Summer means no religion or politics?

[Khris]

In my opinion, the belief in a God doesn't deserve an ounce of respect more than the belief in unicorns. And why should it?
Also, a huge percentage of violence today is a direct result of people getting offended because other people don't *believe* in the same superstitions.

And as long as the churches recruit followers at an age where they can't tell good advice from useless advice, it'll stay that way, I guess.

I can remember when I stopped believing and I think I mentioned it in another thread already. It was about two minutes after I found out that Christianity isn't the only religion.

[Tuomas]

In my opinion, the belief in a God doesn't deserve an ounce of respect more than the belief in unicorns. And why should it?

In a way you yourself explained it later in your post. When a superstition becomes a powerful weapon, basically more powerful than man himself, it really is not a good idea to ignore it completely. One must remember, that people believing in unicorns doesn't have the same consequenses. That's 'respect' in a sense. On a personal level, I'm having a hard time respecting people's beliefs myself just the collective idea. If not respect, then at least be wary of.

[miguel]

MrColossal, I didn't want to put words in your mouth but I understood it that way and yes I was talking about the Catholic Church. It sure has been involved on some hard to explain shameful cases related to child abuse, money laundering and other. I can't deny facts nor I will. But again, (and now I will sound cheesy as someone mentioned but maybe I'm just not cool) Jesus was the first to rebel against stupid practices on temples, and God did punish men that wrongly tried to "play" God. I am the first to regret the way classic Church has not been able to compromise with the modern world. For those interested there are new Christians, simple guys that work, have families, condemn paedophiles, and even try to make adventure games.

Natcho, they (evidences) are.

Tuomas: It reminds me of a small episode of my childhood:
           I was attending Christian classes (don't know how to call it) when I was about 8/9 years old and this gentle Nun was explaining us kids that God condemned killing others. Something we all knew, God didn't have to tell us that, except for the bad guys on cowboy movies. Even the bad guys? Confusing.
           Some lessons later, I was asked to step up and explain why men should not kill. Well, I must say I was a bright boy back then and watched a lot of TV. National Geographic! So my little brain came out with something like, "We should not kill to preserve the human race from extinction!". Now she was confused!
           I don't know, Tuomas, but that Nun and the others were always very soft paced on teaching, and aware that TV existed, very carefully joining both worlds. The classic teachings and the modern world.
          I grew up, did my thing, and ended up deciding for myself in what to believe.

KhrisMUC, yet I don't see people fighting over unicorns. You stopped believing but others didn't, and the seed was planted in you, you just have to let it grow again. If someday you'll need Him. He'll listen to you.
       How cheesy was that?      

[Nacho]

Natcho, they (evidences) are.

Quote them; And then compare them with the evidences that there is a galaxy, far far away where Luke Skywalker fights with the evil Galactic Empire.

[LUniqueDan]

Nacho don't be that brutal. 
Luke did fight (and win) against the evil galactic empire. I have proofs.
I swear. :'(

[miguel]

Star Wars?
Maybe I'm being too serious about this thread. And that wasn't what I intended.
Fair enough, looks like I'm the only Christian around the forums.
Better than being the only gay in the village!

[Andail]

You're far from the only Christian in the community. It's just that most Christians don't really bother to enter religious debates, since sooner or later they'd be promted to "prove" that god exists. 

It would be more interesting to discuss various religions from anthropological, historical, philosophical or psychological viewpoints, instead of breaking it down to whether you can prove that God exists, which naturally you cannot.

[miguel]

I guess you're right Andail and I should have known better. Anyway, I was the one to start this thread and raise the controversy every time I could. The plan was to get people talking but I only got people blaming it on the Church, as always 

I knew you're thoughts from previous threads, but it seams that you're the only one to step out every time. It's a shame, really.
I feel sad about all this certainties that most forum members have, in their assumption that they don't need God they become bitter in their words, often mixed with ugly words that in no way rises their charismatic web persona.
   

