One of the coolest things I have ever seen ...

[Disco]

Isn't Barack Obama, providing he's elected President, planning to divert funding from NASA to pay for his proposed education plans?

This could be the last we see of Mars for a while.

It's comments like this that, whether there is any truth to them or not, make me feel grateful that the US is not the only country doing space missions or launches. Sure it is one of only three currently doing human space flights and has a substantially larger budget than the next, but I'm kind of bothered with the unilateral perception.

While in Europe last winter I was confounded during conversations about space exploration where I heard it said that "[the United States] made it to the moon." more than once, and it was a little disturbing to hear it in national terms. Prior to that I've always heard it in the collective i.e.- mankind landed on the moon, maybe only as a side-effect of living in that country am I not used to hearing that particular milestone referred to as a national thing. It is sad really.

Just because that mission originated from and was (largely) paid for by the US, does not make it a wholly US achievement. The science, technology, etc. came from all over and was conducted by people of many different backgrounds. Why the astronauts felt it necessary to plant nothing other than a national flag up there is beyond me. 

[evenwolf]

Why the astronauts felt it necessary to plant nothing other than a national flag up there is beyond me. 

That's not true.   We also left our garbage.


Flags and dedication plaques from each moon mission
video camera's at the launch sites
sensitometers
the launch legs for the lunar module
Geologic tools
The Laser Reflecting mirrors
Three golfballs
The Rovers
A gold plated extreme ultraviolet telescope
Apollo backpacks


In essence, these were the greatest acts of littering EVER accomplished.  Gooooooo Team!

[Lionmonkey]

People! Stop talking and arguing about things. It's not productive. There's so much better stuff, you could be doing right now. You say stuff about how should be good works done. But have you actually done something good lately?

Look around you. Tell something nice to your friend/child/sex partner.
Go outside. Give some money to a bum.
Keep walking. When you see someone, who needs help, instead of pretending not to notice that, help him/her.

What are you waiting for? Go!

-----------------------------------------------------
P.L.P.S. mode off.

[evenwolf]

Had to check your age for that one.    Keep the idealism to a minimum please.


One day you'll learn that debate is healthy, like eating your vegetables. 

For your information I helped with a fund raiser last night.  This guy lets all the neighborhood kids use his gym and teaches them how to box but he forgets to ever ask for money.   So he couldn't afford rent... and would probably have to shut the gym down.   We raised some good money last night for him.  He's an awesome dude.

[evenwolf]

ICE ON MARS?



The Phoenix Lander has already detected something that might be ice, 2 - 6 inches beneath the top layer of soil. 

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080531.html

This substance, provided it is ice, is a big fucking deal.  NASA estimates that if there is ice on Mars, they will gladly scoop up enough to make snowcones for all the children of Africa. 

[Lionmonkey]

Had to check your age for that one.    Keep the idealism to a minimum please.

Oh, sorry. I guess it works on girls only.

[Ryan Timothy B]

NASA estimates that if there is ice on Mars, it will gladly scoop up enough to make snowcones for all the children of Africa.

Everyone likes snow cones.



Perhaps it's not ice though.  What if the soil on mars has a very low melting point and it turned into a glassy blob?  (but I doubt that completely. it is also 5:40am and I for some reason I haven't slept yet, so my mind has entered 'dream state'. g'night)

[evenwolf]

It's possible it's not ice.    Either way, we've learned something about the Mars polar region.   It is commonly thought that Mars is a dead planet.    But there are those who think otherwise:

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/05/the-ice-ages-of.html

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2003/dec/HQ_03415_ice_age.html



"After examining stunning high-resolution images taken last year by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, researchers have documented for the first time that ice packs at least 1 kilometer (0.6 miles) thick and perhaps 2.5 kilometers (1.6 miles) thick existed along Mars' mid-latitude belt as recently as 100 million years ago. In addition, the team believes other images tell them that glaciers flowed in localized areas in the last 10 to 100 million years - a blink of the eye in Mars's geological timeline.   This evidence of recent activity means the Martian climate may change again and could bolster speculation about whether the Red Planet can, or did, support life."

Any evidence of glacier movement within the last millions and millions of years would be stunning! Remember that Mars is estimated to be 4.5 Billion years old.  Ice ages on Mars!   Perhaps Mars still has much life in it!      We shouldn't take anything for granted so..... keep on digging, little Phoenix buddy!

Maybe if the rover finds Jesus people will at least shrug?

[Quintaros]

My attempt at an analogy:

Getting excited about ice on Mars is like getting excited about receiving an envelope in the mail that reads:  "You may have already won!"

This may be another piece of a puzzle supporting that there was once life on Mars but I won't become excited until the puzzle is complete and we have some fossils or something.

And I suspect that there are others even more hard won over than me.

