More Panel Ratings Discussion

[Le Woltaire]

Maybe it's the result of the two cup rating of Cosmos Quest 3...?
The review panel is getting harder and harder...
If I would read this comment I guess I would have a reason to be turned a bit down.

"A lot of effort has gone into this project, with original graphics and audio throughout, and largely solid technical execution.

But a leaden pace, bland characters, little indication on where the screen exits are located until you pixel-hunt your way over them, and only the barest bones of an engaging plot, reduce playing the third entry in this ongoing sci-fi series to a chore. The graphics are consistent, and the music is pleasant, but the lack of direction and ponderous gameplay are a severe hindrance.

Some puzzles seem arbitrary and, in a number of cases, confusing."

[Dualnames]

Maybe it's the result of the two cup rating of Cosmos Quest 3...?
The review panel is getting harder and harder...
If I would read this comment I guess I would have a reason to be turned a bit down.

"A lot of effort has gone into this project, with original graphics and audio throughout, and largely solid technical execution.

But a leaden pace, bland characters, little indication on where the screen exits are located until you pixel-hunt your way over them, and only the barest bones of an engaging plot, reduce playing the third entry in this ongoing sci-fi series to a chore. The graphics are consistent, and the music is pleasant, but the lack of direction and ponderous gameplay are a severe hindrance.

Some puzzles seem arbitrary and, in a number of cases, confusing."

It's one thin being hard, and one thing not being so hard. A game downloaded and praised by so many people to be the best ever to get a two cup rating is the epitomy of not being objective. A game though good, but not really that good, should be fine with a 2 cup. "Worth a try"

[LimpingFish]

If you view that one comment as reason enough to remove a game that many people seem to have enjoyed, then exposing your games to public consumption may not be for you.

Removing games from the database is an insult to the people who took the time to come back and comment on it, and to the panel member who took the time to play through it and rate it. It's the equivalent of a child taking their ball and going home because their team is losing.

Le Woltaire, you quote the panel comment, but you don't point out just what part of it you disagree with; as though the injustice lies in it's very existence?

The panel is not unfairly "hard" and the panel is not swayed by public opinion; positive or negative.

If people can't accept the possibility that their game may experience some negative feedback, they shouldn't add it to the database.

Otherwise, I really don't know why the fuck we bother.

EDIT: Apologies for the language. Dualnames, on reading your post again, I'm not sure if you're condemning the rating...or supporting it?

[Le Woltaire]

I just think it's a pitty to loose an active developer...
We already lost Alkis this year and since Harg was already developing Cosmos Quest IV I believe that this is now going to be cancelled or similar. I think every independent developer is needed in the scene.

I am not complaining about the panels opinion and maybe the panel is right (I just played the demo of CQIII).
I am just pointing out a possible reason for the developers action.

Sure it is not really the action of an adult to delete all the games from a database.
On the other side I can understand the disappointment and try to put myself in the position of the author.
I just wrote him an email and asked if everything is OK...

It might also be possible that he got problems with the commercial release.
Maybe copyright issues or tax related stuff with the collection office.
This is something that many developers forget when they quickly put a low cost single game into the market...

Hell, who knows... maybe he even has a gigantic crisis and is commiting suicide in this moment...

[LimpingFish]

Fair enough, but an explanation beforehand from the author wouldn't be asking too much. He took the time to delete his games and alter his contributions to this thread, so why not leave a short note?

I too can understand an author's disappointment when a game doesn't perform as they may have hoped, but I also understand that not everybody is going to be satisfied with a game and that negative critiques are part and parcel of releasing your game to public opinion. We take the good with the bad, and we, hopefully, respond to it in a constructive way.

If Harg pulled his games because of the panel comment, then he's sending the message that the panel is at fault for voicing it's opinion. Therefore, by default, anybody who doesn't like his games is in the wrong.

That can't be a healthy mindset when developing games for other people to play, can it?

Losing any developer is sad, I agree. But a developer who voluntarily removes themselves is a different matter...

[IndieBoy]

Even though I haven't played the games, I have faith that Harg had good and sensible reasons for removing the games. Once you post a game in the database it starts to belong to the community in some form and it is very sad when games are removed for whatever reason. I have faith that maybe even better versions of the games or completely different more awesome games are going to appear in the future from him.

I really hope Harg will explain himself or at least show himself in the forums again. If not I'm sure he appreciates the time people have invested into playing his games.

