Unhealthy Food, Healthy Food

[Meowster]

Sorry we hijacked the other thread

@Meowster: That's the general public's view, and that's the reason why organic food can be sold at higher prices.
This view stems from the popular belief that "artificial/industrial/processed = bad, natural = good", which, of course, is also not always true, not even most of the time.
Here's a study that nicely links both recent topics:
A comparison of the vitamin C content of fresh and frozen vegetables

There are many similar wrong ideas that are widely believed to be true, e.g. that fast food is bad in general.
But eating a Big Mac every day is fine, as long as you balance it with, say, a glass of orange juice.
Another example are the alleged beneficial effects of eating green salad. It has the nutritional value of a piece of paper.
Or take diets: a diet will cause a gain of weight, not weight-loss. Exercise will cause weight-loss, a diet will simply make the body use better what ends up inside of it, thus decrease what gets discarded.

(Note that these are not personal beliefs I just pulled out of my ass but insight gained from scientific studies.)

But, like I said, this thread is about Oliwerko's swollen throat, so unless it's OK with him, we might discuss this in another thread.

I get what you're saying - it's all about balance. But that still does not mean a big mac is good for you just because you balance it with something that is. The calorie, sugar, salt contents of such foods are actually not good bad for you. It doesn't mean you're immediately gonna die from having one obviously, and man I am such a sucker for McDonalds breakfasts occasionally... but it doesn't mean they're good for you either.

And regarding diets: again, it's about balance and also knowing the details. Exercise and a healthy low-calorie diet will make you lose weight faster than either of those alone. There is a benefit to restricting your calorie intake in terms of weight loss, so long as you do it right and don't make your body think it is starving.

There are scientific studies to support both sides of the argument unforunately

But since you've done a lot of reading about this, maybe you can answer a question I've had for a while regarding the Atkins Diet. One of my friends did this diet and holy crap, did he lose weight quickly - and he did not supplement it with exercise. I've been losing weight quite quickly recently just by eating lots of salads, fish and veggies, and doing lots of sports like rock climbing and running. But even though I'm pleased with the rate I'm losing weight, I still don't understand how the Atkins Diet works.

There have been a whole bunch of scientific studies about it, and how it works, and though there are arguments to support lots of different theories, the overall concensious SEEMS to be that

1. The Atkins Diet can make people feel nauseous which makes them eat less
2. It restricts the things you're allowed to eat so that it's almost impossible overeat your daily calorie allowance anyway (for instance you're allowed to eat all the butter you want, but since you're not allowed pasta, bread, crackers etc... you have nothing to put it on....)
3. The body being in ketosis reduces the appetite

So overall the Atkins Diet allegedly has the same impact as a low calorie diet because people end up eating less.

But I don't know if this can be true because my low calorie diet and loads of sports/exercise (which I'm currently doing to get into prime shape for climbing, so I'm doing it in the healthiest effing way possible) is not making me lose weight nearly as fast as someone doing Atkins and NO exercise.

I think I remember reading that calories obtained from carb-rich foods get turned into fat more easily than non-carb foods, I don't know if this is true or if that could be part of the reason why Atkins works.

Anyone got any ideas?

[Misj']

But since you've done a lot of reading about this, maybe you can answer a question I've had for a while regarding the Atkins Diet. One of my friends did this diet and holy crap, did he lose weight quickly - and he did not supplement it with exercise.

In general the quick weight loss at the start of these kind of diets is caused by loss of fluid rather than fat (which is what most of these diets claim). This is a general property of most diets and weight-loss-programs particularly those where you see effects quickly, so while I know little about Atkins, it's likely that this applies here too. This loss of fluids does however not result in a healthier body; and the loss of body fat would be the next step which is far less radical.


On a side-note:

(Note that these are not personal beliefs I just pulled out of my ass but insight gained from scientific studies.)
...
There are scientific studies to support both sides of the argument unforunately
...
There have been a whole bunch of scientific studies about it, and how it works, and though there are arguments to support lots of different theories, the overall concensious SEEMS to be that.

I personally hate it when people quote 'scientific studies' without references...there is no way for me to check their credibility (or the accuracy of the interpretation by whomever quoted them).

[Find Therma]

Having studied nutrition for two years as part of my uni course I couldn't resist sticking my nose in here.

Meowster is right. A Big Mac doesn't become more healthy just because you drink some orange juice with it. The overloaded carlorific content of the Big Mac stays the same, and in fact you're just taking in more calories from the orange juice. Eating a Big Mac a day isn't healthy no matter how many pairs of rose tinted specs you put on!

