There's no such thing as objectivity (so I may as well be religious).

[Adeel]

Seriously Khris and I mean "SERIOUSLY". I had a inkling about your dislike for Muslims but before reading this, I never thought you were so much prejudiced in your opinion about the Muslims. Get a life! I wanted to say more on this topic (and answer you back) but I am refraining myself at the moment.

[Crimson Wizard]

Calin, the 6,000 years genealogy was a rule around the XVII century. Scholars did base their studies on the bible accounts and went back as far as 4004B.C. However, as with different ancient scripts, genealogy was many times "telescoped". Meaning that generations could be "skipped" while royal and important lineages would always feature. Recent studies point to a margin of 60,000-120,000 years of human kind.

I am curious, is it told how long Adam lived in Eden? Since iirc he was immortal there that could last for thousands of years? Maybe they even had dinosaurs there. Also, there's no indication that the first seven days of creation were 24 hrs as they are now, isn't it?

[Khris]

Adeel:
I was talking about specifically fundamentalists, not all Muslims, and nowhere did I imply, much less state that all Muslims are fundamentalists. I could have used any other religion in my example as well, but Islam directly contradicts Christianity, which is why I used it.
Don't get all worked up, READ properly before getting butthurt and making baseless accusations.
(Also, since you brought it up: Islam is just as wrong and baseless as Christianity, its worse though because apostasy is punishable by death, and this is still enforced today in some predominantly Muslim countries. At least Christians don't kill people who leave the religion any longer.)

Monkey:

I don't think it's impossible for people to be good or moral (etc.) in the absence of religion or faith. My argument is that my beliefs make me more good, moral, etc.

But what you're saying boils down to "as long as I'm afraid of hell, I'll behave better".
And you still think you have the better morals?

I don't believe that I said my morals were better than anyone else's. This is a problem - a lot of what is being perceived isn't what is being said, on both sides. I think this is in human nature to do this, but it doesn't exactly help anyone.

Please explain the fundamental difference between "my beliefs make me more moral" and "my morals are better".

Edit: added context to first quote.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Well, Khris, raising a kid is much more than that. It's the hardest job in the world and it really doesn't matter what religion the parents follow or don't follow. In fact, your assumptions are pretty much old-story, ignorant hate-rants against religious people are so gone this days that I think you're just trying to pick up a fight.

Are you seriously going down this road? Do you honestly think you "chose" the religion you believe? Hell no. It was chosen for you (unless you did actually find a religion your parents didn't believe, then kudos to you). These were the options you were given as a child:
A: Accept their beliefs as your own
B: Objectively disbelieve in their faith
C: Find another faith.
All of these options, except for A leave you with this: what if I'm wrong and go to "hell" and never see my family again!!?

I doubt you can say "I was just lucky my parents believed the best religion. If they believed in another religion, I would've found Christianity (etc) on my own!" Blah! Your argument hurts my brain that you can honestly believe it's something you chose (in the actual definition of: to choose). What happened to you as a child was a complete definition of: brainwashing (albeit, for the lack of a better word, it can sound a little harsh)

I was born into a Christian family. I had strongly believed in this faith that my parents passed down on me. I went to church. I went to bible camp. I did many religious things. And all my friends were heavily religious, even more than I.

Then around 12-14 years old I started to look at why I believed in Christianity and not one of the other numerous popular religions. My answer: because I was simply raised to believe it. So I started to question religion and why my parents believed it. Turns out their parents believed it too (no shit)! And guess what, they're parents did too! Odd that my entire family of aunts and uncles, parents and grandparents are all Christian. With your definition of how people choose faith, that's like winning the lottery isn't it? Since you know, you're given the option the moment you come out of the womb, what religion you want to believe. Oh wait, no, that's not right. You're taught what to believe by your parents and friends (brainwashed by the masses).

The biggest reason why I started to disbelieve my own faith: I don't trust humans enough. We are amazing at telling stories and we're unbelievably creative.
I cannot for the life of me trust that any of these religions are real because humans have had their hands all over them. Bending them, twisting them, to their own creative desires. Not to mention the fact that we're hardwired to believe there is something out there watching us - to keep us alert from potential predators that could be stalking us. But in today's predator free world, we're now likely to believe that the "watching" feeling is God, or whomever.

