Doctor Who Finale - what does everyone think?

[geork]

Hello everyone!

*SPOILERS WARNING!* This discussion will be about perhaps the most spoiler-ish episode in recent DW history - DO NOT read on if you have not seen Series 7 Episode 13! (or series 33, in real terms )

Firstly: apologies if this is the wrong place to post - it's the first one I've done outside of the tech area!

I don't know how big a deal Doctor Who is outside of the UK - but man, that Finale!

The construction of the episode itself seemed to be almost bang on this time (it's been somewhat lacking this series) - while things like "dream worlds" and psychic links felt a bit trope-y (especially the bloody enemies which didn't make any sense), it felt like it was all leading to the moment we discover, if not all, at least a substantial part of the Doctor's mystery (and Clara's!)

I also found the way Moffat decided to create and sustain this mystery of Clara, and it's final explanation, much, much better executed than the whole Rory/Amy/Riversong storyline. This time the mystery didn't require a lot of exposition, but just enough to still create an intriguing, and intellectually satisfying ending.

That said, the recurring motifs I found still didn't work - the leaf is significant sure, but it feels out of place - we already know the delicacy of the situation, we don't need it to be shoved in like that - that's what actors are there to convey!

Speaking of which, I don't know what everyone thinks about this (I've heard varying opinions) but i really think this series has let Matt Smith really create his own, unique Doctor. The light, comic side to him no longer feels like it is the dominant one, with his serious side coming into effect. It seems a shame that now that he's truly carved a Doctor's niche for himself, that he will leave so soon.

However, the new Doctor - John Hurt I believe - looks incredibly interesting to take Matt Smith's place - simply in the contrast between the two. Certainly at the end, he seemed to be the Doctor's ultimate dark side, or dark secret. I've looked around and seen rumors that John Hurt may actually be something along the lines of the 9th Doctor, making Matt Smith the 12th, and final, one. It will be interesting to see how they write in a darker, more overtly troubled Doctor, especially if that's set just before or after the Time War!

Anyway - I'm curious to see what other people think of that Finale (and future of DW) - apologies again if this is not the right place to post

[tierdal]

John Hurt is not the "new" doctor, well in timey wimey terms. He is the TRUE 9th, making matt smith the 12th instead of 11th. Hurt is that "secret" that was worth protecting, for something grand happened in that incarnation. so.. yea... headache

[Armageddon]

I missed the whole season, but Matt Smith left? WHAT!

[tierdal]

I missed the whole season, but Matt Smith left? WHAT!

no matt smith is renewed for season 8. Hurt is just going to be in the 50th anniversary with Temnant and Smith

[awakening]

However, the new Doctor - John Hurt I believe - looks incredibly interesting to take Matt Smith's place - simply in the contrast between the two. Certainly at the end, he seemed to be the Doctor's ultimate dark side, or dark secret. I've looked around and seen rumors that John Hurt may actually be something along the lines of the 9th Doctor, making Matt Smith the 12th, and final, one.

I'm not sure where you've got the idea that Matt is leaving... he's been renewed for Season 8.

I missed the whole season, but Matt Smith left? WHAT!

Matt Smith is still the Doctor.  John Hurt isn't the "new" Doctor.
Pretty sure he's going to represent 9 somehow, and the whole "dark side" thing is something to do with the Doctor ending the time war, effectively killing all the Time Lords and Daleks.
That makes his line at the end about that Doctor not committing to the name Doctor make sense I think.

Also, Time Lords have 12 regeneration's, meaning 13 lives in total.  So even if Matt Smith was 12 - he wouldn't be the final.
On top of that, there is some debate about the 12 regeneration rule.  It is actually unclear as to whether the 12 regeneration's is a biological limit in Time Lords or more of a rule imposed upon them - a law, which limits them to 12 regeneration's.
Certainly, in the Time War, Time Lords were given hundreds of regeneration's, in order to keep coming back and fighting.

It was an absolute cracker of an episode.
Fantastic.
So much better than last week's Nightmare In Silver, where I literally was willing the cybermen on, just for long enough so that they could kill that stupid girl Clara brought along.  The most annoying girl... EVER.

My 2 cents!

EDIT:

Another thought - he could have been a pre-Hartnell Doctor.  After all, 1 did assign himself the name of the Doctor right?  If that's the case, then 1 was actually 2, and 2 was 3, so on.
Shame we have to wait until November for the resolution!  haha

[geork]

I need to stop posting things at midnight

Ahh, I see - my mistake, I'd heard in places that Smith was planning on leaving - but I guess that will be after the end of the next series. That'll be good, since I still think he's managed to truly craft his own DW character within this series.