[Vince Twelve]

Better than being the only gay in the village!

  Because... your love would always be unrequited?

I feel sad about all this certainties that most forum members have, in their assumption that they don't need God they become bitter in their words, often mixed with ugly words that in no way rises their charismatic web persona.

Don't forget that you have "certainties" as well that you defend bitterly.  The problem with religious arguments is that nothing that is going to be said in an internet forum is going to change the minds of anyone else on a topic where people already have their beliefs so firmly implanted in their minds.  The whole thing becomes pointless.

Now lets bring this thread back to talking about how much the American health care system sucks.

[miguel]

Actually I'd love to wear pink speedos and die my hair blonde...But I can't, I'm married!

Vince, I agree that I'll never change one's mind over the internet nor was my first post intended to. As for bitterness and the choice of words when discussing something that may be relevant to somebody, than yes, I rephrase that some members do not follow the simple rules of education.
For example, I carefully read what you said about the American wealth system and I think it is, at most points, plain cruel to the average American. It's odd that such a developed country doesn't take care of their own. Even medication is only about money making over there.
Now, what I wrote and believe may not sound quite nice to an American. Imagine if I did lower the tone and went  about American f..... hypocrisy over the rest of the world and  so on?
See where I want to get? People put their fingers on the keyboard and they just spell it out without conscience.

[Matti]

Now lets bring this thread back to talking about how much the American health care system sucks.

Yeah, I DID try to lead the discussion into that direction for I wasn't really interested in just another religious debate.

But let me add that KhrisMUCs point (the one about him losing his belief in god) is something important imo. Personally I don't care what people believe in and I'm all for religious freedom - while I have to admit that I'd find it pleasant, if religious belief would fade away and at some point wouldn't exist anymore.... but that's less important.

The point is that while I can understand that people believe in something, may it be ghosts, fairies or the bunch of indian or greek gods, I can't understand how one really can believe in something you were told to believe in. One country/culture/whatever believes in GOD (the one without a name), another one in Allah and another in Ganesha, Shiva, Vishnu and a few more.

How can that be? The only reason is that the people are being raised to believe in certain gods. By their parents, their school and their culture. They don't have a sudden intuition and realize that there must be someone who created the world and looks over makind, no, they just adopt the belief that surrounds him. And THAT is the most ridiculous thing about religion imo. It doesn't make sense at all and nobody can tell me that he genuinely believes in something that somebody else told him must be right...

Also, the second important point is: How can anybody have anything to do with the church? An institution with such a bloody history, with 'employees' who tell you that evolution doesn't exist and that dictatorship is unquestionable cause it's all part of god's plan. Christianity brought the f*§&$?g middle-ages to Europe and the catholic's leader (the "devil in a white hat" (Reverend Lovejoy)  ) goes to Africa and tells the people that contraception isn't a solution to the AIDS problem.

Real belief can only be personal and surely can't be part of a global religion millions of people say they're part of. A George Bush is calling himself a christian and invades a country. But he goes to church and is accepted there.

Shit, I somehow lost my point here and should better stop (for once). I hope I got my points across though..


EDIT: Miguel, I can't see bitterness in the posts and no insults either..

[Nacho]

Miguel, I am not going to discuss with someone who believes in God. Those who believe in God have such a deep throath to swallow illogical things that it's just silly to try to convince them of something different.

I mean... "I believe that there was a guy, who resembled to us, who make all the universe... and he survived the big bang, no matter what physicians say! And after the big bang he took a big nap, but after 6 billions years he woke up and said "Oh, shit! My task here was to do a race of guys who are similar to me!" and he did. And there was a period when he was really noticeable, you know? He was here everyday, , sending messages to Abraham, sending plagues, opening the seas, and all that... One day he said: "Ok! Enough! Now I will disappear, the only evidence of my existence will be the set of legends that a group of desert sheppards will write down in leather scrolls!" And some centuries after he send his son, who said things completelly different to that thigs that the sheppards wrote on their sacred books, but nobody cared..."