Regarding the Atkins diet issue. The way to lose weight is via a change to a healthier overall lifestyle.  Period.

Any fad diet, whether it be Atkins or something else, will allow you to lose weight in the short term as Misj' says,  however almost invariably (and the percentage figure is very very high) you wil gain more weight in the long term and end up heavier than you were to start with.

[zabnat]

Ahh, weight loss, a simple thing turned in to a billion dollar industry.
The only way to lose weight (fat) is to take in less energy than you consume. To do this is no harder than using some related webpage to calculate your energy consumption (based on weight, age etc) and then compare it to what you eat. Eating too little might cause some problems especially with exercise. Also if you like your muscles, you should have enough protein in your diet. When I'm dropping weight (usually for a competition) I just take care I eat about 500-1000 calories less than I consume and that I get enough protein.

I've seen success with Atkins diet also (long term too). But I don't think I could do that. I tend to eat high-protein food, because protein is good if you exercise and has half the calories fat does and makes you feel more full than fat does. But the succesfuls Atkins diets are also result of eating less than you consume.

So if losing weight is your goal, I would say first just count the calories.

I don't really know about healty foods. I try to avoid bad fats, but I have know clue what should I eat to get all the vitamins and minerals body needs. So I use supplements for that.

Another example are the alleged beneficial effects of eating green salad. It has the nutritional value of a piece of paper.

Piece of paper might have the same content of carbs than green salad, but I doubt it has the same amount of vitamins and minerals.

[Khris]

I don't know much about the Atkins diet. I never tried to loose weight (and I don't have to) and I choose what to eat solely on the basis of what I find tasty.
I'm very skeptical towards Atkins' diet or any other diet that relies solely on eating less or specific food.

@Find Therma:
I didn't say that a Big Mac is healthy. But in the end it's just calories, or fat, proteins and the rest. It isn't made of some special substance that's a health risk in itself. So depending on what and how much you eat the rest of the day, you can live a completely healthy life and still eat a burger each day. It's just some bread and some meat, isn't it?
(Of course I'm aware that switching three healthy meals for five big macs is not healthy.)

@zabnat:

Another example are the alleged beneficial effects of eating green salad. It has the nutritional value of a piece of paper.

Piece of paper might have the same content of carbs than green salad, but I doubt it has the same amount of vitamins and minerals.

You can doubt it all you want of course. That doesn't change that green salat is more or less just water and doesn't have any significant amount of vitamins or minerals.

[big brother]

I would suggest basing your goal on body fat composition. Often people who lose weight from dieting end up in worse shape health-wise (and it's easier to relapse and become heavier than they were post-diet). When you restrict your calorie intake, your body tends to retain stored fat on a famine premise. Faced with a calorie deficit (esp with a low carb intake), your body burns stored protein for energy. When you lose weight through this method (3500 calories under what you burn for each pound you lose), your percentage of body fat increases, putting you at higher risk for heart-failure and other health problems.

This is why bodybuilders will actually add some fat to their diet (flax seed oil, etc.).

[Darth Mandarb]

I practice what I call the "moderation" plan.  It's not really eating only specific foods (though I do tend to develop a routine of eating the same things - which I have to break occasionally!) it's more about simple moderation of what I eat.  The famous "counting calories" idea.

The "Eating Plan" (I don't like the term "diet")
Sunday - Friday I maintain an intake of about 1800-2000 calories a day.  I avoid all fried foods and get a balance of chicken, turkey, and veggies.  I eat very little red meat (but on occasion I do crave it and don't deny myself).  I cannot cut cheese out entirely, but I do severely limit my consumption of it.  I eat no fastfood (McDonalds, Wendy's, Burger King, etc) except, on rare occasions, I do love me some taco bell!! (more on that in a bit).  I eat almost no candy (the occasional bag of peanut m&ms).  It's very difficult to maintain this at first but after awhile it's easy.  I don't even crave stuff anymore.  They have donuts here every morning and I don't even look at them anymore.

Exercise Routine
On Monday, Wednesday, and Friday I weight-train (on the bowflex), and on all days I do cardio (elliptical, jump-rope, rollerblading, etc.) I prefer working out in the morning (before work) but many believe working out in the evening achieves better results.  I could go either way on that one so I stick with my morning routines.

My Secret
Every saturday is my "cheat day" where I take the day off.  I don't workout (though sometimes I still get in a workout) and I eat whatever I want!  I might even eat some Taco Bell (Toxic Hell!) as mentioned above!  Once a month (on a saturday) I order a pizza!  Now, pizza every day still tastes good ... but there is no pizza that tastes better than that one you have only every so often.  It's awesome!

