World of Today: Do you believe in what you want or in the truth?

[miguel]

Hello Agsers,

    One of the big mistakes of modern civilization is to think History didn't happen. The words of the elder and wise lost their weight on young people who are dominated by tons of superfluous information that arrives in a constant wave of propaganda every single minute.
    Like zoombies modern people live to buy and work for the ones that sell.
    Who is awake? But more important and dangerous, what kind of people are awake?
    The world stands trembling on the verge of social chaos with the capitalist societies crumbling apart. There are riots and a crescent revolt and need to change.
    There's a serious risk of the wrong people taking over important roles in the society.
    Charismatic persons normally rise from the crowd telling others they have the truth!
    This events just last week:
    Someone in South America just got a law approved that may allow him to be the newest dictator around.
    Someone in North Europe just denied the Holocaust like it never happened and told millions of people that what they learned in school was wrong.
    Some Germanic  anti-immigrant, skinhead and neo-Nazi groups in the eastern city of Dresden staged one of their biggest demonstrations since German reunification in 1990 last weekend, as 6,000 extremists marched through the streets .
    Wise thoughts and decisions needed.
    Please comment, thank you.     

[Babar]

Someone in the Government just agreed with the Taliban in Pakistan's Northwest areas to enforce a warped form of religious law. So now they have a ceasefire. But is it worth it?

Now I believe in God and all that, but something seems odd about being jailed for not having a beard of the required length, or deciding that educating girls is wrong, and thus torching a girl's school.

And my friend disappeared yesterday night. And was gone for over 24 hours, with all his friends and family going crazy. He's back now, but the people who brought him warned not to ask him questions about where he'd been.

I haven't had good news (the truth or not) for a long time. What is up with the world today?

[Nacho]

It' s virtually impossible to know if something is real or truth, unless you have been witness of it (And even so...). But being to many skeptik would convert us in cynicals, and denying EVERYTHING is just silly... So, the trick is to investigate, read as much sources as possible, and apply to all those information the previous expirience and logic.

It is a system that will fail a lot, but it' s better than nothing.

[Makeout Patrol]

To me, the problem is the contemporary Western version of the capitalist society. It is true that capitalism is pretty much the most effective method we have to ensure that the necessities of life are delivered to as many people as possible. The problem is that our capitalism favors wealth over genuine happiness - our societies are designed to bring as much money into our borders as possible, not to make people as happy as possible.

I've read of studies stating that self-reported happiness among people in a given area increases with per-capita GDP up to the point of roughly $10 000/year, but that further increases in wealth are not correlated with further increases in happiness - in fact, some studies show the opposite. It's also true that the Earth's natural resources are capable of sustaining - not attaining, but sustaining - all of humanity at a level of economic prosperity roughly equal to the American central middle class.

Instead, we have the poor and marginalized suffering in our most wealthy societies and entire regions of the world eking out miserable, short, desperately impoverished existences so that some individuals can claim a massive share of the Earth's wealth, despite the fact that said wealth offers no benefit in terms of happiness.

The real problem is that money is our cultural substitute for happiness. We all say that money can't buy happiness, or that there is more to life than money, or that money is not the only measure of success, but this isn't reflected in our institutions or our actions. Money is our cultural substitute for happiness, and as long as that's the case, the massive difference between classes are going to continue to create conflict.

[Nacho]

That post by Makeout Patrol makes me think that I possible missinterpreted what Miguel is asking...

[miguel]

babar, although I personally agree with you about any form of forcing people on personal things such as appearance or religious beliefs I think that there is such a thing named culture and some civilizations who are older than many contemporary ones have existed with those rituals and beliefs. Maybe when we, (western cultures) tried to change it, a gigantic gap was formed between our different worlds. Lawrence of Arabia the film deals with such affairs.
And yes, the world is sic and we are but pawns in it.

Nacho, I meant to say/ask if the information we all get is as close to the truth as it should be, and if the risk of some info being directed to form opinions and attitudes, sometimes dangerous ones.
I also wanted to kind of humbly warn everyone for the risk of being mislead by smart and opportunist characters that always appear on this fragile moments.

