Skepticism

[Nacho]

Part 1: I said love is rational? Where? I mentioned three examples of why love does not annoy me, and many others, as Religion.

How does affect that Religion receives taxes to the personal belief of someone? In nothing. But it affects to me, who has to pay that taxes.

How does affect to a believer that religion is teached at schools? Of course it does not affect to believers. They must be extremelly happy, actually. But it might affect to my kids, who will have to go to school and learn, by an adult, a person who has been recognised by the state as a competent to take care of the education of the youngest, that languajes were created because God got annoyed with us because we were making a really big tower and that they have an undeletable sin with them forever because some idiot ate some kind of fruit 6,000 years ago.

Part 2: Christian: One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Okay, I am going to imagine again, based on your posts:

Jehova' s witnesses, mormons, amish do not professe belief in Christ and do not follow the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

Imagining is cool...

[Ozzie]

Christian: One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Okay, I am going to imagine again, based on your posts:

Jehova' s witnesses, mormons, amish do not professe belief in Christ and do not follow the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

Imagining is cool...

Well, here we may have a problem with semantics. Like I said, you can't throw catholics, evangelics, mormons or Jehova's witnesses in one pot (not only because this might amount to cannibalism ). They all may be some kind of christian, but not the same.

I said love is rational? Where? I mentioned three examples of why love does not annoy me, and many others, as Religion.

You may not have said that, but how is one irrational behaviour better than another?

And all the things that seem to annoy you about religion don't seem to have anything to do with the personal belief, but instead with the intertwinement  of state and church. I think this discussion could settle if you managed to distinguish between these two points.

[Nacho]

Which semantics? I asked if Jehova' s witnesses are Christians. You said no.

"Christian: One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus"

Therefore, Jehova' s witnesses (according to you) do not professe belief in Jesus as Christ or follow the religion based on the life and teaching of Jesus, and they don' t live according to the teaching of Jesus.

Where is the semantic problem?

[Ozzie]

Which semantics? I asked if Jehova' s witnesses are Christians. You said no.

"Christian: One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus"

Therefore, Jehova' s witnesses (according to you) do not professe belief in Jesus as Christ or follow the religion based on the life and teaching of Jesus, and they don' t live according to the teaching of Jesus.

Where is the semantic problem?

Well yeah, I said that they aren't the same, since they deviate from the catholic and evangelical church for example. They are some kind of christians, though. You can't just generalize.

[Nacho]

Are they Christians or not?

[Ozzie]

Are they Christians or not?

Like I said, "They are some kind of christians, though."

If this is too cryptic for you, then I give you a yes.

[Nacho]

Thanks.

[miguel]

Nacho, surely you agree that God and the Church are different things, don't you?
You do understand that the Bible was based on only 3 or 4 gospels that  told the beautiful story in similar ways. The same story that the world knows and always have.
Why don't you read Judas Gospel? It's amazing, it will show you things that may move you closer to something you are refusing to believe.
Yes, we are in 2008, the world didn't end and thank God for that. Because there IS a God my dear Nacho. And maybe God is just a collective, human thought that all men share since the beginning. Maybe God is that stuff scientists search endessly that keeps everything together.
And do you want a better proof than you talking about something you don't believe?
The fact that some people abuse of others faith asking for money has more to do with ignorance than anything else. Take the members of this forum, I do not believe that one did fall for that kind of stuff, I'm sorry.

[Ozzie]

I wouldn't want to go as far as to convert Nacho to Christianity now.
I just hope that he will realize that religion or the belief in god can have value for some people.

[LimpingFish]

I just hope that he will realize that religion or the belief in god can have value for some people.

So can the opposite. The belief that Man is his own master and is solely responsible for his place in the cosmos.

[Ozzie]

I'm not sure if I ever said differently...
Personally, I'm not religious at all, so I'm not arguing for myself here.

[LimpingFish]

Oh, neither was I. Agnosticism allows me to please (or equally displease) both houses.

EDIT: In so much as I don't claim either the theists or the atheists to be "wrong".

[Anteater]

Interesting point about Jehova's Witnesses and blood transfusions, Nacho. I think the important thing to remember is that their reasoning for this belief is an unusual interpretation of Scripture, specifically Acts 15:18-29. Most Christians have no problems with blood transfusions. In fact, I gave blood less then a week ago.

[Mantra of Doom]

It is here that I would like to interject a little about religion being taught in schools because I have firsthand experience in this:

In America, at least, free public schools do not teach religion. Private schools and church operated schools usually charge a tuition and teach religious ideals of the church the school is affiliated with. So, at least here, if you want your children to be taught religion in a normal school, you have to pay for it.

I attended a (very small) Catholic school from age five to age twelve. It was not a good experience for me... and no... it wasn't because of the religion. I respect people with more faith than me. The school I attended was so small, there were only 7 girls and 5 boys per grade. So if one clique of girls hates you... well... they all seem to hate you. The reason that I will never send my future kids to any sort of private school is that teachers of private schools do not have to be as certified as teachers in public schools.

But anyway... that's probably another thread, another debate, and altogether as frustrating as a train wreck.

[Nacho]

Miguel... what makes you think I haven' t read it?

I did.

And I don' t believe in God still... I' ve read Jurassic Park as well, that touched me 20 times more than any gospel, and I don' t believe that we can bring dinsaurs back to life, either.

[Matti]

Wow. This thread explodes..