@ Le Woltaire
Why don't you start a thread about how new and "inexperienced" developers and what they must go through to post their first game. I'm sure it would be of great help to others and I would be most willing to discuss the topic, but not really in this thread.
(I'm trying my best to not to sound like a moderator hehe)

[Grim]

Why don't you start a thread about how new and "inexperienced" developers and what they must go through to post their first game. I'm sure it would be of great help to others and I would be most willing to discuss the topic, but not really in this thread.
(I'm trying my best to not to sound like a moderator hehe)

Not a bad idea. I would have a thing or two to say about it and I'd be more than happy to share my experience of dealing with publishers, critics and everything else involved:)

I'm really perplexed by the whole situation here... Escpecially that someone has mentioned tax problems and I just imagined something like this happening to me ( if this is what actually happened)...  That sent a shiver down my spine...
Then someone mentioned suicide...
  I think we should assume that Harg, a character deeply rooted in science fiction genre, has been abducted by aliens, then forced to remove his games from the database, as he got too close to the uncomfortable truth they tried to hide. This is the only explanation fair to him...

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Sour grapes.  I'll comment further if/when Harg bothers to explain himself.  He's 33 and certainly old enough not to be throwing tantrums over a difference of opinion, that's for sure.

[Le Woltaire]

@ Le Woltaire
Why don't you start a thread about how new and "inexperienced" developers and what they must go through to post their first game. I'm sure it would be of great help to others and I would be most willing to discuss the topic, but not really in this thread.
(I'm trying my best to not to sound like a moderator hehe)

I am not really the right guy to give advice to unexperienced commercial developers, because I am not commercial.
However, if you need advice, then this is a very intelligent manifesto for the small developer:
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/SorenAndersen/20100106/4025/Hobbyist_Game_Developer_Manifesto.php

I'm really perplexed by the whole situation here... Escpecially that someone has mentioned tax problems and I just imagined something like this happening to me ( if this is what actually happened)...  That sent a shiver down my spine...
Then someone mentioned suicide...

About taxes: In my country that has one of the most complex tax systems of the world and the highest tax rates in Europe becoming an independent commercial game developer means suicide because he will have to pay more than he earns.

They quickly make estimations about your possible incomings and ask you 20.000 â,¬ without reason in advance. At the end of the year they might give you something back if you can proof that you don't earn so much, but still you had to pay a lot of money during the year...  This destroys most of commercial newbees in any sector.



Ok, I got a part of an explanation from Harg:

"If (AGS_Panel_Review_Number_Of_Persons < 2) {
    I_Dont_Want_To_Be_Part_Of_This_Community = true;
    Delete_The_Games();
} else {
    My_Games_Are_Really_Bad = true;
    Delete_The_Games();

}"



So the questions that come out of this:

How many persons are in the AGS Panel?
How many are needed to show up the blue cups?
Is it just one opinion that is needed?
Who is the AGS panel?

Should we make a thread about this?

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

How many persons are in the AGS Panel?

It's not a relevant question to this issue (and his response was extremely childish, anyway) but there are considerably more than 2 members on the panel.

How many are needed to show up the blue cups?

1, just like most review sites.  This will not change.

Is it just one opinion that is needed?

While the judges are apt to discuss and explain their ratings to each other, ultimately it is one opinion and that is all that's necessary for a subjective rating.  The important word you listed yourself: opinion.

Who is the AGS panel?

For the sake of argument I am on the panel.  Other members are anonymous at their discretion and ratings will always be anonymous.

Should we make a thread about this?

Not another thread, please no.  There have been a few already.

[Helme]

Didn't the panel want to make their work more transperent with some sort of "This is how the panel rates and reviews games"-thread?
If some questions are frequently asked a F.A.Q. would be a good idea.

[ThreeOhFour]

Helme, looks like they're discussing it.

My_Games_Are_Really_Bad = true;
     Delete_The_Games();

As for this, well...

2 Cups   A reasonable game, worth a try
Feel free to disagree with the panel's rating, and please don't get offended if you think your game has been under-rated!

Honestly, after the level headed way in which the McCarthy rating was dealt with in the end, it disappoints me to see something like this. It's obvious that the panel ratings are open to discussion, and it's a bit saddening to see a knee jerk reaction like this. (No offence intended towards Harg)

[Iliya]

The structure of the things should be:

                 AGS
         GAME  GAME
REVIEW REVIEW REVIEW

Now the things are like this:

                 AGS
         REVIEW REVIEW
GAME GAME GAME GAME GAME

Or with other words: AGS PANEL is trying to tell us how we have to write the games. No way! The indie game creator is an artist not an engenier!

[ThreeOhFour]

Or with other words: AGS PANEL is trying to tell us how we have to write the games. No way! The indie game creator is an artist not an engenier!

I guess opinions like this are why the panel puts the "Feel free to disagree with the panel's rating, and please don't get offended if you think your game has been under-rated!" statement that I just quoted on the ratings breakdown.

The panel are not the police. They don't make laws and say "You must make your game like this!". You're entitled to disagree with them, and surely it's more appropriate to send a message to one of the members of the panel (some are anonymous, granted, but ProgZ and LimpingFish have always been quite open about the fact that they're on the panel) and discuss it with them, instead of deleting your hard work?