When I was at the point in my young age to fully believe that I do no have faith in any holy, divine powers, I actually told my mother in a conversation about God. I was expressing how I felt, I said, "There isn't a God". What did she do? Did she accept my beliefs and allow me to express myself? No. I was immediately grounded for a week, then yelled at and then scolded and scolded more, making me feel like I was the scum on the earth and that my own mother didn't love me because of the choice I made.

Luckily I didn't have a super die hard religious family who could've decided to bring me to numerous religious schools and whatnot trying to push that belief back in there, to basically re brainwash me in a forceful way.

Anyway, I don't dislike anyone for being religious. I'm also certainly not trying to make anyone become atheist. I don't want to force my beliefs onto others, I want to let them choose on their own (just like I would with my own children). I am just trying to get you to accept that it is, in all definition, a form of brainwashing. And that you in fact did not "choose" for yourself (unless, like I said, you actually found a religion your parents didn't pass on to you).

[Adeel]

Adeel:
I was talking about specifically fundamentalists, not all Muslims, and nowhere did I imply, much less state that all Muslims are fundamentalists. I could have used any other religion in my example as well, but Islam directly contradicts Christianity, which is why I used it.
Don't get all worked up, READ properly before getting butthurt and making baseless accusations.
(Also, since you brought it up: Islam is just as wrong and baseless as Christianity, its worse though because apostasy is punishable by death, and this is still enforced today in some predominantly Muslim countries. At least Christians don't kill people who leave the religion any longer.)

Well Khris, I am not one of those types who will be Butt-Hurt. I merely smiled just reading your and others' past comments. I think that what you are told by your gathering or what you read in some websites is your only basis of prejudiced thinking. BTW, I assure you that here are many agnostics living here who have not been punished to death.
    Islam isn't just about religion. It's a way of living the life. I am not too much practicing Muslim myself but I know what I am saying. Islam doesn't, hasn't and will not ever OPPOSE science. In fact, Quran invites people to ponder on the universe. There are many scientific facts described in Quran which were proved later. The formation of a baby in the womb, for example. All the things I have told you is not because I want you to convert to Islam. I am just saying that the religion of which you look from one side IS entirely different than you what you think or told it is. I'll explain this in detail later. For now, I am busy.

[Babar]

Are you seriously going down this road? Do you honestly think you "chose" the religion you believe? Hell no. It was chosen for you (unless you did actually find a religion your parents didn't believe, then kudos to you).

I'm not getting this. I'm pretty sure the number of converts in the world are significant enough that it isn't an abnormality that they chose the religion they believed. And especially considering those who drift towards non-theism or whatever. You went ahead and decided that the faith of your parents wasn't for you. You "chose" to go with something else. I'm sure you don't think of yourself as something special, many other people faced such choices, surely. If you add to that the number who investigated and felt that whatever they were born in sounds correct, it would be even more. Sure, it won't be the majority, and many people would probably continue living in the religion they were born in without question, but that doesn't mean that many didn't. Who is to know how miguel came about to where he is now?

All of these options, except for A leave you with this: what if I'm wrong and go to "hell" and never see my family again!!?

I'm not sure, and everyone's bringing up is different, but as far as me personally, and the people I know well enough to be able to answer for, "what if I am wrong and go to hell and never see my family again!!?" didn't seem to be a huge factor in childhood, and certainly not in adulthood. What would be the corollary of that? "Oh no, my parents are wrong, if I go to heaven, I'll never see them again, I better continue pretending to believe as they do!"?

Your argument hurts my brain that you can honestly believe it's something you chose (in the actual definition of: to choose). What happened to you as a child was a complete definition of: brainwashing (albeit, for the lack of a better word, it can sound a little harsh)

I suppose it could be labelled as that, but then, it'd be there along with political leanings, emphasis on sports/education/art (dependant on physical prowess as well, of course), and even complex moral choices. Heck, you could say that the very act of bringing up a child is "brainwashing" them. Now I've heard many people who say "I won't force my child, I will present all options, etc. etc. etc.", but I'm not sure if that is even possible. At the young, formative age, children seek to emulate their parents, and once they've seeped in all of that, it'll be with them for life, even if it is just in the background, unless they make a conscious decision to rebel against that.

Not to mention the fact that we're hardwired to believe there is something out there watching us - to keep us alert from potential predators that could be stalking us. But in today's predator free world, we're now likely to believe that the "watching" feeling is God, or whomever.

