Summer means no religion or politics?

[miguel]

I feel I'm heading into a trap. Explaining something that I cannot prove to you and with 4000 people that may read it is a bit of a loose situation. But then again, I never wanted a win situation.

First I have to tell you that you are lying about yourself to us. No human being goes from 8 to 80 without the steps in between. What am I saying? Well, it's human nature to swap affections instead of going into a blank state. So, if you were a heavy Christian (not sure what that means) then you must be something else. And atheism is...not.
God.
God is all. God is our nature. God IS to explain why we are here.
You don't agree? Fine.
But why does it fascinate you? I mean, it's so old, boring, senseless, impossible, unicorns are much cooler, right?
Why do you came back for answers?
You know why? Because men without a lord have no value (put your fingers down, I'm not finished), because men without a leader cannot be nations, and because men without God cannot understand.
Ask yourself, why did I abandon Jesus? He didn't abandon you.
Who do you call when your mother is sick to death?
Einstein? Dr.House?
You call God because you want her to be in peace.
I wrote this once on a thread similar to this one. It's not my words :
   "Church is the only place somebody talks to me,
    and I don't have to answer back."
                  Charles de Gaulle  

Maybe God was all in Jesus head you say. But you know there were many more prophets and other Gods and I know you've studied enough to understand that putting all religions on a basket you can come up with a similar if not equal outcome.
The reason men wrote and follow their God and their Jesus is very clear to me. It's called Love.

Why do you think God as a plan for YOU?
What have you done to deserve it?

Tuomas: again I advise you to search deeply into the subject and do read what I wrote.
              How many gospels have you read? Do you know how many there are? Do you understand that the Bible is based solely on 3 gospels?
              About someone living 900 years, can't you see it's a way to convince people he was really, really, old?
              Why can't you see the Bible is not a documentary?

[Tuomas]

Oh I'm not questioning that, I'm just speculating. You don't have to prove anything to me, I'm on your side on this... I think. I mean, I never thought it was comparable to a schoolbook, and all the stories were told in a way not literally. I just wanted to point out, that you must understand how it's hard for people to see it the otther way as well I mean, there are way too many people who take the bible literally in most occasions.

[miguel]

Okay, sorry about that Tuomas.
But you've touched a critical point here, 'how to read the Bible'?
Maybe people would stop killing if they took the right approach.

[Phemar]

Maybe God should have given us a disclaimer in the first few pages...

[Nacho]

Honestly, people, do you believe that what I wrote as offensive for believers as, for example, what DG McPhee wrote about republicans?

I remember him quoting a dialog with a republican. We refered to him as "me" and to the republican as "idiot".

-me:"I believe this"
-idiot: "I think you are wrong!".

And nobody reacted... Why? Apparently religion creates that not only believers are offended of something with the same "provocative quality" as some other sentence which nobody cared about... but also non believers do! Weird... (Well... Actually DG McPhee was being 100 times more provocative than me, but I am assuming that he was JUST as offensive as me to give head of advantage to my critics...)

The conlcussion I receive is that the believers faith is weaker than anything else... You can tell to a football fan "your team is a complete shit" and he doesn't care... or at least he will reply you saying "Hey, yours is a shit even bigger!" You can tell someone "Obama sucks" and he doesn't care (Or at least he will reply: "Hey! At least he is better than Bush!"

They are convinced, no attack can make a scratch in their ideological shields. With believers that same attacks which did nothing to some other belives make a scratch... A deep one. Believers must evade the debate, and hide under the words of "respect my opinion!" to elude the trade of ideas.

And that is something that makes me make a smile of victory... ^_^

[Phemar]

Good point!

[Oliwerko]

I was really into the church and involved with about everything I could be...

Does that really mean you were a heavy christian? That's exaclty what I was talking about.
There's a huge difference between faith and belief - and being into church and being "involved".

Nacho, I don't want to mess in this, there's been enough mess already. But seriously, calling everyone who believes in God in the lines you did has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with communication in general. It was a harsh statement - and harsh statements are displeasing whatever the topic. If it doesn't seem harsh to you, listen to Andail.

