perspective and interface can REALLY confuse some players

[Monsieur OUXX]

So there was I, loosely thinking about that Deluxe verison of discordance's "How they found silence" that we're going to make, with Piotr Obinsky.
To be really into what I was doing, I decided to play the game again, and this time I played it with my girlfriend, to know her opinion.

She actually had the mouse and I was barely guiding her.

The game's interface is super simple: Left-click = use, right-click = watch. The exits of each room are marked with big arrows drawn on the background. You don't even have to click on the actual exit of the room, just click on the arrow.
Also, there is strictly no perspective. The game is enirely in completely flat 2D. You exit rooms either to the left or to the right, or by clicking on the doors drawn in the background.

So you couldn't design something more straightforward.

And, to my great surprise...

...My girlfriend couldn't find her way in the game. She was always failing to spot WHERE she was, and was often clicking randomly to go from one room to another. She was confusing the rooms, not remembering what door she just took, etc.

And it's not like she's dumb, she's very close to finish Machinarium. Also, she actually WAS enjoying the game. She was immersed in the plot, but she was highly frustrated by the game design/graphics.

I think this is very interesting from a scientific perspective. It deals with the following topics:
- how does the brain match an imaginary scene to a real place? I was very aware that most of the places are at the top of the cliffs, even when they're not explicitely drawn. However, my girlfriend told me she felt like she was only walking along a random garden wall.
- the difference between the geometric representation of space by boys and a representation based on remarkable "hotspots" by girls. There, the graphics were so basic that the geometrical aspect took over, despite the many details (lamps, doors, flowers, etc.)!

And, from a game designer's perspective: Always think your design choices through, depending on your intended audience! It's lucky discordance made his game for a handful of nerdy guys (just kidding  )

[Anian]

I think it's women remember details and landmarks, but men have a better feeling of direction, something along those lines, right? Straight 2d view that isn't only moving forward (like Super Mario or similar) may become confusing, if you're not prepared to percieve spaces and locations in that way, combine that with unspecific (might even be "too abstract") details and I guess one might get lost.

Not to sound like a chauvinist, or generalise too much, but I found there is some truth to that women can do more things at once, but also that men often concecntrate harder on one thing they're doing.
So I think the process for a man might go "ok, I'm facing north, so if I go that way I'll be turning east..." while women might go "ok, this is the room with the book case, next one has a window....). Not saying that any thinking is better than the other, would be great to have both dominant.
And if I knew exactly how women were thinking, well I would be a lot happier in life.  

You mind showing a screenshot? Just to be a bit clearer on what you're talking about. I know there are screenshots on the forum, but an example of where she got lost (if it's too much trouble, you don't really have to)

[Monsieur OUXX]

I think it's women remember details and landmarks, but men have a better feeling of direction, something along those lines, right?

Yes, that's what I targeted when I wrote : "the difference between the geometric representation of space by boys and a representation based on remarkable "hotspots" by girls. There, the graphics were so basic that the geometrical aspect took over, despite the many details (lamps, doors, flowers, etc.)!"

You mind showing a screenshot?

Not to sound like a chauvinist

Yes, by the way, thank you for the great effort you put into not making sexist comments.
I'll sound like a nazi, but if anyone (and I say ANYONE) starts saying awful clichés about women, then I'll ask the moderator to lock the thread.

It's about game design, not about "haha, women can't drive and can't play video games designed by male no-lifes".

[TerranRich]

To be fair, that game does look like it'd be hard to navigate. I think the fact that it's uber-flat 2D causes that. If there was some 3D perspective, it wouldn't be so bad

So, basically, I don't blame her for getting confused.

[Radiant]

See also the Interface Hall Of Shame. Much of what they say does apply to adventure games, too.

[Monsieur OUXX]

To be fair, that game does look like it'd be hard to navigate.

Well, it didn't strike me as particularly hard. I'd even say ridiculously easy. Could you elaborate? What do you think looks confusing?

Much of what they say [in the Interface Hall of Shame] does apply to adventure games, too.

Yes, I'm very aware of the GUI paradigm, thanks to the classes I took at the University, that's part of the reasons why I started this thread. Good site, I could spend hours reading thos stupid messages :-)

[Gord10]

Honestly, I would spend a lot of time to discover that room transitions are done by clicking on cursors. I would think we need to walk character to the edge of the screen and the cursors show us the available locations.