Well, this will make the November episode VERY interesting - unless something like this happens again. That would be very interesting if John Hurt's Doctor turned out to be pre-Hartnell, since he physically is the most similar (older actor age, that is). Although Hurt is presented as a Doctor who broke the promise of being 'The Doctor' - suggesting that he must have already named himself.

Still, it's a better theory than mine was for Clara - I thought she was the Doctor's daughter from the episode 'The Doctor's Daughter' (Tennant; Series 4 episode 6) come back to save the Doctor! Errm, Not my best moment

[CaptainD]

Did anyone else have the thought that possibly the John Hurt doctor might actually not be The Doctor but The Master, some kind of weird hybrid offshoot of the doctor who came into existence during the Time Wars?

(Probably just my weird brain... and the fact that this season of Dr Who is the first one I've watched since way back in the Colin Baker years!)

[sethrenoth]

man i have bearly seen season 8, i am waiting for it to show up on netflix

[Joseph DiPerla]

man i have bearly seen season 8, i am waiting for it to show up on netflix

You will have to wait a long time. They haven't even started filming it yet

Here are my thoughts... They did a bang up job with the finale. I am not too thrilled with Moffat as a writer. I think he is cocky and I liked Doctor Who because it was British. However, and I am allowed to say this because I am American..., I feel that Moffat Americanized D-WHO a bit too much and got rid of a lot of the camp. I get that he wants to draw a larger audience and it probably helped the show from not being cancelled, however, I miss the Eccleston/Tennant time frame. I like Matt Smith, he is a GREAT doctor. Definitely one of my favorites, although David Tennant is number one in my book. But I just am not enjoying it like I was for the first 4 series/seasons. I want Russel T Davies back.

Going back to the Finale. I think it was great. I was happy to see all 11 doctors and even the scene with the Doctor stealing the Tardis which was never televised before. It was great. Clara's story, while not my favorite of the companions story, had a great resolve. However, I am convinced that she is River Song in some form. Don't know how or why, but just too much of her feels like River Song to me. I like Clara. She has a fun personality and she cares for the Doctor, so she is very enjoyable to watch. She is no Donna Noble, but thats ok.

As for River, I think she gives balance to the Doctor and I am very happy they introduced her to the series. I wish there were more with David Tennant, but thats ok. I liked how they resolved the post-library episode of River, but I am sure we have not seen the last of pre-library episode River.

Though the episode was 15 minutes long, it went by very quickly. That means I enjoyed it. My wife and I watched it 3 times the day it was released on Amazon. (Watch the Amazon episode as the BBC America and Itunes version removes the David Tennant scene). The whisper men were ok. Everyone said they would become a new favorite. While they weren't that bad, they are no way near being my favorites. While the relationship between Madame Vastra, Jenny and Strax is an unusual one, I enjoy having them be in the series and would hope they keep having them. I wouldn't even mind a spin-off of the characters. My favorite parts of the finale all really had to do with Strax, from the part where he didn't realize that River was a woman, to the part where he said this:

Strax: Do not worry, we have the advantage, they are unarmed.
Jenny: So are we!
Strax: Do not divulge our military secrets!

Or something along those lines.. Either way, it was funny.

As for John Hurt.. My only gripe with the episode was this part: "INTRODUCING JOHN HURT AS THE DOCTOR". What was that text supposed to be about? We know he was the Doctor. It was unnecessary and seemed to be another trademark Moffat move. I will admit, in a non-campy way, Moffat is a brilliant writer and I love most of his stuff. I mean, have you watched Sherlock??? But he is just too cocky and tends to ruin or convert anything that wasn't his by Moffatizing it.

Back to John Hurt. To me, I believe he represents the 8th Doctor with Paul McGann. He is the only Doctor in which we do not know what happens throughout his history. In fact, he was only in the TV Movie after immediately regenerating from Sylvestor McCoy. I just think of the first few episodes with Christopher Eccleston where he has no idea what he looks like, hinting that he had just recently regenerated. I do not believe then that John Hurt represents the 9th Doctor. So there is a whole gap between 8 and 9. I believe Doctor 8 had at some point forsaken his name and destroyed the Time Lords/Daleks during the Time war. The time war hadn't begun until after the 8th Doctor had come to be and before the he regenerated into the 9th Doctor. People are talking about a possible regeneration between 8 and 9. Its possible, but I just don't think so. Matt Smith signed on to Series 8 and that will be his last most likely, having him regenerate into Doctor 13 then if John Hurt was the real 9 which would mean that the series could end or they would have to come up with a very good explanation for a 13th regeneration. Plus, take a look at the clothing that John Hurt was wearing. It was nearly identical to what Paul McGann wore in the tv Movie.