I can understand being upset at getting such a rating after spending your free time making a game you truly believe in. I can't understand favoring the course of action you took over discussing the issue.

It's clear that you have some fans that really believe in what you're doing - focus on the positives. I hate to see developers getting discouraged, especially when it's from something like this.

[Helme]

Helme, looks like they're discussing it.

Thanks. I couldn't keep track where the discussion ended.

Or with other words: AGS PANEL is trying to tell us how we have to write the games. No way! The indie game creator is an artist not an engenier!

I think I overrated the influcence of the panel reviews a few weeks ago. Since 2 of my games have a panel review by now, there hasn't changed much about the dls or the feedback I get for them even with one review that is not very flattering.

[------]

I think CQ III is totally underrated (but it's my opinion). The progression since the previous game and the current one is evident but the rating is worse. Ok, I can understand that the reviewer don't like the game but  I can't find the logic of the poor rating.

The AGS panel rating is  is one of the most important elements for the majority of the people to select a game. I think there's a lot of work in CQ III and the results are very good.

There're enough critiques and suggestions recently to the panel but I don't see that the members of the AGS Panel are receptive to them. It seems that we are the last link of the chain (personal opinion, maybe not real).

[Essex]

Well I always liked the idea of a panel. And in most cases I agreed with it. But I just was confused by the fact, that panel ratings changed.

I mean: Earl Bobby 2 -which is one of my favourite games- got 5 cups.
One year later it had 4 cups.
Same with other games.

Why do they change the rating?
That is not a serious method.

It is like you say: "I think my steak tastes great.
Oh I remember that steak it tasted terrible."

"I want a glass of milk.
Stop I wanted a coffee..."

[Dualnames]

Dualnames, on reading your post again, I'm not sure if you're condemning the rating...or supporting it?

I'm supporting it. I have to say, I did not see the comment if there was any by the AGS Panel. So I don't have an opinion on this. But on my side of this community, I have made several games. And they all got 2 cups and 2 of them got 1 cup. And the result was reasonable and I completely agree with it. Hell, even the posts of the people who played my games said that they lacked something. And they were right. I've removed games from the database, but not because I didn't like the comments, but because I lost the working links of the download. I feel the panel should keep to their ratings at all costs, and if the author is minded by all this he should contact a moderator, and question the reasons of the bad rating/comment.

1.How many persons are in the AGS Panel?
2.How many are needed to show up the blue cups?
3.Is it just one opinion that is needed?
4.Who is the AGS panel?
5.Should we make a thread about this?

1,2,3,4,5: No/No need to know.

I think if we know who are the guys posting in the panel ratings, then we lose the grip of this. Then we lose this community, and if we reach into a point where we only appreciate those who are praising us,

for if they gave you a 4 cup rating and it was unjust, you wouldn't remove the games from the database would you Harg?!

then I fear we'll have a whole community of shitheads.
As for Calin, indeed it's the only part of the panel I find unjust. But people it's just one occasion! Doesn't mean because one game got rated low, we should question all games.

I think CQ III is totally underrated (but it's my opinion). The progression since the previous game and the current one is evident but the rating is worse. Ok, I can understand that the reviewer don't like the game but  I can't find the logic of the poor rating.

The AGS panel rating is  is one of the most important elements for the majority of the people to select a game. I think there's a lot of work in CQ III and the results are very good.

They're enough critiques and suggestions recently to the panel but I don't see that the members of the AGS Panel are receptive to them. It seems that we are the last link of the chain (personal opinion, maybe not real).

Progress has nothing to do with a game ending up good. Nothing. Nothing at all. The question everyone should be asking is this:

Is the game enjoyable?

If:
Yes, totally, I could replay it: 5 cups
Yes, it is really worth it: 4 cups
Yes, it can be enjoyable: 3 cups
Yes, if you get past its problems: 2 cups
No, not really: 1 cup

Doesn't matter if the graphics are great, if the atmosphere is great, if the music is great (I've had this once), but the gameplay is bad. The interface is a problem. The dialog makes no sense.

[------]

Progress is important because it  turns the rating into something illogical. If the last game (CQ2) has 3 cups and the next game is better, the 2 cups rating isn't logic.

And well, for me the game is more enjoyable than the other Cosmos Quest. Ok, it's my opinion and the AGS reviewer has other opinion but with this system, the opinion of ONE person is more important than the opinion of a lot of people.

Why the user rating needs five votes to be showed? Why the AGS review is made for a one person and has more importance than the user ratings? That's the key, for me.

[Iliya]

One man review is a madness. Try to watch 3 great moves one after another. The first will be great, the other 2 - NOT so great.

How 1 man can decide which game is good and which is bad when he has a list of games to review and he has to do it quickly (because this website needs content to be more popular). In this case, for me, every game will be boring...

But like Nergal said - the games and authors here are the last peace of the chain.