Makeout Patrol, maybe we should all boycott  TV programs like the ones showcasing meaningless people's mansions and their wardrobes full of the most expensive shoes and clothes! Programs showing artists million dollar rings and necklaces made with the sweat and blood of some.
It is that kind of money driven culture that you so well mentioned and I totally agree that we must fight and teach others to do the same.
The sad thing is that you are right. We need money, so bad that we sometimes forget how to be happy without it. 

[SpacePaw]

Oh my it's like some sort of conspiracy/zeitgeist thread I like this subject though. Remember that besides of what you know from your grandparents (or grand-grand) everything can be fabricated already

But for real...I know that there's a lot going on behind the scenes and that things are extreemly bad. The most important thing is not to give up. Be yourself. Be invidual. And try to make your friends like that as well. Always try to get the knowledge by yourself. Dont take anything told to you as ultimate truth. You belive in God? Why? Think about it. Maybe it's because of your parents? Or because all your friends at school belived?
Of course I dont say the God doesnt exist. He may. But be sure that YOU belive in him and have reasons to belive. For me science won with the bible.

Ah...Look at me...I changed the subject...sorry about that

[Khris]

If you look at Europe during the Dark Ages, things got way better during the last 500 years, and also during the last 50 years.
It will take time, and we might not be around to see it, but I'm pretty sure the average living conditions will constantly improve further until we've abolished the major problems of our time (poverty, hunger, religion).

[Raider]

I agree with Khris but I think it's impossible to abolish poverty. The unbalance in the world wouldn't work and the fact that poorer people have way more children than richer people. This is just increasing the number of people in poverty and decreasing the number of people with the opportunity of education.

Religion seems to restrict the way of life around the world, but I am open to it's concept if it brings good to people's lives. If any of you have not read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn I recommend it, it has a good insight about the downfall of man and the balance of man/nature.

Also going with what Makeout said I fully agree that the priorities need to change in western capitalism. Although money does often buy happiness. Just not always.

Nacho = correct imo about the perspectives of truth.

[HillBilly]

Man not another Obama thread.

It is true that capitalism is pretty much the most effective method we have to ensure that the necessities of life are delivered to as many people as possible.

I'll have to disagree with this: Socialism does that best, capitalism keeps up the work motivation.

Although money does often buy happiness. Just not always.

I notice the more unfulfilled and displeased a person is, the more "crap" he or she surrounds himself with. You could say the material wealth replaces the poverty in the soul if we're gonna be pretentious about it and hell I'm gonna be just that. I'm not saying we should all live under a tree but we can certainly live without most of the stuff we pack ourself in with.

[miguel]

KhrisMUC, I also think modern civilizations are better than they were 50 years ago but at the cost of the hard labouring man that has to go to work every day, has to raise children and pay for their education, and still pay for everything he needs or thinks he needs at an unreal price!
How much does a house really cost? Why do we pay 20 times more?
How much does food really cost? A lettuce? An egg? Why do we pay 10 times its price?
Shellfish is the most outrageous over priced product in the world! It's more common in Angola than grains of sand!
We pay for water in plastic bottles sometimes more than we pay for gasoline!

[Makeout Patrol]

It is true that capitalism is pretty much the most effective method we have to ensure that the necessities of life are delivered to as many people as possible.

I'll have to disagree with this: Socialism does that best, capitalism keeps up the work motivation.

If by "socialism" you mean "planned economies," I disagree, and I would refer you to the economies of the USSR and Communist China. If by "socialism" you mean "welfare state," then yeah, I agree.

[HillBilly]

If I was talking about Sovjet or China I'd probably use the word communism. A welfare state within a social democracy is likely the most effective and ethic system a country can have. I'm not saying it's perfect, as there's no such thing as the perfect system, but it beats both American capitalism and Chinese communism by far.

[miguel]

HillBilly, a welfare state within a social democracy is far from perfect as you can see European countries and their governments enlarging their debts on a suicidal spree just to keep social welfare running!
It will end in a close future, if not, at the very peak of the current world crisis.

[HillBilly]

Let's say you're right about that and the social welfare state "ends". What happens then? Every man for himself? The free market rule? Everyone becomes libertarians? A society that doesn't take care of those who can't take care of themselves is not a functional society.

