Critical feedback wanted on some space backgrounds

[Sythe]

I COULD convert it to high res...yes...but WHY would I want to?!

Because outside the cliques on this forum, every modern game is made at resolutions at or exceeding 1024x768.

I'm certainly not very good at digital art, but the last thing I'd want to do is use low resolutions as a crutch to hide my inabilities.

I have taken some of the good advice offered in this forum (with respect to the layout and style of my backgrounds). The rest appears to be "you should change to low res, despite being 80% finished at a higher resolution because X" where X is any one of a million subjective peer-group preferences.

Also, as we've said, it's completely up to you, but we're just doing what you asked, we're being critical. Also, harsh as it may be, why not take some of the advice? You might be surprised at what you can make.

I've had some good critical feedback, which I highly respect, and some snippy stuff which I don't care for at all.

But if someone were to turn away from what they actually wanted to make because a few senior forum members bullied them into it, then I would have no respect for that person. Have some integrity and make what you want to make.

To throw another tire on this bonfire; I'm making my game in low resolution because it's easier to draw backgrounds and far easier to animate. Once I know what I'm doing here, I'll move up to high resolution. It's a learning curve, you don't run before you can walk.

I considered this also. But the low resolution stuff is pixel art, which is a separate skill to high resolution / general art stuff. If you are happy / want to learn how to make games in the retro-feel early 90's genre, then I say go for it.

[Andail]

It's not that low-res is better than hi-res, it's just that the bigger you make the background, the more you have to fill it with good art.
Every mistake you make in low-res will be magnified in hi-res and become much more flagrant.

There is a good principle that says that you should always do the most of whatever media and restrictions you've got, before you change to something bigger and more advanced. It's like when a beginner wants to start making film, and immediately buys a $5000 camera because it's supposedly the best, but since he can't handle it, the results end up worse than with a really cheap budget camera.

Either way, it seems that you've made up your mind already, so we can only wish you good luck with your endeavours

[Khris]

I'm positive it's useless to try and convince you to change to a lower resolution.
Still, you don't seem to get what we're saying, so I'll try and elaborate on a few points:

Whether or not a background is appealing doesn't have anything to do with the resolution (unless of course all lo-res art is dismissed as not modern from the start). There's great art and shitty art in both camps all over the internet.

To put it bluntly: that MI concept art will look great as a hi-res game background, but yours don't because you aren't an experienced enough artist yet. So because it is indeed easier to produce appealing lo-res art, that's what we suggested to a beginner like yourself.
It's like building a nice sand castle on two square feet of sand as opposed to ten; the latter will take more time, talent and practice.

If you're satisfied with your backgrounds, then by all means go ahead and continue doing them like that.
But don't post them here and get all upset if people do anything else except praising them.

Edit: heh, anyone else got an analogy?
Btw, you don't need to be a pixel artist to use lo-res, just look at Ben304's backgrounds. Beautiful, lo-res, but not pixel art.

[LRH]

Yes, Khris. This is what I was trying to imply as well. I certainly wasn't trying to "bully" you, so much as trying to help you. I just think low-res would help in such a project, and like everyone else has said, if you want to continue on with high-res, nobody will stop you. It's just sooooo much harder to pull off well, I've seen very few AGS games above 640x480 that look really good. Not saying you aren't capable of it, but I just ask: why NOT go low res?

Even with your example turning my low-res to high res, just look at how much work that would need in order to look detailed and great. A lot.

[Sythe]

It's not that low-res is better than hi-res, it's just that the bigger you make the background, the more you have to fill it with good art.
Every mistake you make in low-res will be magnified in hi-res and become much more flagrant.

There is a good principle that says that you should always do the most of whatever media and restrictions you've got, before you change to something bigger and more advanced. It's like when a beginner wants to start making film, and immediately buys a $5000 camera because it's supposedly the best, but since he can't handle it, the results end up worse than with a really cheap budget camera.

Either way, it seems that you've made up your mind already, so we can only wish you good luck with your endeavours

Thanks for the kind words.

In your camera analogy, because I already have an almost finished high-res game, it would be like purchasing a $50 camera when I have a $5000 camera that I already own.

But don't post them here and get all upset if people do anything else except praising them.

Of course this is not what I was doing. And that you'd post this comment in full understanding of the preceding conversation is bullying, even if no one wants to admit it. Critical feedback would be: "These backgrounds are sort of plain, here's how you can add some detail to make them more interesting." or "For your next game you might consider using a lower resolution, because this tends to be less work." or "Darkly lit scenes are tricky to draw well, here's some tips on how to improve this one."