I think you mentioned this earlier (or maybe in another thread?) but I'm really not sure about the validity of this. Perhaps you are a sufferer of paranoia?
I do not usually feel like this. If it was as you say, surely religious belief would have increased after humanity progressed into today's predator free world (instead of staying the same or decreasing). I do not usually go around thinking someone is out there watching me...and while I believe in an omnipresent God, it is only when I really think about it that it enters my mind that "God is watching me!11!"

Again, I don't want it to feel like I'm attacking you or anything, it is just that a couple of your statements and understandings you presented didn't really match with me, personally, at least, and I don't think they're a "standard". I do not know, my family and surroundings weren't particularly religious or pushy in that sense..perhaps it was different for you growing up in such a religious atmosphere.


Oh no what have I done....WHY DID I LET MYSELF GET SUCKED INTO POSTING IN THIS THREAD......TRAPPPED NOW FOREVERRRRRRRRR

[kaput]

Susej dog.

That is all.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Not to mention the fact that we're hardwired to believe there is something out there watching us - to keep us alert from potential predators that could be stalking us. But in today's predator free world, we're now likely to believe that the "watching" feeling is God, or whomever.

I think you mentioned this earlier (or maybe in another thread?) but I'm really not sure about the validity of this. Perhaps you are a sufferer of paranoia?

Yes I posted this in the other thread. And no, I'm not paranoid. I mostly mentioned it because there was a study done on it recently. You can Google it.

You may not notice this feeling. It's not like you think someone is sitting outside your house looking in your windows. It can also be replaced with the feeling that you're simply not alone.

When you're alone in your room, driving down a lonely backroad, walking through the dark alleyway, you always have that underlying feeling that you're not alone or that someone is watching you. And today with camera tech being so popular, the feeling is even more pressing.

The part of the study wasn't that you believe it's God or a dead relative watching you, that's just my own personal belief that people have turned that feeling into a comfortable feeling of being watched over.

[Babar]

Are you talking about this study: http://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=11335 ?
Because my understanding of it (from admittedly a cursory investigation) seems to be that it is talking about situations where there would be people, but there is a level of uncertainty as to whether or not they are looking at you (the article uses the example of sunglasses or low-light conditions when you can't see where they are looking. I may be mistaken, but it seems to be more focused on the eyes and the mind and gaze perception (being able to tell if people who are there are looking at you), and the implicit assumption that if you can't tell with someone's eyes, you get the feeling they're looking at you (which IS something I admit I've occasionally experienced ), and makes no mention of being alone and having the background feeling of "someone is watching me!"

[Stupot]

That fact that the various different belief systems in the world are concentrated in different parts of the world, to me, is very strong evidence that none of them are right.


Ryan's story is oh-so familiar among people who call themselves atheists (as opposed to people who just don't believe in God and never give it much thought).
I went to a Church of England school, I was told that God exists and that people go to Heaven when they die.  In the same way, I was told that 5+5=10, that Neil Armstrong was the first man on the moon, or that light travels faster than sound.  I was also told that 'I' comes before 'E' except after 'C'. You eventually learn that not everything you are taught at a young age is necessarily actually 100% true.  After being told one Sunday School that I should love my Christian brothers and sisters more than my real sisters, which frightened and angered me, just a kid at the time, I put God on that list as well.  How dare you put me in this position! I love my sisters more than anyone else in the room, and if that means I'm going to Hell, then fucking fine by me.  That kind of thing is probably something they said in order to encourage people to bring their siblings along the following week.  Well, instead they lost a sheep.


I'm lucky in a way that my parents are not religious. My mum says she thinks she probably believes there is some kind of God, but she's never ever told me to agree with her. If she had been more religious, maybe me and my sisters would have been too, and then I would have probably kept going to Sunday School, safe in the knowledge that I could love my sisters as equal Christians.

Children are so vulnerable and impressionable.  And the priests, vicars and the Sunday school teachers are all very aware of this fact. I'm sure most of them are genuinely lovely, kind people who don't even realise that they are destroying a child's freedom to think for himself, but that is exactly what they are doing.  Religious parents who force their beliefs to their children are guilty of the same thing.  Again, they are obviously doing what they genuinely believe is right, after all they want their own child to be looked after by their god.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Again, they are obviously doing what they genuinely believe is right, after all they want their own child to be looked after by their god.