[Nacho]

Okay.

[Phemar]

Does that really mean you were a heavy christian? That's exaclty what I was talking about.
There's a huge difference between faith and belief - and being into church and being "involved".

Haha I used to be so delusional I believed if I prayed hard enough God would actually move a mountain for me. I never tried it because I thought God wouldn't do it unless I had a really good reason

[Intense Degree]

Personally I don't see why it is illogical to believe in God.

It is apparent to me from my senses that the world around me exists. If something exists it is logical to consider that it was created by someone or something. I know that I cannot create an entire world and believe that no other human can and therefore it is logical to assume that it was something greater/more powerful than a human.

Scientific theories do not present a credible alternative for the world existing. Big bang, panspermia etc. may explain some things but do not provide any clues as to where everything came from in the first place (including matter, energy, pressure etc.) and what was there before. Furthermore, Big bang does not render the existence of God illogical in any way to my mind.

[Nacho]

It is apparent to me from my senses that the world around me exists. If something exists it is logical to consider that it was created by someone or something.

Who created God?

[Intense Degree]

God is eternal and was not created. To me it is more logical to assume that a great creating power (God) is eternal than the universe itself which has no power of its own.

Clearly something has got to be eternal as otherwise there must always have been something before it but eternity is a concept that my mind cannot realy grasp to be honest!

[Nacho]

He... I knew it! I knew that to the "Everything must be created!" has to be followed by an "Eeeer... Well... Everything except God..."

So, I must assume that you don't believe in Big Bang...

Something we have evidences of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

Evidences of God?

[Khris]

KhrisMUC, people get sick more times than we wanted isn't it? And cancer? What a terrible disease it is. You can blame it on God, or maybe stop and think that it wasn't His fault. Because you are confused as well. When a Christian tells someone something like 'It's God will' he's just reassuring and softening his pain. Psychologists do it with other words but it's the same.
There is also a theory that says that scientists went too far with medication and life expectancy exceeds what our bodies can take, our cells just get ill. When life expectancy was about 40 years old there are no known cases of cancer. No Pharaoh was ever found with cancer. Sure there were different diseases though.
All I can see is you picking on known easy debatable phrases Christians use.

Wow, wow, take a step back here please, will you? I've noticed this with several other believers; they simply can't wrap their head around the concept of not-believing-in-a-deity.
I don't blame anything on god, and neither am I going to think it wasn't his fault. Because I haven't seen any evidence for god, so I don't factor that hypothetical god into any issue I'm wondering about. Please let's be really clear on that: to me, he isn't part of the equasion, in any way.
My view is that cancer is caused by natural processes, sometimes external factors like smoking, sometimes "faulty" genes.
And how is it reassuring to hear that something terrible that has happened to me is "God's will"? Is it supposed to make me feel better that there's a cruel, supernatural, omnipotent being who will punish me just because he feels like it? Are you aware of the fact that people have gone insane precisely because of believing that?

About the medication stuff: of course I know that more people die of cancer nowadays than hundred years ago, but that's because we don't die of the flu anymore. We simply live long enough to get cancer because science and conventional medicine have doubled the life expectancy since 1900.
What happens when you ditch that and pray instead, hoping for god to cure your child? Your teenage daughter dies of diabetes and you get convicted of second-degree reckless homicide.

God is all. God is our nature. God IS to explain why we are here.

Heh, what makes you think that? God doesn't explain anything. This is the infamous "goddidit" approach, and it's a declaration of intellectual bankruptcy. Imagine, 500 years ago absolutely everybody had agreed that god created everything and that's it. We'd still be in the middle ages, intellectually, technologically and socially.

Apart from the whole "is there a god" business, the bible strikes me as one of the least convincing holy books ever. Everything in there about Jesus was copied from other creation myths. Plus it's full, literally packed, with astrological and astronomical references. Catholicism is simply based on sun worship, from top to bottom, left to right. Please watch the first third of the Zeitgeist movie, starting at 13:45. The rest is conspiracy theory stuff I don't care for, but the part about Jesus = sun doesn't erect wild theories, it's just stating facts anybody can check in any library.