Not: "You can create a game by pasting photos of furniture in a line art room, using a double-sized, pixelated Roger as player character. But it WILL look like shit (see Other Worlds for a perfect example). Personally, I won't even try such a game, no matter how ingenious the puzzles or story are said to be."

Which is basically calling my game shit before you've seen it and insinuating that I've put no work into it because I refuse to bend to your expectations.

[Chicky]

*cough*

I have near thirty backgrounds made for this game, that's triple any other project i've failed to make.

Honestly, if you're going for a simple style then a Low res + small palette = more backgrounds. Pixels just look better because they follow a strict form, you proved that with the ugly vector mess you made of Domithan's background.

Plus if you're going to mash together google images they look much better in 320.

screw it, here's a quick 2 minute edit to prove my point.



That's just a resize, change of hue, tweak of brightness and contrast and then setting the mode to indexed colour with a Local(perceptual) palette. *edit- Made the floor darker and added some foreground, it's a lot easier to change bits when its in a low res.

[Goldfish]

It's not that low-res is better than hi-res, it's just that the bigger you make the background, the more you have to fill it with good art.
Every mistake you make in low-res will be magnified in hi-res and become much more flagrant.

There is a good principle that says that you should always do the most of whatever media and restrictions you've got, before you change to something bigger and more advanced. It's like when a beginner wants to start making film, and immediately buys a $5000 camera because it's supposedly the best, but since he can't handle it, the results end up worse than with a really cheap budget camera.

Either way, it seems that you've made up your mind already, so we can only wish you good luck with your endeavours

Thanks for the kind words.

In your camera analogy, because I already have an almost finished high-res game, it would be like purchasing a $50 camera when I have a $5000 camera that I already own.

But don't post them here and get all upset if people do anything else except praising them.

Of course this is not what I was doing. And that you'd post this comment in full understanding of the preceding conversation is bullying, even if no one wants to admit it. Critical feedback would be: "These backgrounds are sort of plain, here's how you can add some detail to make them more interesting." or "For your next game you might consider using a lower resolution, because this tends to be less work." or "Darkly lit scenes are tricky to draw well, here's some tips on how to improve this one."

Not: "You can create a game by pasting photos of furniture in a line art room, using a double-sized, pixelated Roger as player character. But it WILL look like shit (see Other Worlds for a perfect example). Personally, I won't even try such a game, no matter how ingenious the puzzles or story are said to be."

Which is basically calling my game shit before you've seen it and insinuating that I've put no work into it because I refuse to bend to your expectations.

I agree with you one hundred percent on all counts Sythe.

Now if I may, I WOULD like to offer critique.

Leaving aside the many absurd canards attempting to avoid your spot-on characterisations, I would suggest you soften at the borders of your screens, and darken too, coming into a sharp focus in the centre of each screen where you want attention drawn. Also if the protagonists are furries etc. then maybe consider keeping the world they are in a little bit whimsical... The control surfaces also if they are going to be frankensteined in, I think maybe consider matching the line width used in the original sections of the screens to the apparent line width in the photoshopped bits, to make it a little less jarring.

Finally the somewhat watercolored and / or rotoscoped effect as in the alien world is also going to be a little jarring if the interiors of the artificial environments are going to be clean lines and negative space (in the artistic sense).

Maybe some textures on the expanses of space. Consider the emotions to evoke in each screen.

I sincerely mean my critique to be helpful, and if you feel I've colossally missed your point please say so.

[Sythe]

I agree with you one hundred percent on all counts Sythe.

Now if I may, I WOULD like to offer critique.

Leaving aside the many absurd canards attempting to avoid your spot-on characterisations, I would suggest you soften at the borders of your screens, and darken too, coming into a sharp focus in the centre of each screen where you want attention drawn. Also if the protagonists are furries etc. then maybe consider keeping the world they are in a little bit whimsical... The control surfaces also if they are going to be frankensteined in, I think maybe consider matching the line width used in the original sections of the screens to the apparent line width in the photoshopped bits, to make it a little less jarring.

Finally the somewhat watercolored and / or rotoscoped effect as in the alien world is also going to be a little jarring if the interiors of the artificial environments are going to be clean lines and negative space (in the artistic sense).

Maybe some textures on the expanses of space. Consider the emotions to evoke in each screen.

I sincerely mean my critique to be helpful, and if you feel I've colossally missed your point please say so.

Great comments; many thanks.

I can definitely get a sense the negative space issue & the plainness of the backgrounds. I'm pretty confident I could make them better on paper, but digitally this is completely foreign to me. So I'll experiment with some art tools and try apply your suggestions, and post back here when I've got something new.