I started this life-style on my 30th birthday after seeing my fat-ass 250lbs (~114 kilos) in a mirror.  After less than a year of this life-style I had dropped 50lbs and maintain a very healthy 200lb (~91 kilos) weight which I am still maintaining today.  I am a big guy (6'4 or 1.83m1.94m (thanks Arboris - that's what I get for trusting an internet conversion calculator!)) if anybody was wondering

I think human beings, though of course similar, vary too much to have a specific method that is "best" for maintaining a healthy life-style.  You have to figure out what works for you.  For me it's counting calories and just overall moderation but I know of several friends who this method does nothing for (though I suspect they are cheating!)

To quote the incomparable Alf

ALF "I'm trying a new diet ... you eat as much as you want, of whatever you want, whenever you want"
LYNNE "And you lose weight that way?"
ALF "You do?"

[Mr Flibble]

Just to put my oar in here since there seems to be some confusion about how low carbohydrate diets like Atkins work.

Without carbohydrates, your body stops receiving glucose from your food. But it still needs it, so it turns to the glycogen (stored glucose) in your body (and extracts it via a process known as ketosis). Reduction in appetite is a side effect, this (edit: ie. the ketosis and fat metabolism) is the reason people lose weight on it. However, just because you can lose weight doesn't make it a healthy way to eat, as I'm sure a lot of people realise.

I try to avoid food that's been processed, or that is abnormally high in fat, sugar or salt. I also try to vary what I eat and make sure I get at least a fair amount of fresh fruit and vegetables throughout the day. I don't count calories or anything but I do eat things which I know to be bad for me in moderation.

Edit: Unclear phrasing changed

[Misj']

I am a big guy (6'4 or 1.83m) if anybody was wondering

Where I live we call that average height

[Stee]

My Secret
I started this life-style on my 30th birthday after seeing my fat-ass 250lbs (~114 kilos) in a mirror.  After less than a year of this life-style I had dropped 50lbs and maintain a very healthy 200lb (~91 kilos) weight which I am still maintaining today.  I am a big guy (6'4 or 1.83m) if anybody was wondering

Thats not a bad weight. Im about 13.5stone (aka 189lbs for people that don't like our normal system  ) but im only about 5'8.

And I thought all americans were fat 


6'4 isn't average, but I guess its average for a tall guy. Everyone whose tall seems to be 6'4.

My Secret

The seafood diet

See food and eat it 

Although I avoid McD's and other similar stuff most of the time. I reckon the real reason its called fast food is because it makes you full to the point were you feel sick for about an hour or two... then your starving again. Most of it tastes vile too (although there's something about the burgers I like).

[Arboris]

I'm 6'4, which is 1.94m, not 1.83m.

[Misj']

I'm 6'4, which is 1.94m, not 1.83m.

Which makes a lot more sense - Of course 1.83m is still considered tall in many countries...so now I'm curious as to how tall Darth is (I guess 6'4 is correct rather than 1.83 (6'0)).

[Darth Mandarb]

Haha!  Stupid internet conversion calculator!

I'm 6'4" / 1.94m ... why oh why can't we (the US) just convert to the [logical, makes more sense] metric system!?!

[Khris]

Indeed, the only other countries that use imperial units are Myanmar and Liberia (no kidding)

[Stee]

Do you know what they call a 1/4lb burger with cheese in France? 

[Anian]

I'm 6'4" / 1.94m ... why oh why can't we (the US) just convert to the [logical, makes more sense] metric system!?!

Yeah, I was a bit confused as well, cause I know I'm about 6'4'', and I'm 1.94m, but didn't want to go off topic. I still don't get how it's easier to say ie 5/6 of an inch instead of 21mm and similar.

onT:
These are tips that I learned, and I lost about 25kg just following these tips (I'm now again a bit out of shape, but that's cause I had an operation but it's all ok now and I'm getting back into action):

