she's stroking the cats, I'll turn on the anti-cat device I bought last week, that emits a sound inaudible to humans but that makes cats freak out. Nobody will know I've done this, but the cats will appear to hate her. I'll do it every time she approaches them.

Subtle yet highly evil... )

[SSH]

In short: women are complicated.

I'd recommend becoming gay.

[EldKatt]

(Incidentally, I have planned for this Christmas when my boyfriend's ex-girlfriend inevitably invites herself around. I'm going to answer the door with our two new cats in my arms, pretend not to recognise her for a moment, and then say, "oh, lee-anne!" (which isn't her name), and when she corrects me I'll apologise with an irritating little laugh, then invite her in to our newly redecorated, recarpetted house. As she's coming through the hallway I'll yell out to my boyfriend to tell him that she's here... but I'll mispronounce her name slightly wrong, even though she's just told me what it is. Then I'll make her comfortable on my new sofa and offer her a cup of tea.

While I make the tea, I'll feed the cats a little too so that they hang around me and she doesn't have a chance to stroke them. I'll talk about how the cats are a good judge of character and my boyfriend and I have learned never to trust anybody that the cats don't trust. Then when we're in the living room again...   while she's stroking the cats, I'll turn on the anti-cat device I bought last week, that emits a sound inaudible to humans but that makes cats freak out. Nobody will know I've done this, but the cats will appear to hate her. I'll do it every time she approaches them.

Subtle yet highly evil... )

Wait. Can you repeat the part where you explain how this would benefit anyone?

[Cino]

Subtle yet highly evil... )

No offense, but you sound very insecure and even a bit psychopathic? That's no way to keep a boyfriend and quite likely it's more like a ticket out of the relationship. I hope it was some sort of a joke (the joke's on me then ), but if not, I suggest you rethink the whole plan.

[Nacho]

I'd recommend becoming gay.

Makes me think someone already did...

Sorry ^_^ Couldn' t resist, Guybrush telling that came to my mind! ^_^

[Meowster]

Yes of course I was joking, I was trying to make fun of the way that some girls behave sometimes...

[Cino]

In that case, I'm sorry for being a dumbass