I haven't read every single post, but here are some thoughts:


I think the latest conversations with Nacho have become very stupid and are going nowhere. Most topics were basically about what the evidences for god or certain biblestories are and who gets into heaven and the "equality" of believers and non-believers as well as who is called christian and who are just members of a sect that is related to original christianity in a way. This is all not really worth a discussion in my eyes.


I'm not really surprised that people believe in something (supernatural). But I can't help but notice: it's a strange thing that all the people are believing in one and the same god. Why do all christians call upon Jesus as well as GOD, the one, the same for everyone. Why do you believe in the same thing some other person is believing? Where is the connection? Is it because of the bible? Because of the pope? If you're going to believe something it can't be the same as a billion people have too, doesn't it? Isn't belief and religion something very personal and therefore different everytime? Why follow a certain religion, a certain church, especially when blood and lies define it's history?


Belief in God really is just belief in "something", it' basically just a way to live life, but everything else than a neccessary one. And I also think it's a kind of escapism. It helps to explain all the cruelties and the overall situation mankind has to face. I do have a real problem with people who are living in respect and care to others, just because their religion told them that god wants him to do that and he has to live that way. Shouldn't all the positive parts of christianity (or other religions) be something natural?


As I said before, I really don't have a genuine problem with religion in general. But what KhrisMUC said: Those beliefs came up when thunderstorms, stars and the moon couldn't be explained in a rational way. That is obsolete. I know that many christians see god or belief as an idea or a guideline through life, and I can understand that this can be helpful, but there's no need for churches, no need for a label like "christian", no need for mythical transfigurations, no need to pray.

Regarding those people who genuinely believe in a supernatural entity that created men and the universe I can quote KhrisMUC:

I personally don't distinguish between the belief in God, Jesus, Santa Claus, unicorns or fairies. There's simply no reason to distinguish between it other than the fact that religious people might feel insulted.
[...]A few decades/centuries from now, it's probably perfectly acceptable to laugh at any irrational beliefs, why not start early?

I personally would like to see a society freed of religion. But, again, I don't have a problem with those who deal with religion in a proper and mature manner.

[space boy]

And do you want a better proof than you talking about something you don't believe?

So if I say I believe in george, my invisible friend, and I have a bunch of people arguing against that, does that mean that invisible george exists?
Or you could turn that argument and say that we don't ever debate obvious stuff like gravity, so if god were so obvious why would we need to debate his existence?
It's fair enough if the gospels or personal experience prove god for you. But counting the fact that there is a debate about god as proof for god is really silly. A debate only proves that there is doubt about something, not that one of both sides in the debate is correct.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Nacho, I don't think anyone here has ever argued that you personally, in any way, shape or form, are not entitled to be atheist.  Personally, I don't even consider a person's religious stance at all when I meet or talk to them because their life is their own.  One of the oft-forgotten but greatly important parts of the bible is that (for believers) God imbued man with free will to make his own way in the world, and it's really as simple as that. 

Therefore, it's not in question about whether or not you have a right to disbelieve, and based on your frequent arguments with people you seem to be trying to force believers into thinking they are ignorant for doing so, which I am telling you is a wrong and flawed way of approaching the issue.  You can personally find belief in a deity a waste of time, and that's absolutely your right; it's not your right to tell people they are misled or stupid for doing so or to carry on like a child, looking for any and every opportunity to stab in how much you loathe religion, which in my opinion is exactly how you have been behaving with regards to this issue.

Eric's an excellent example of someone with whom I could discuss religion, whereas it feels like a colossal (forgive the pun) waste of time to enter into any such discussion with you.  Why?  The difference between you and Eric is that he can say 'I don't personally believe' and his statement ends there; with you it's 'I don't personally believe because it's stupid/ignorant/assinine to do so'. 

Does any of this seem clear to you?

[Nacho]

Phew... I was quite decided not to contribute more to this thread... Anyway, let' s go:

If you want me to repeat that I do not consider consider believers idiots I will do it again... But it would be like the 5th time, it' s tiring.

I go on: Believing in God is not like loving. I am not against any kid of irrational behaviour, like love, or sacrificing your life for saving your friend' s life. What annoys me is that believing in God is:

a) Irrational.
b) And "comes" from a supernatural source.

Every believer I talked to (Or every except very few) tell me that the source of its faith is God.

No religious I' ve talked to told me: "I am religious because, even thinking that all the supernatural stuff is not true, the teachings I took from Bible work for me, and I like it".

Is something similar I could say from love. I don't know from where loves come, and I don' t really mind. I am happy with my girlfriend, and I want to go on that way. I don't have problems in saying that... Why believers do have? Are them so insecure of their beliefs that they need to put there a supernatural being?

But no. They tell me that the source is God. And since I don' t believe in God, the are telling me "Well, I am not going to tell it aloud, but, mate... You are wrong... God exists and I feel sorry for you for not believing it".

Also, there is the superiority complex. When I tell them if I could be able to have the same morale values as them without being religious, I allways feel that their thinking is "Well, you could probably get closer, but my morale, as comes from God, will allways be better".

So, they are also telling me that their morale is better than mine. It' s quite annoying, to be honest.

The only thing I want, from a believer is to recognise that they are not sure that God really exists, but it works for them. I would stop posting in this thread as soon as a believer recognises it.

And now I challenge you to read my posts again and see if the spirit on those posts is really forcing people to stop believing, or that I treated believers as ignorants.

[BOYD1981]

man why hasn't this stupid thread been locked yet?
it's the same old pish that comes up everytime somebody mentions religion and it's going nowhere.
an adventure games forum isn't the place for this type of discussion. now there's nothing wrong with a good debate this is pure arguing with eachother.
stop feeding the troll.