[evenwolf]

Fossils?  Still the "I only care if there's an alien" mindset.   Man you guys we're not going to find a big silver UFO up there.    And don't expect to find a dinosaur on Mars.   What we want are ingredients.   Certain elements that might have been blown away by a solar blast billions of years ago.


Realize that science fiction by and large was created to inspire humans to reach out.  What its done is made us spoiled brats.    "Been there, done that.   Show me an alien with 14 tentacles and I'll be impressed."   The idea of a humanoid is sort of ridiculous.   Think of skeletal structures during evolution.  Think of there being skeletons at all.  Think of the atmosphere's effect.  Think of gravity's effect.  Think of the chances of an alien looking remotely like anything we've ever seen.   Aliens might as well be invisible clouds of dust.   ( You realize we only have fossils dating back to when organisms became hard enough to leave fossils.   And that's only when the organism was trapped under a certain geological feature, ie: mudslides, volcano eruption, etc.)

Ice = water.

Water = one of the fundamental elements of human life   

Ice = Hydrogen and Oxygen that we could harvest

Not fucking ice skating with E.T. and the wookies.

And I'm not trying to win anybody over at this point.   Clearly Science Fiction is worth our time compared to Science Fact.  Again you say, "been there done that.  I'll wait around until I see a wookie."    If George Lucas thought like you guys there never would have been "Star Wars".  Let's get creative.

Hundreds of civilizations used to worship the moon.   As soon as astronauts were hitting golf balls while up there, we've all been saying, "Yawn, its just a big rock floating up there not doing anything.   Yawn yawn yawn. Whens Halo 3 come out?"

Albert Enstein never lived to see this day.   The things he would be fascinated by and the amount of guesses he made regarding stuff like this.    It all begins with hypothesis.   Here you are with ACCESS to all the information and you're farting around with your X Box.

When I was a kid I was fascinated by space travel and Santa Claus.  Only it turns out space travel is real.

[Blackthorne]

If we don't explore space and our solar system, we're doing a great dis-service to future generations.  Honestly.

So, we might be making small strides now - but I suppose one has to learn to crawl before they run a marathon.  The work done now is paving the way for things bigger than our lifespans.

Bt

[Ryan Timothy B]

This is how I look at it.  I'm not a scientist.  I don't read many books on space, planets, theories and the what-not.

The only way I could see Mars once being able to support life is if the Sun was once hotter than it is now.  Which to me makes complete sense, it's a big fire that has been dying down for years (or at least it should be).  It would make Earth a very warm and most likely an unlivable planet.  Which to me also makes sense in the fact that we have a core that is molten lava.  If a big ball of molten glass was to float around the sun, (if the sun was cooling down) one can only imagine the outer layers will harden and cool turning into the 'crust' area of the molten ball.  And of course after a while, the center would harden and cool.

It's either that the sun was hotter, or the planets were closer.  I remember hearing once that the planets (and moons) are all spreading further and further away from each other and the sun.

Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way, maybe our next livable planet will be Venus or Mercury (if we ever live that long).  I doubt it though.

And there's 9 planets in the Solar System.

Also evenwolf, I thought they said they discovered there are 11 planets now?

[evenwolf]

You're right about the number of planets.  We have 8 planets and 3 dwarf planets by the new definition.  I still think back to grade school when they stamped the number 9 into my head.

the fact that we have a core that is molten lava. 

That's movie science.   We do not have a Core of molten magma.    You're thinking of volcanic activity in the Earth's Mantle.    Because of gravity, there are NO caverns in the Earth's core.  NONE.  You couldn't get a pinky in there.    Imagine the Earth's oceans sitting on top of you.... and then realize that the oceans are only a tiny film on the surface of the planet. The Earth's core is very very very high pressure. Very dense.    No holes, no caves, none of that hollywood ballyhoo.   Just a huge solid mass of iron and nickel. 

Here's an excerpt of a great explanation:

"Beneath the crust is a layer of rock called the mantle. Even deeper is the core which scientists believe is made of solid iron and nickel.

Imagine wearing a concrete bodysuit all of the time. After a while, you'd feel extremely hot because of the tremendous pressure you'd feel on your body. If you think about it, the mantle wears a huge, heavy bodysuit that is about seventy kilometers thick. It's not too hard to believe, then, that there is extreme pressure and heat in the mantle. Most of the mantle, over 99%, stays solid, but the high temperature and the push and pull forces cause some of the mantle to melt. This molten rock is known as magma.

If you were wearing that concrete bodysuit, you'd probably fight to break free from it. You'd probably wiggle your fingers and stretch your toes to try and poke some small holes. The outer layer of the earth has some weak spots and cracks in it. When the magma in the mantle pushes finds those weak spots, it pokes through, forming a volcano."





The Red in the 2nd image is completely solid.  There's simply too much density and force.   No magma except in the top most layers of the Mantle.

