Skepticism

[Nacho]

"fiend"?

Anyway:

http://www.gaychristian.net/
I guess here are the answers..

[SSH]

[miguel]

Hi again, I thought this was over by now, but it appears that the issue is important to most of us.
I see, with joy, that the tone of the debate has leveled up in dignity.
Even Natcho came to the conclusion that christian religion is open-minded and its best points in behalf are the solid morality and respect for others.
SSH has never seen such a fundamentalist priest that most of you atack, neither have I and a priest like that would not pass any idea when I was 8 years-old (1984) and specialy not now to any modern kid.
You, see, some friends of mine went on to be priests (actually only one good friend) and I still see the same person, dedicated to something he believes. And, guess what? He loves music, cinema, and every other aspects in life just like me. It's not that he's like the monk in Two Kingdoms!
SSH's BD will tell you what bad christian upbringing is and I've allready wrote the same notion some pages ago and I believe it is something clear to all of you.
It's just that to criticise religion is way easier thant to deffend its qualities.

[Khris]

It's just that to criticise religion is way easier thant to deffend its qualities.

Now THAT's definitely something we can agree upon

[miguel]

Hehehe...you got me there!
If God was like Marlon Brando and Jesus like James Dean, you would not be laughing now!

[MrColossal]

Hehehe...you got me there!
If God was like Marlon Brando and Jesus like James Dean, you would not be laughing now!

But they are both dead...

OH MY! What a development! God is dead!

[Stupot]

It's just that to criticise religion is way easier thant to deffend its qualities.

Mayhaps, but for most people walking to the shop is easier than hopping... doesn't mean we try to hop anyway, out of some kind of respect for those with one leg.

[InCreator]

The plot thickens!

[Nacho]

Even Natcho came to the conclusion that christian religion is open-minded and its best points in behalf are the solid morality and respect for others.

I never said that, I think, and if I did... Sorry, I don't agree! I said that the bible is so opened that it will basically serve as a "sounding board". SSH parents were basically good people, so, their beliefs made then good (but with a "devine support"). Their sons are good and I pressume their grand daughters will be good as well. If you are evil, Bible (which basically is a big "Roschard") won't make you better.... You will go on being evil (but again, with devine support).

So... why does it work for? If Bible was making good people allways I would never complain, even considering it's false. But it is not. I am quite sure that Religion does not affect at all.

Bible also works for putting bombs in abortist medical centers, burn people, make crusades, blast Buses in Tel-Aviv... And that people is convinced that they are acting under the commitement of God/Allah/Yahvé... I would preffer no religion at all in the world. So, good people would see it as a merit and bad people would see their acts as what they are: Coward and unjustified.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

A lack of religion would not make people who do wrong suddenly admit it.  They would just come up with some other rationale for their crimes, like ghosts telling them to do it, or some secret knowledge that every fifth born child had to be killed to save the earth from a devastating asteroid, etc...

Religion, like anything else, can be twisted for evil ends.  You can kill a person with a butter knife if you want, but that's not its purpose, just as you can take harmless passages in the bible and make them into justifications for hatred.  This is a human flaw, not a bible flaw.

[MrColossal]

isn't a part of the problem is that there are passages in the bible that are not harmless?

[Nacho]

Religion, like anything else, can be twisted for evil ends.  You can kill a person with a butter knife if you want, but that's not its purpose, just as you can take harmless passages in the bible and make them into justifications for hatred.  This is a human flaw, not a bible flaw.

So, if it can' t solve human flaws, what does it work for? Solving that is something I would expect for something "divine inspired". Basically, what bible does, provoques, is undistinguishable from anything "non divine". I still have no clue, not only of its divinity, but also of its purpose.

[miguel]

Nacho, judging by your words, your biggest question is: "Why is the Bible for?".
Well, by now you should know and understand its contents, you should distinguish between what is the fable and the teachings and the myth.
Do you not believe that myths are part of the human condition? Do you think you are protected againts any form of myth just because you decided not to believe in everything you cannot see?
Well, my friend (can I call you that? Because I've been listening to you and answering you and I only do that with people I feel they have integrity), I must tell you that reading the Bible has changed people into someone better when they actually can understand it.
If you are not fully developed as an adult and someone with high charisma interprets the Bible as a way to tie some bombs on your waist and blow yourself ,then we could be talking about "mein kampf" for example. Maybe you've read it or are familiar with the subject but that did not make you a nazi.
Surely you can reach that, Nacho.

1) "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
2) "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,"
3) "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;"
4) "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."
5) "Honor thy father and thy mother:"
6) "Thou shalt not kill."
7) "Thou shalt not commit adultery"
8  "Thou shalt not steal."
9) "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."
10) "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house,.....nor anything that is thy neighbor's

Does this sound evil? Maybe you cannot agree with it according to the modern times, but please tell me why.
Remember that Christian religion and the Church had to speak to people that lived in the middle of the desert, did not know how to write or read, did not have any kind of a philosophic approach on things.