[Adrian  ]

God is eternal and was not created. To me it is more logical to assume that a great creating power (God) is eternal than the universe itself which has no power of its own.

Clearly something has got to be eternal as otherwise there must always have been something before it but eternity is a concept that my mind cannot realy grasp to be honest!

To me, it's illogical to think that a silent watcher is shaping my life, in fact I'd call it paranoia, I believe I am the greatest influence on my life and in a way I believe I AM god in a very tangible sense.

[Intense Degree]

Nacho:

He... I knew it! I knew that to the "Everything must be created!" has to be followed by an "Eeeer... Well... Everything except God..."

If I believe in God then of course I believe he wasn't created! Presumably you wouldn't believe that the universe was created?

So, I must assume that you don't believe in Big Bang...

Why? Couldn't God have used this method to create the universe?

Something we have evidences of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

Evidences of God?

Evidence of electromagnetic radiation!

Slifin:

To me, it's illogical to think that a silent watcher is shaping my life, in fact I'd call it paranoia, I believe I am the greatest influence on my life and in a way I believe I AM god in a very tangible sense.

If there is a silent watcher why would he be shaping your life? I don't doubt for a minute that, as you say, you are the greatest influence on your own life and therefore, in a way, you are your own god. (That is not intended as some kind of attack on you by the way) but that doesn't render belief in God illogical.

[Phemar]

Well, hate to break it to you guys... but I am actually God. You can worship me if you want, but frankly I'd just prefer 10 bucks in the mail.

Jesus says hey, and to chill out on all the asking for forgiveness stuff. Anyway it's been long since I last spoke to humanity so, er... I'll just proclaim every Tuesday free ice-cream day.

[Khris]

I wouldn't call it illogical but baseless. Yes, baseless. There's no evidence and using god as an explanation isn't fulfilling in the slightest.
How about: we don't know yet, me might never find out, but let's get to work!
Science is progress, religion is the opposite.

[Adrian  ]

If there is a silent watcher why would he be shaping your life?

my reference here is Evan almighty, one of the finest religious scriptures if I do say so myself - where god approaches noah's wife and says "when people pray for x, do you think god gives them x, or does he give them the opportunity to be x"

Implying that god is perceived to take an active role, I have religious associates who regularly ask god to guide them etc, why would that be the case if they were told to expect a passive god. 

It's my perception that god is believed to help shape people's lives through subtle means. Do correct me if I am wrong but I can't imagine an impassive god being a very good symbol of hope.

but that doesn't render belief in God illogical.

It's very simple, I'm tangible, god isn't.

[Intense Degree]

Slifin:

Implying that god is perceived to take an active role, I have religious associates who regularly ask god to guide them etc, why would that be the case if they were told to expect a passive god.

If he is only a "watcher" then that would limit his activity!

I would suggest that the difference here is in the asking. If men have free will (which I would say that they do for the most part, although not always consequence free!) then they can choose to ignore God if they want. Likewise God is free to act as he will, but in an absolute sense.

Khris:

I wouldn't call it illogical but baseless. Yes, baseless. There's no evidence and using god as an explanation isn't fulfilling in the slightest.
How about: we don't know yet, me might never find out, but let's get to work!
Science is progress, religion is the opposite.

I would not say baseless (apologies if this sounds like semantics but I like the considered way you have used the word). Clearly there is no cut and dried proof either of us can offer the other that there is or isn't a God. However I would say that the very existence of matter, the earth and indeed your very good self is evidence that there is a God who creates. I am sure you may disagree but, once again, it cannot be stated with absolute certainty that I am wrong in such a statement which at least gives the possibility I am right. (No doubt almost but not quite 0 in your opinion! ). It is not therefore demonstrably baseless.

Science is progressing and has enabled us to progress in some ways but is not in itself progress. Things that are possible now have always been possible if only mankind had known/underdstood how. Therefore it deals with absolute truths (insofar as we can ascertain them) which is the same as God does (but not always religion).