You know what. About 5 years ago when my brother had his first child, I believe a family member asked when he was going to baptize her. I can honestly admit that it felt as though I was punched in the gut with a sense of worry.. What if I'm wrong in my beliefs and when it came time to have my own children, what if I didn't baptize them? I was baptized when I was younger, so I started to wonder: should I just do it out of security, as a just in case thing?

It really made me question my choice in being atheist and if there are some things I should do out of security OR do I firmly believe in my choice of not doing it. It didn't take me long to decide that no, I won't do it, but I've never felt such a wave of panic and worry before - which is exactly why parents push their own religion onto their children.

[Stupot]

It's interesting isn't it.
My sisters and I were never christened as children (I was 'converted' at a christian camp probbaly slightly before the Sunday school incident), but my younger sister and her fiance wanted to christen their child and had to be christened themselves in order for that to happen.  They were only really doing it because his family were pressurising him to do it. My sister didn't really care either way at first and I think she thought it was a good excuse for a booze-up and some presents for the baby.  But closer to the time, she was having serious doubts.  She went along with it anyway, mainly just because of his family.  I think she knows that at the end of the day it makes little difference. They got a nice day out of it and pleased the fiance's family, and the church got another nice tick on the tally to beef up their statistics.

[monkey0506]

Your argument hurts my brain that you can honestly believe it's something you chose (in the actual definition of: to choose). What happened to you as a child was a complete definition of: brainwashing (albeit, for the lack of a better word, it can sound a little harsh)

By the exact definition you've provided, a child raised by atheist parents who don't explicitly teach their child (objectively, which is impossible) about theism from the get out and offer them the choice is also being brainwashed against it. Therefore, by your exact logic, the only objective choice would be to denounce atheism and become a theist. There is a huge flaw in your logic, and I'd like you to stop overlooking it. Or at least accept that atheists are equally responsible of brainwashing children, who then grow into adults who by-and-large are able to make their own decisions.

I was immediately grounded for a week, then yelled at and then scolded and scolded more, making me feel like I was the scum on the earth and that my own mother didn't love me because of the choice I made.

Luckily I didn't have a super die hard religious family who could've decided to bring me to numerous religious schools and whatnot trying to push that belief back in there, to basically re brainwash me in a forceful way.

It's readily apparent that your mother acted emotionally and didn't look at the situation objectively. That experience with your parents does not mean that this is the only experience that anyone could have with all parents. Logic has failed again. If I ever have kids and they choose to become atheists (because it is a choice), I will love and care for them the same way. I will persuade them to re-evaluate, but I will not treat them any differently. Just as I don't treat any other person on the street, or anyone who declares themselves an atheist differently. I care about people, and I am supported in that by my religion.

Anyway, I don't dislike anyone for being religious. I'm also certainly not trying to make anyone become atheist. I don't want to force my beliefs onto others, I want to let them choose on their own (just like I would with my own children). I am just trying to get you to accept that it is, in all definition, a form of brainwashing. And that you in fact did not "choose" for yourself (unless, like I said, you actually found a religion your parents didn't pass on to you).

Bad logic remains bad, bro. But I haven't read anything past this post coz I'm at work. I appreciate your non-judgement, as I don't judge you, but your selective "applies only to you, but not to me" logic is bothersome. From an objective standpoint.

[Ryan Timothy B]

There is a huge flaw in your logic, and I'd like you to stop overlooking it. Or at least accept that atheists are equally responsible of brainwashing children, who then grow into adults who by-and-large are able to make their own decisions.

Wrong. From my standpoint, one is faithfully believing in magical beings written by men who used to think the world was flat. The other is completely logical and correct in a scientific standpoint. (side-note: this can be your exact response to me - except my faith doesn't have powerful almighty beings who love and protect me and want us all to dance in glee when we're all dead)

But yes. I agree that me raising my child without religion, even if I didn't express my own opinions, will undoubtedly make them faithless as well. They just likely will not know why they're faithless or atheist. At least this is a much better way to raise a child rather than telling them that Santa Claus is actually real (replace Santa Claus with religion, because in all honesty, what's the fucking difference? ha).

[waheela]

Just thought I'd stop by again to lighten the mood...

[embed=425,349]<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Kppx4bzfAaE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/embed]

[kaput]

If that isn't a reason to be Christian, I dunno what is. PHAT BEATZ FOH JEBUZ YOW!

[monkey0506]

I should love my Christian brothers and sisters more than my real sisters

There is absolutely no record of Christ (who fulfilled and superseded the Mosaic law, etc.) ever saying that anyone should be loved "more equally". Whoever told you this was not practicing Christianity.