[MrColossal]

What does the bible suggest the punishment should be for breaking one of those commandments?

[Esseb]

Hehehe...you got me there!
If God was like Marlon Brando and Jesus like James Dean, you would not be laughing now!

But they are both dead...

OH MY! What a development! God is dead!

Yes, God is dead.

[auriond]

What does the bible suggest the punishment should be for breaking one of those commandments?

Nothing imposed by humans. In the same passage there is a vague reference to punishment for worshipping an idol: "I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments."

isn't a part of the problem is that there are passages in the bible that are not harmless?

For anything to be useful, it must have impact. And if it has impact, it has the potential for harm as well as good. A pillow is soft and cuddly but it can be used to smother someone. This is a rule of our universe, whether natural or God-made. But the object remains an object, and we hold the person accountable, not the object. That the Bible may have been divinely inspired, or divinely written, or written by a bunch of delusional madmen shouldn't have any bearing on the outcome.

So... why does it work for? If Bible was making good people allways I would never complain, even considering it's false. But it is not. I am quite sure that Religion does not affect at all.

Although I admit that I have no statistics (made up or otherwise) to support my point, I'm actually quite sure that religion results in more good people than bad. The good ones just never make the headlines. "A killer who changed his ways and turned to God" doesn't quite sell newspapers. "God made me kill my wife" does because it's not normal. It's in fact against what the religion teaches, and THAT sells newspapers.

[TheJBurger]

What does the bible suggest the punishment should be for breaking one of those commandments?

I was taught that the 10 Commandments shouldn't be seen as a "Do or Do Not List." You can interpret it that way, but I doubt you'll find it useful.

Instead, (someone told me to) interpret it as God showing us that we are imperfect, and hence sinful, because it's impossible to keep all the commandments. Every time you disobey a commandment, you are reminded of your sinful nature, and thus reminded that you need God.

It goes hand in hand with sinning and repentance. The idea is not to try and be a good little boy, but instead receive God.

Sorry if that sounds preachy, it wasn't meant to be.

[MrColossal]

I'm sorry, I really have can't understand what you're trying to say, Auriond. What does nothing imposed by humans mean? There are more than vague references to punishment in the bible.

And I don't understand what you mean in your second point. If a book supposedly without flaw and written by the christian god explains the ins and outs of properly purchasing a slave and selling your own daughter into slavery [I don't see how one can take this any other way BUT literally]... That's a little different than a pillow being used to smother someone. I could beat someone to death with the bible because it's fairly dense and a fair bludgeoning tool but that doesn't make it dangerous, what's written inside it makes it dangerous.

TheJBurger, in Exodus god says to honor the sabbath he then says, in Exodus whoever does work on the sabbath to kill them. That sounds very "Do" to me. In Numbers some dudes find a guy picking up sticks in the sabbath and the whole town kills him. Imagine if he was also not honoring his mother then! I understand that that is what you were taught, so how do you reconcile what your were taught and what the bible says to do to someone who gathers sticks on sunday? No disrespect, I just never get to ask people these questions and these are the big hurdles I have to over come to understand faith.

[TheJBurger]

TheJBurger, in Exodus god says to honor the sabbath he then says, in Exodus whoever does work on the sabbath to kill them. That sounds very "Do" to me. In Numbers some dudes find a guy picking up sticks in the sabbath and the whole town kills him. Imagine if he was also not honoring his mother then! I understand that that is what you were taught, so how do you reconcile what your were taught and what the bible says to do to someone who gathers sticks on sunday? No disrespect, I just never get to ask people these questions and these are the big hurdles I have to over come to understand faith.

Sorry, I don't know if I can give a full answer, because I myself am not that constituted with this kind of knowledge anyway.
From what I remember it has to do with Jesus terminating the old creation (1 Cor. 15:45, Jesus being the last Adam). I think--don't take my word for it--this means that the believers do away with the old practices because they have God's life within them.

2 Corinthians  5 : 17
17 So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, they have become new.

Verses that I think are related (stolen from a website!):
Rom. 6:6; Eph. 4:22; Col. 3:9; 2 Cor. 3:14; Heb. 8:13; Matt. 9:16-17; 1 Cor. 5:7-8; 2 Pet. 1:9; Heb. 1:11;

[MrColossal]

That's ok, I don't expect you to be a scholar and have written books on the subject, just having a [hopefully] friendly conversation.

What do you think of God even initially allowing that? Sure some people believe that he did away with the "old stuff" with Jesus but it was in there..... for how many years?