[Goldfish]

Cool! I can see what you are going for, I think. And with the normal sized pics you are using as opposed to the teeny tiny clunkers suggested, you really can go for grandeur, especially in the outdoor scenes. Looking forward to seeing more, amigo. Or amiga.

[Khris]

I didn't want to bully, I wanted to give you my honest opinion. That comment about what looks like shit wasn't addressed at your images, I just thought of the ugliest game graphics I have seen so far in the several years I've been visiting these forums. It was meant as an example to underline my main point, consistency. So I apologize for the misunderstanding.
I did say though that your character doesn't fit the style of your latest background.

I'm very quick to (mis)judge the effort that went into a picture, and I tend to be harsh, especially if very valid suggestions are brushed away with judgmental statements about "subjective peer-group preferences" and "cliques on this forum".
Apart from what preference the average forum member has, and disregarding the current resolution standard, your art would clearly profit from a lower resolution.

On to constructive criticism:
-If you can make them better on paper, why not draw them, scan them, vectorize, then color them?
You might also take a look at Google's SketchUp.
-Get rid of the gradients; use lines of different width to convey depth and detail.
-The vectorized image of the meteor's surface doesn't fit the ship's interior or the character; I'd suggest reducing the colors of the photo and retouching it by hand.
-Also think of the lighting conditions; a single light-source will produce hard drop shadows, multiple light sources will generate multiple fuzzy edges.
-Avoid filters whenever possible, they make every image look cheap. Subtle filters are okay for photographs, everything else will suffer.

[Sythe]

Cool! I can see what you are going for, I think. And with the normal sized pics you are using as opposed to the teeny tiny clunkers suggested, you really can go for grandeur, especially in the outdoor scenes. Looking forward to seeing more, amigo. Or amiga.

Hi Goldfish. I've had a go at eliminating some of the blandness with some texture and found a decent shading tool.  More criticisms / comments / advice very welcome:

I didn't want to bully, I wanted to give you my honest opinion. That comment about what looks like shit wasn't addressed at your images, I just thought of the ugliest game graphics I have seen so far in the several years I've been visiting these forums. It was meant as an example to underline my main point, consistency. So I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I did say though that your character doesn't fit the style of your latest background.

Apology accepted. And the character is a stand in. I intend to scan the high resolution paper versions of her at a later point.

On to constructive criticism:
-If you can make them better on paper, why not draw them, scan them, vectorize, then color them?

I have tried this previously, and it is immensely difficult. Sketches are not lineart, and there are very few decent methods I have come across to take them from many-lined graphite shaded masterpieces to an acceptable and consistent game graphic. If you have a good technique for doing this, please let me know!

You might also take a look at Google's SketchUp.

Already using it for my space ships, thanks good advice.

-Get rid of the gradients; use lines of different width to convey depth and detail.
-The vectorized image of the meteor's surface doesn't fit the ship's interior or the character; I'd suggest reducing the colors of the photo and retouching it by hand.
-Also think of the lighting conditions; a single light-source will produce hard drop shadows, multiple light sources will generate multiple fuzzy edges.
-Avoid filters whenever possible, they make every image look cheap. Subtle filters are okay for photographs, everything else will suffer.

All very good advice I will seek to incorporate. Thank you.

[Anian]

Hello, although I agree on some points with Chicky, I'd like to avoid that part off the discussion...so none of this is written with any "attitude" just what I've noticed:
- looks nicer now, you should redo the other room like this as well...or at least try and see how it turns out, same style gives better atmosphere overall, I think

- maybe more lights, like near the edges, would make it look more starshippy (don't think that's a real word, but you know what I mean ), I think there's too much dark
spots now, maybe something beween the two lightings. The windows look cool, might wanna try making it seem like some light is coming from them and lighting the floor a
bit

- the 2 doors on the right part of the top wall (actually not sure if the other is a door, so the two shapes that are not circual) have different perspective,
I know this is a 2point way perspective (at least I think it is) but still the doors are next to each other so they looked kind-of mishaped volumewise. Also at the far left, the panel
seems to suffer from perspective deformation, or actually lack of it

- also, and this is more of tip/request/plead, than a critique, could you resize the pics next time, make them a bit smaller (doesn't have to be miniature, maybe half the size),
it's much more easier to overview the whole scene that way. that would be much appreciated.

Hope that helps.

[Sythe]

Hello, although I agree on some points with Chicky, I'd like to avoid that part off the discussion...so none of this is written with any "attitude" just what I've noticed:
- looks nicer now, you should redo the other room like this as well...or at least try and see how it turns out, same style gives better atmosphere overall, I think

- maybe more lights, like near the edges, would make it look more starshippy (don't think that's a real word, but you know what I mean ), I think there's too much dark
spots now, maybe something beween the two lightings. The windows look cool, might wanna try making it seem like some light is coming from them and lighting the floor a
bit

I'm having a go at the other room now, but my graphics tablet just quit and won't come back to life.