[miguel]

Societies were created and modelled by man and they do end, as civilizations do too, the future is uncertain but it will surely resemble something out of a James Cameron movie, as the gap between the powerful and poor enlarges with time.
And maybe, and that just a big maybe, as I would not want that to happen, what Obama is willing to do about the American health services turning it into an "Europeanized" version might just be the end of the US as the weight of the Health Department on National budgets is, in some cases, bigger than 30%. And if you promise and give to a country such a bonus on life quality it makes it something very hard to "take back" as it would create social riots everywhere!
It's not hard to figure why Cuba has some of the most advanced medicine in the world as their government cuts down on everything else!
As for your "functional society" that never was, I guess man will have to reinvent something else.

[rharpe]

Society needs to change in one simple way... get rid of selfishness. People think more about themselves and what they want then they think about their neighbor. Should we all start thinking less of ourselves maybe we'll have a fighting chance. For example:

Upper Class scenario: I'm a movie star that has all the money I could ever want, but I want to stay famous, continue to increase my earnings, have whatever I feel like, and do whatever I please. 

Working Class scenario: I'm a Police officer and I make a decent wage but my wife needs to work too so that we can pay for our huge home, our four vehicles, and other toys. We want a yacht some day so that when I get my pension we can splurge on our savings. 

Poverty Class scenario: I am unemployed because I can't hold a job. I live off of welfare, food stamps, and I get cable TV (most basic package.)  I don't want to go back to work because the government is paying for all that I need and want. (If I were to get a job, I would lose all that government assistance.)

All the classes above are selfish. In what ways can they change?

I am selfish too. :'( Are you?

[InCreator]

Poverty Class scenario: I am unemployed because I can't hold a job. I live off of welfare, food stamps, and I get cable TV (most basic package.)  I don't want to go back to work because the government is paying for all that I need and want. (If I were to get a job, I would lose all that government assistance.)

This applies to countries where you actually could live off welfare.

For example, where I live, average rent/apartment/etc cost per month is $200-300, food & basic stuff - about $200, and human needs a bit more than food and shelter to live, so add everything else.
Also, it's quite unlikely to find anyone who has less than $100 of monthly loan or lease payment. So, survival starts at about $500. Seniors get $400 of pension monthly and somehow survive too.

Average wage is $700-800.

Welfare for unemployed is... $60!
Yup, that's it. sixty lousy dollars. Nothing else.

Have fun trying to survive with this. It won't cover even monthly toilet paper.

EDIT: corrected numbers a bit.

[HillBilly]

Societies were created and modelled by man and they do end, as civilizations do too, the future is uncertain but it will surely resemble something out of a James Cameron movie, as the gap between the powerful and poor enlarges with time.

You're saying there's a bigger gap between the poor and the powerful now than it was in e.g. the dark ages? Hasn't it always been there, and hasn't there always been people complaining about how it's expanding? (I agree it's bad)

And maybe, and that just a big maybe, as I would not want that to happen, what Obama is willing to do about the American health services turning it into an "Europeanized" version might just be the end of the US as the weight of the Health Department on National budgets is, in some cases, bigger than 30%. And if you promise and give to a country such a bonus on life quality it makes it something very hard to "take back" as it would create social riots everywhere!

The American health system is terrible and if it means gradually increasing taxes to improve it I don't really see why someone would object to that with reason. Good health is actually the number one reason people are still alive!

It's not hard to figure why Cuba has some of the most advanced medicine in the world as their government cuts down on everything else!

What's your conclusion on this? Every country that bets on the health system is doomed to be an evil communist regime?

As for your "functional society" that never was, I guess man will have to reinvent something else.

What "else"? We've been through quite a lot the last 10 000 or so years, each one pretty much not giving a shit about the poor or disabled up until less than a hundred years ago. Social security is one of the most important services we have, and your argument of having to abolish it for "something else" is thin.

[SinSin]

And here we still stand divided although common interest is the key here we are all still puppets. but who is the master .....   

The Bank  be it federal reserve or treasury or any of those top banks
As long as there is money and entertainment for the little ones they will be ignorant

All we have is hope ...   However little is left