- eat diverse food (all food groups) and in regular meals (especially don't skip breakfast like cereals or an apple, it keeps the digestion going),
- no inbetween snacks (try to notice this, just fight the urge it gets easier after a week or two).
- some sort of sport or gym is usefull and you might not lose weight right away but you'll start to feel better soon. For example if I keep a "diet" I won't lose much or anything at all, but if I star exercising I'll start to lose weight within a week.
- one thing I noticed was that when I started driniking more water and less juices is that I wanted the sugar from the juice even when I wasn't thirsty and really it was like an addiction, same thing goes for chocolatte and similar stuff.
- drink a glass of water or two before a meal and you can eat less, same goes if you eat a salad (no oil, just spices) before the actual meal. Also eat what you put on a plate, no seconds and similar things.
- one more thing, not directly connected to food - weigh yourself daily or at least every other day, it's much easier to keep in check, because if you gain a 3-4kg, you can just eat little less for a day or two but if you gain 10kg then you have more problems and it gets harder

Friendly tips - when you want a snack or have a craving - drink a glass of water (I have a bottle of water in my fridge always) or if it's real bad - drink some tomato sauce/juice (not ketchup), you wouldn't believe how much it reduces any craving you have, and when you get used to it, it's actually not that bad, plus it has like no calories and lots of vitamins.

I know people "don't eat much but still put on wieght", I was one of those people and glands and other excuses but like 5% of people have a serious problem with that, other people may have those problems but you can work around them if you keep it in control.

[Mr Flibble]

The UK still uses imperial units for distance, height and weight. Everything else is metric.

It's a bizarre mix but I'm incredibly comfortable with it.

[Meowster]

Having studied nutrition for two years as part of my uni course I couldn't resist sticking my nose in here.

Meowster is right. A Big Mac doesn't become more healthy just because you drink some orange juice with it. The overloaded carlorific content of the Big Mac stays the same, and in fact you're just taking in more calories from the orange juice. Eating a Big Mac a day isn't healthy no matter how many pairs of rose tinted specs you put on!

Regarding the Atkins diet issue. The way to lose weight is via a change to a healthier overall lifestyle.  Period.

Any fad diet, whether it be Atkins or something else, will allow you to lose weight in the short term as Misj' says,  however almost invariably (and the percentage figure is very very high) you wil gain more weight in the long term and end up heavier than you were to start with.

This is what perplexes me about the Atkins Diet though. People DO lose weight on it (whether it's unhealthy or not, the fact remains that they still lose bloody loads of weight), and I can't see a reasonable reason for it. It's not just water weight. I understand what water weight is, and they did not just lose water weight - they lost about 30lbs of actual, visible weight... and very quickly. Quicker than I do with my extremely healthy calorie-controlled diet and shitloads of exercise.

Also I don't know what constitutes a fad diet but from my understanding of what that means, the Atkins diet isn't one, as I've seen it working with people. I wouldn't do it because I'm happy doing things my healthy way, but I have seen it work remarkably well in terms of aesthetics

When I look at the things people eat/drink on Atkins, not only does the (what I understand to be) unhealthy aspect of it make me shudder, but it also doesn't make sense that so much weight should be lost so quickly. There seem to be two Atkins camps - steadfastly against and steadfastly for the Atkins diet. I would love to hear an unbiased and educated opinion on it, simply because the whole thing perplexes me.

[Darth Mandarb]

I would love to hear an unbiased and educated opinion on it, simply because the whole thing perplexes me.

The unbiased opinion I can provide.  How educated it is I am not so sure   I am impartial to Adkins.  I think it works for some, and not for others.  For example; my mum was on Atkins for about 2 years and lost (in the first 5-6 months) over 30lbs and maintained it (she's smallish so that's a substantial amount of weight for her!)  My father, who did the exact same diet as her (at the same time) lost almost no weight on it (about 10lbs, and he's largish like me so that's very little weight for him).  Again, as I said above ... I think it's a matter of certain "diets" work for certain people and not for others.  I believe that human physiology varies too much for there to be one diet/eating plan that is "best".  I, personally, never tried Adkins 'cause I couldn't live without bread

This is, of course, just an opinion (or suspicion) on my part as I'm not a nutritionist or doctor.  I'm just basing the opinion on my own experience and off of witnessing those around me.

[Find Therma]

Just looking on the Atkins website and reading about The Atkins Nutritional Approach, which is apparently a 'long-term plan for weight loss and weight management that works unlike any diet you've ever seen or tried.'

Interestingly it also says 'Throw in some essential, yet fun, activity...'.

Ah, so really what they're saying is that long term weight loss occurs because energy in is less than energy out - i.e. requiring the consumption of less calories AND exercising. Nothing new there.

However playing devils advocate - Carbs are the body's main energy source, however in the Atkins diet carbs are cut-out or restricted. So when exercising what does the body do? It's forced to move on to the next best source of energy, fat. Perhaps this has something to do with Atkins weight loss, particularly in the early stages.