Good suggestion about the light coming from the windows. Although it would only make sense for it to come from the front window (since there only a heavenly body to emit light from that direction.) On the other hand I could change the orientation of the ship in the story so there is a star near one of the rear windows. Although this would cause a long-shadow effect.

I could also try just pretending the windows emit light of their own accord, which might be cool.

- the 2 doors on the right part of the top wall (actually not sure if the other is a door, so the two shapes that are not circual) have different perspective,
I know this is a 2point way perspective (at least I think it is) but still the doors are next to each other so they looked kind-of mishaped volumewise. Also at the far left, the panel
seems to suffer from perspective deformation, or actually lack of it

Just to clear this up. The room is actually two rooms co-joined, where the player walks (and the view port transitions) from left to right. That's why there are two sets of two point perspective.
Oh and the second door on the right is actually an airlock, so it's structure is inverted to that of a normal door. I probably need to find a way to make that more obvious.

- also, and this is more of tip/request/plead, than a critique, could you resize the pics next time, make them a bit smaller (doesn't have to be miniature, maybe half the size),
it's much more easier to overview the whole scene that way. that would be much appreciated.

Ok good suggestion. I'll upload a thumbnail and provide a link to the full thing in future.

Thanks for your comments.

[Jim Reed]

Ok, I dig this. But why is the left upper part of the third window from the left pointy when no other window corners are?
I tried to do a complete re-edit(re-draw the whole scene), but I guess I suck at making curved things.
Hmm...as for the critique/argument/whatever...well do as you wish, it's a matter of taste/preference so it's irelevant(sp).
Heck, I'm doing my game in pure b&w without dihtering and nobody minds(320x240).

Paper drawing and scanning....I tried that. I draw, scan then trace it so I get lines of the same width. I tried vectoring it, but it didn't turn out as well as I wished it to be.
After a while I just sketched on paper, and then added precision/alignment while tracing it. Then just add colours and details.

[Goldfish]

I really like the new pic! The size issue on the forum though- these are big pics and it makes looking at them awkward...

Are you going to animated the background, or add an object animation for the planet, etc?

I'm asking because the style will make animating a little challenging.

If not, cool, just asking.

Are the kickboards / gaps for legs in front of the chairs and under the control console highly reflective, or is there a line across the floor there? If reflective, cool effect but you need to check the reflectivity angles. If it is just a line across the floor then definitely shade that in, darken it right down to convey that it is in shadow.

But it's looking nice imo.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Yes, please use the [img] tags or some other method (as I asked in my first post) to resize these images so they don't take up such massive space.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Yeah these images are so freakin big, they totally make viewing this page really awkward with my resolution (progz, can you resize them for him/her?).


Anyway, I gave a quick go at how I think you could greatly improve your backgrounds.  I lost interest after a little editing, but the majority of my points were made.



It was only a quick edit, so don't expect much.  I was meaning to put some display screens where you have that awkward 'dash' with lines running down it.

Notice how I totally removed that useless area to the right of the screen?  It was completely void of Anything of any interest, except two doors with odd perspective and what appeared to be a mattress nailed to a wall.

I cropped off all the bottom and left side of the image.  This is one reason why I had strongly suggested that the resolution you're using it too much for you.  Resolution should only improve detail, NOT make bigger walkable areas and tons of empty space.  Hopefully this will sink in, and you'll understand what I mean.

I was going to put in a display screen running about waist high along the back window.  I also removed the strong bubbly shape that window had, it had made the scene look as if the camera was using a distort lens to take the photo.

Your perspective was all over the place.  You should Google 1 point perspective.
The front dash/control panel was the worst area, I tried to correct it as best as possible.

I was also going to darken the chairs a bit, but as I said, I lost the energy to touch up everything.


Let me know if you still don't understand the gigantic walkable space, and bare background issue you had on your versions (this edit still has tons of emptiness issues).

[Sythe]

Ok, I dig this. But why is the left upper part of the third window from the left pointy when no other window corners are?

Fixed, thanks.

Paper drawing and scanning....I tried that. I draw, scan then trace it so I get lines of the same width. I tried vectoring it, but it didn't turn out as well as I wished it to be.
After a while I just sketched on paper, and then added precision/alignment while tracing it. Then just add colours and details.

Yeah that's what I've been doing also. But I would be very interested if anyone has better technique.

I really like the new pic! The size issue on the forum though- these are big pics and it makes looking at them awkward...