For me, someone who believes such a set of ideas is clearly too deep into a belief that trying to discuss with him about those issues is useless. So... Do you believe in God? Good... I believe in smurfs.

[Vince Twelve]

Actually I'd love to wear pink speedos and die my hair blonde...But I can't, I'm married!

Wait... was that a response about being the only gay in the village?  I'm so lost...    Why do I read this thread?

[Andail]

Miguel, I am not going to discuss with someone who believes in God. Those who believe in God have such a deep throath to swallow illogical things that it's just silly to try to convince them of something different.
.....
For me, someone who believes such a set of ideas is clearly too deep into a belief that trying to discuss with him about those issues is useless. So... Do you believe in God? Good... I believe in smurfs.

Nacho, you said that you would avoid this thread and not enter any more religious debates this whole year, and instead you come back with even more anti-religious provokations.

Please at least let people enjoy the liberty of believing in God.

It's one thing to point out that the catholic church would be better if there weren't pedophiles among their priests, and it's one thing to point out that we don't need biblical verses in the splash screen of AGS, but it's another thing to ridicule and insult the very concept of having a faith.

So instead of just keeping cool, you decide to come back and - for the millionth time - challenge someone to prove that their God is more real than Smurfs, Unicorns, Luke Skywalker etc etc etc. How does this give you pleasure?

If we can't move on to something more fruitful to discuss, this thread will be closed.

[Intense Degree]

*Steers topic away from religion

I don't understand what America's problem is with an NHS style healthcare provision. Being a UK resident I get annoyed by the NHS's failings and bad points (and there are many!) and I know most others do too. However, you hardly ever hear people seeking to do away with it altogether in favour of private only (well, maybe the rich...).

It's a long way from perfect but surely having even a mediocre healthcare option available to all must be better than having a situation where people without the money can't get help?

Be interested to hear American viewpoints on this, particularly from those who are against it.

[Nacho]

Ain't your "locky trigger finger" a bit too fast lately? This is the best thread we had in years... One thing is wanting peacefull forums, the other is to do it by killing anything remotelly funny...

The spirit of my post is that "God" is such an unbelieverable that, if someone does believe in it, he/she is a lost case. If someone understood something different, I apology.

Anyway I believe that, being as we are in the 21st century, is about time that if someone says that "God is like the Unicorns or Smurfs" people, including nonbelievers, don't start toring their hair out to censor this view.

I mean... Somone can say "I believe that there is a 6 billion years white bearded man floating in heaven who made it all" and someone can't say "I don't believe it" or "Prove it!"? Wow... That's what I call having "Letter of marque". And I hate that in the 21st century there are beliefs that still have letter of marque.

[Babar]

I think you're a few centuries ahead of the times, Nacho. Currently more than 85% of the world believes in some sort of supernatural force. That is a lot of lost causes.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me what anyone thinks of me in terms of my beliefs (or anything else), but the point is that sometimes it is nicer to just be polite.

Wouldn't it be highly irritating if (for example) people are having an interesting and though provoking political discussion, but someone keeps chiming in with "<Blahblah> is an idiot beyond doubt, and anyone who votes for him is a lost cause!" or "You are behind the <Blahblah> party?! That is so unbelievable! You might as well be part of the Galactic Empire!"

While everyone should have the right to say whatever they want about whatever they want, they should still exercise some civility and consideration for the other person's feelings.
Now I know there is a huge trend in the attitude of "This is what I believe, and I feel that to sugarcoat my opinions would be hypocrisy!", but sometimes it is nice to just be courteous.

[Nacho]

85%? The poll where you took that figures must be really flawed... It must be around 5 %, actually. I guess that the poll actually counts any baptized (or initiated, in those religions which do not have baptism) as a "believer". Which is extremelly uncorrect of course... And unfair, because millions of kids are initiated without being asked, or before having the necessary tools to decide if what the adults say have sense or not.