[Crimson Wizard]

Actually, I do remember that game had couple of confusing room transitions. For example, when you exit main manor gates, character appears as if he walked from the right side, while he should appear right at the gates front.

[Monsieur OUXX]

Honestly, I would spend a lot of time to discover that room transitions are done by clicking on cursors. I would think we need to walk character to the edge of the screen and the cursors show us the available locations.

Is it the natural average player's behavior or is it an historical bias inherited from early point-n-clicks?

when you exit main manor gates, character appears as if he walked from the right side, while he should appear right at the gates front.

Good point, I didn't notice that at all.

[Chicky]

My girlfriends Pokemon would pwn yours.

[Gord10]

Is it the natural average player's behavior or is it an historical bias inherited from early point-n-clicks?

I don't think it's about the early point-n-click inheritence of mine, as I played a little of them. Still, I believe my behaviour is the result of my past gaming experiences: "If the player character is seen on the screen, he must be on the transition hotspot in order to transit" is like an unwritten rule in my mind. I suppose I am not alone in this.

[Monsieur OUXX]

"If the player character is seen on the screen, he must be on the transition hotspot in order to transit"

You must be right. The arrows would make sense only if the player coudn't move around. Here, the 2 systems compete.

[Stupot]

I haven't played this game yet, but it sounds like the type of game where I would have to start drawing a map or a plan of the house, because the direction of the 'camera' changes every time you enter a different room.

If I leave a room from a door on the right hand side of the screen, it feels natural that you should appear on the left hand side of the next screen.  And if you leave a room by the door at the top of the screen, it feels more natural to appear at the bottom of the next screen.

It's precisely because these games are in 2D that this is the case... especialy when they are really 2D, like the game in question, because there really is not even the suggestion of perspective.

If I was to design a game with a similar graphic style, I would start by drawing a birds-eye plan of the house, or game area, and I would pick a 'camera angle' and stick to it.  This way East is East and left is left and there can be no confusion.

Think of the old text adventures with no graphics at all.  You get an image in your mind and you know which way is which because you are told what lies to the north, and I should imagine 100% of you imagine North to be directly in front of you when you are playing text adventures...  I'd be interested to hear if anyone ever changes it up in the head and tries to picture the scene with North to their left or something.  I highly doubt it.

When adventures became "graphic", this convention remained.  Only the more graphically realistic* games can get away with playing about with camera angles.

*by 'realistic' I mean 'has a degree of perspective'.

[LRH]

I think the biggest issue may be the lack of depth. I'm not sure why, but I think if the rooms were given depth and more substance, they may start to feel more unique and identifiable.

[TerranRich]

As I explained in my post, it's the lack of depth that would confuse many players. When things are flattened to that extent, it's hard to navigate.

[LRH]

As I explained in my post, it's the lack of depth that would confuse many players. When things are flattened to that extent, it's hard to navigate.

Ah. Sorry. Didn't see that.

[Derrick Freeland]

I think there's a problem also with the color here (just based on the screen shots), the background, the main character and a lot of the objects are the same, or similar colors in a few of the game areas.  This would make it difficult to memorize visual landmarks and find your character on-screen.  Many of the shapes in these screen shots are also very similar (doors, bookshelves, etc..).  I think you need one or both of these aspects (shape & color) to be very strong to make a readable area in your game.

[Khris]

The flatness of the backgrounds greatly hinders the instinctive 3D auto mapping of the brain. The rooms aren't memorized as spots on a map but as chain links, with one chain's end occasionally being connected to the middle of another.
This is completely unnatural and consequently much harder to remember, especially to a brain completely untrained by Cave Story or similar games.

On the other hand:
When Lucasfan published the first episode of Maniac Mansion Mania which took place in Bernard's house, the rooms had depth but still had their exits all on the side and/or back wall(s). When people started designing new houses, questions arose concerning layout and realism. Pretty much everybody assumed that Lucasfan hadn't planned the house at all, putting doors and windows where he saw fit, connecting rooms in a random fashion. To our surprise, he produced a floor plan that showed all the rooms being perfectly accurate regarding door positions and general proportions.