Are you going to animated the background, or add an object animation for the planet, etc?

I'm asking because the style will make animating a little challenging.

If not, cool, just asking.

Are the kickboards / gaps for legs in front of the chairs and under the control console highly reflective, or is there a line across the floor there? If reflective, cool effect but you need to check the reflectivity angles. If it is just a line across the floor then definitely shade that in, darken it right down to convey that it is in shadow.

But it's looking nice imo.

I wasn't planning to animate to any greater extent than a flashing light and twinkling stars, but I'm curious: what parts would you animate if you were constructing this scene?

Incidentally, thanks for spotting the kickboard thing. Fixed it now.

Yeah these images are so freakin big, they totally make viewing this page really awkward with my resolution (progz, can you resize them for him/her?).


Anyway, I gave a quick go at how I think you could greatly improve your backgrounds.  I lost interest after a little editing, but the majority of my points were made.



It was only a quick edit, so don't expect much.  I was meaning to put some display screens where you have that awkward 'dash' with lines running down it.

Definitely much respect for your skill and many thanks for taking the time.

Notice how I totally removed that useless area to the right of the screen?  It was completely void of Anything of any interest, except two doors with odd perspective and what appeared to be a mattress nailed to a wall.

The room is supposed to be two combined rooms like lucas arts used to do:


The separation might be completely unnecessary, but it seemed like an interesting experiment. I guess it also gives the impression that the ship is rather large, which is one I want to make.

I cropped off all the bottom and left side of the image.  This is one reason why I had strongly suggested that the resolution you're using it too much for you.  Resolution should only improve detail, NOT make bigger walkable areas and tons of empty space.  Hopefully this will sink in, and you'll understand what I mean.

I understood the first eight times. No offense, but I wish you would understand that I don't want to make a pixel art game.

I was going to put in a display screen running about waist high along the back window.  I also removed the strong bubbly shape that window had, it had made the scene look as if the camera was using a distort lens to take the photo.

Your perspective was all over the place.  You should Google 1 point perspective.
The front dash/control panel was the worst area, I tried to correct it as best as possible.

I was also going to darken the chairs a bit, but as I said, I lost the energy to touch up everything.


Let me know if you still don't understand the gigantic walkable space, and bare background issue you had on your versions (this edit still has tons of emptiness issues).

You don't need to insult my intelligence and ability to draw in every post. I appreciate the valid criticism and efforts you have donated. But I do not appreciate the much insulting pat on the head *that's called perspective*. If I were giving you programming help, being a software engineer by trade, I would not insult your intelligence by assuming you didn't know what a variable was then continue to labour the point seemingly without reference to the conversation which had quite definatively moved on.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Sorry, I can be a big douche at times.  I get frustrated when people post things in the critics lounge, then get angry for the criticism.

This for example:

I understood the first eight times. No offense, but I wish you would understand that I don't want to make a pixel art game.

You think I am insulting your intelligence by trying to drill into your head, that your issue with the large resolution has given you this gigantic canvas, which you fight to fill.  But then you answer it by saying that you're not trying to make a pixel art game.

Sythe.. buddy.. Sythe.. it's not about 'pixel art' or 'painted' or 'photo'.. it's about emptiness.  And I felt the emptiness was caused by the larger resolution--and it more than likely is.  If you can manage the large resolution, then by all means.  I have no issues with resolution.  It's emptiness, I loath it.
So take an axe to all that emptiness and fill it in with your crazy imagination, and make use of that tablet you have and go crazy my boy!

[Sythe]

You think I am insulting your intelligence by trying to drill into your head, that your issue with the large resolution has given you this gigantic canvas, which you fight to fill.  But then you answer it by saying that you're not trying to make a pixel art game.

I'm not fighting to fill it at all. I have a thousand things I would very much like to draw, but as I pointed out, actually moving from paper to digital is very difficult. If you can help, that would be great.

Sythe.. buddy.. Sythe.. it's not about 'pixel art' or 'painted' or 'photo'.. it's about emptiness.  And I felt the emptiness was caused by the larger resolution--and it more than likely is.  If you can manage the large resolution, then by all means.  I have no issues with resolution.  It's emptiness, I loath it.
So take an axe to all that emptiness and fill it in with your crazy imagination, and make use of that tablet you have and go crazy my boy!

I'm going to bow out of this resolution debate, because I don't think it's going to be productive.

But I agree with your sentiments about the volume or negative space problem. Any tips you can throw to me as I go would be most appreciated.

Incidentally here is a do-over of my second room, if you have any suggestions.


Tomorrow I'll go over all of the suggestions posted so far and see if I can improve it further.