Letter of Marque.

[Babar]

5%? Maybe in Europe (Or actually not...only 18% of EU citizens say that "they do not believe there is a spirit, God, nor life force", and the highest percentage of atheists/nontheists/don'tcareists is 84% in Estonia). I just pulled the statistics off wikipedia (I know, shoddy scholarship ), but they seem to come from Encyclopaedia Britannica c. 2005:
* 2.3% Atheists: Persons professing atheism, skepticism, disbelief, or irreligion, including the militantly antireligious (opposed to all religion).
* 11.9% Nonreligious: Persons professing no religion, nonbelievers, agnostics, freethinkers, uninterested, or dereligionized secularists indifferent to all religion but not militantly so.

Which amounts to about less than 15%. I'd be happy to see if you have any "more accurate" statistics. I somehow doubt that the number of people who believe in some sort of supernatural force would be only 5%...

Anyhow, if you ask me, "prove that god exists" is a lost cause in terms of discussion. There are many more interesting things to talk about in terms of spirituality, religion and belief. Or we could talk about the NHS .

[Nacho]

No... I just want you to tell me the differences between nowadays religions and any other sucessful trend, like, for example, Star Wars, being a F.C. Barcelona fan or, let' s say, believe in Zeus.

Why nowadays "everybody" agrees that the Greek tradition was uncorrect and that very people still believe the modern one is correct? Why? Which are the differences?

-Greeks had the iconography... They were able to "see" Zeus, Atenea and Heracles as we can see now Jesus or Virgin Mary.
-Had lot of historical references, if looked for with the "correct eye"... Even "forensics" evidences, if you want.
-The believe had lots of followers... a high percentage of the civilised world believe on that.
-They had a lot of side books and legends, that "re-inforced" the believe. Those legendes wer written along a huge period of time, and made the original history richer.
-The followers are CONVINCED that what they believe is real.

But, hey! Nowadays we are CONVINCED that ancient greeks were not right... Now we ARE! (And some believers dare to call skeptics egocentrics, hehe...)



I remember than once SSH asked me the reasons why I was a F.C. Barcelona fan, I guess he wanted to annoy me "attacking" something that was "sacred" somehow for me.

He gave me the best anti-religious argument ever.

Football is like religion: I like Barça because I was told that Barça existed... My dad told to me, I saw it in the newspapers, in the TV news... If I was born in the middle of the Amazon I wouldn't have magically turned into a Barcelona fan. Same with believers: It' s knowleadge that comes from tradition, not from something supernatural above.

Football gives me a feeling of belonging. I see people who likes my team, I share moments with them, I worship my team with them every weekends. I feel comfortable with F.C. Barcelona... I like football because it makes my life better, not because there is a supernatural being above. Like religion. Who would worship God if he didn't promise a reward? No one.

I am CONVINCED that my team is the best and that the rival is the bad one. I am so convinced that it makes me feel weird that there is someone in "the other side" as convinced as I am... They can't be... I must be right! My team is the good one. Period. Like believers... They are so convinced that God is real that they can't understand that non believers must be right. They can't be right... I am convinced: God must exist.

But there are two main differences: I never claimed that Barcelona is a team created by something supernatural. There is no supernatural source: When I argue with a Real Madrid fan I would never dare to introduce into the discussion something of the sort of "Barcelona has an overwhelming power... if you don' t like Barcelona you' ll spent the rest of the eternity in hell". Football is football.

If I have a football argument at the bar I will never turn back and whisper "Okay... discussion ended... but you are wrong!" like a modern Galileo, something believers do. The believer introduces the supernatural force in the discussion because if he can't win he will always think "Well... poor them... I have my GOD!"

And the second main difference: F.C. Barcelona is not teached at schools to minors, with public money.

Two big differences...