Monkey:

I don't think it's impossible for people to be good or moral (etc.) in the absence of religion or faith. My argument is that my beliefs make me more good, moral, etc.

But what you're saying boils down to "as long as I'm afraid of hell, I'll behave better".
And you still think you have the better morals?

I don't believe that I said my morals were better than anyone else's. This is a problem - a lot of what is being perceived isn't what is being said, on both sides. I think this is in human nature to do this, but it doesn't exactly help anyone.

Please explain the fundamental difference between "my beliefs make me more moral" and "my morals are better".

Khris, there is a fundamental difference between saying "by acting this way I become more moral than acting that way" and saying "my morals are superior to your morals". They're not even related statements. Following my faith leads me to making more moral decisions than when I am not following my faith. This is what I said, and what I meant. Please do not try and twist my words into meaning something other than what I actually said.

Running on that same line of thought though, if you stripped away every bit of mysticism, mythology, supernatural, paranormal, scientifically ineffable tradition from my belief system, you'd still be left with a set of guidelines that say to be generally awesome to everyone equally no matter what, to help the poor, sick, and needy, and to care about other people more than I care about myself. I will not be ashamed for saying that following these guidelines make me into a better person than I would otherwise be.

one is faithfully believing in magical beings

It's really interesting to me how everyone supposes that the definition of "god" must involve something completely unrelated to the physical realm whatsoever. Why couldn't a god simply be a sentient creature with greater dominion over the physical plane of existence than what human beings have? Because there is no scientific record of these creatures existing on earth? Or because it would shatter our fragile human egos to think that we're not the most advanced beings that could possibly exist in all of the realm of possibility, even down to the point that some of us are so bold as to declare that the only possible fourth dimension is "time" which is in itself a human invention?

Time doesn't pass or progress, because all it amounts to is a record of the order in which events happened. The progression of time would indicate that time itself is moving, and therefore sufficient opposing force could stop or even reverse it. This is simply not true. The quantum state of every atom in every molecule in the universe isn't going to start reverting itself because you twisted the minute hand the wrong way. But I digress.

Even in the absence of a spiritual plane of existence, it would still be plausible, and possible that life (and evolution) on earth was manipulated by a being with superhuman control over the physical realm. In a manner of speaking, one could even say:



Oh, and the existence of extraterrestrial lifeforms also doesn't go against my beliefs, and is directly supported by them (even doctrinally).

Just thought I'd stop by again to lighten the mood...

May as well go straight to the heart of the issue...

[embed=425,349]<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RsK7Tg3hV-0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/embed]

[Ryan Timothy B]

Don't get me wrong here, my knowledge on Mormonism is quite small. But reading about it on wikipedia earlier today, it sounds like it wasn't a thing until 1820s when a man named Joseph Smith, Jr., claimed "he wrote the Book of Mormon after finding buried Golden Plates by being directed to their location by an angel".

What makes him different from, let's say, Hitler? Hitler was a man who was convincing enough to turn the majority of a country into a destructive uprising against the world - not to mention turning his people against Jews and other races. He was a very dedicated and convincing man.

What's to say this Smith person wasn't just as dedicated? "Hey, I'm not overly happy with Christianity, I'm going to make my own spin off of it". He was obviously convincing enough to have led anyone into believing him, let alone having people like you, 200 years later, still defending him and his claims. To each their own, I suppose.

That fact that the various different belief systems in the world are concentrated in different parts of the world, to me, is very strong evidence that none of them are right.

You know what, if this entire planet only had one single religion, you bet your fancy ass I wouldn't be atheist. I just absolutely know I'd believe in it.

Edit: Basically what I want to say, Monkey, is: If a man happened to run up to you today, telling you he wrote a religious book after finding some golden plates would you believe him? (were those golden plates ever shown to anyone, or were they strictly just part of Joseph Smith's story?) The only reason these claims have any weight on your belief is mostly because you were raised with them, and secondly, because it happened 200 years ago and there is now a numerous amount of followers.

No one wants to be the first follower when it comes to a religion. But when you see a large group, you're all over that shit - especially when you're actually conceived and born in this group.

[kaput]

my knowledge on Mormonism is quite small

[embed=425,349]<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7q6brMrFw0E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/embed]

Seems legit.

[LimpingFish]

Hitler spotted! Godwin's Law invoked! Thread is over!