As far as what you imagine to be the case with the Earth's distance from the Sun, you're really only factoring proximity from the Sun as a source of heat.    What about the size of a planet compared to its core?   Imagine that Jupiter is wearing twenty coats while Mercury is wearing just a t-shirt.    And you can see there are many more factors than distance to the Sun.   

I've explained a few times, but I will again.  Some planets have NO possibility for life simply because they're missing certain elements.   4.5 billion years ago when the Solar System formed,  a solar blast blew matter away from the planets near the Sun.  The closest were the smallest planets, and they lost most of their gases.     The planets farther away didn't lose as much matter (keeping most of their rare gases).   In a way, this was actually fortunate for the closer planets since it seemed to be a better mix of ingredients.   The combination of these elements and temperature probably lead to life.  And so far it seems that having more gases does not make chances of life more likely.  I guess one day we'll see.

You're also not factoring in that the planets haven't always been where & what they are.  Some moons were formed by meteors, or possibly *other* planets SMACKING into the side of the bigger planet.   The smaller body was either captured into the lager body's orbit, or exploded a chunk of the larger body into space... and that chunk became a moon.   So yes the Sun could have been hotter, but Mars could have been a part of Earth that broke off and fell into its own orbit.   ( I'm not proposing this.  Simply theoretical, right? )

Over the course of 4.5 billion years a lot could happen.   I enjoy the theory you put forth, and I think its that kind of creative thinking and curiosity that lead humans to the reaches of space.    There are still an infinite number of unanswered questions out there, and the scientific process hasn't been around that long.   But for the time it has, its kicked major pagan ass.

[Traveler]

I know some of you care about this kind of thing ... but I came across this earlier and was completely blown away.

This is one of the most amazing photos I've ever laid eyes on.

That's the Phoenix lander descending to Mars.  That's a photo of something from earth descending on another planet.  Simply incredible.

Does anybody else find this as amazing as I do?

Yes, I agree, it's so fundamentally way cool, it really cannot be put into words.

[Nacho]

The only way I could see Mars once being able to support life is if the Sun was once hotter than it is now.

As far as I know, Mars is unsuitable for life now for the escape of the thin athmosphera it had before, than has more to see with its small gravity than with the influence of the sun.

[Darth Mandarb]

Another GREAT shot ... this time much higher resolution!

Just incredible ...

[evenwolf]

Darth:   The non-eroded rim of that crater is so super sexy to me.  It leaves me fairly spellbound.

I found some more:

View of the Phoenix Lander from the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter:


"Snowqueen" possible ice feature:


These movies were pieced together from B&W images & magnified x 8:

Phoenix's Panorama view of Mars

Typical Panorama of Mars

[Darth Mandarb]

The non-eroded rim of that crater is so super sexy to me.  It leaves me fairly spellbound.

Good to know there's others out there as mind-blown by this as I am ... there's just something about the thought of that crater sittin' on Mars for longer than the span of human-kind on Earth ... just sitting there undisturbed ... I don't know.  I find that utterly fascinating.  I read  that the diameter of that crater is over 10 km across!  Makes meteor crater in Arizona look like a pimple!

Beyond cool.

[Ryan Timothy B]

I guess I used the wrong wording for 'core'.  I realize the core of the earth is incredibly dense beyond anything we can comprehend.  I think that horrible movie The Core has desensitized my interpretation of the word 'core'. 



Also!  This guy at my work was arguing with me that he believes every Element in the known universe is already on our Periodic Table of Elements.  I  told him he was dead wrong.  Anything on our table of elements is anything that our little plastic shovels can collect in this little sand box surrounding the Earth.  We haven't even scratched the surface of the Elements on our own planet, let alone the rest of the universe.  (this of course isn't a proven theory, it's my theory.  I have no idea what kind of elements are left on our planet to discover.).
When was the last addition to the table anyway?

[evenwolf]

No idea.   Chemistry and I are not the best of friends.   In fact the sciences in general cause me to become rather dyslexic.


But as far as elements go, maybe your friend argues that there are simply no new ways to combine atoms.   As in:  All the electron arrangements are taken.     If that's his logic I could understand but seeing as how better and better microscopes have revealed deeper and deeper secrets to the universe....

I can't help but agree with you.   I personally doubt new elements will be found on Mars or the planets closer to the Sun.   Most likely Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and other planets with the "rare gases" would likely have any components that Earth is missing.   Very very very light elements, for example.    Because of the afore mentioned solar blast that created our solar system.  But surely outside the Solar System and the range of our telescopes we would be naive to assume we've seen it all.   If not the semantic term for "elements" there is surely something out there that makes up some tangible "thing".... 

Flavors of Quarks and Leptons are good examples.   Surely there are "concepts" that have simply missed the Solar System.    There will be components, perhaps outside our 5 senses.   

As for undiscovered elements I'll let someone more familiar with them take the microphone.