There's no such thing as objectivity (so I may as well be religious).

[waheela]

Some of the posts I read here this morning reminded me of this...

[Lt. Smash]

xD haha that's a nice graphic!! I already knew it but without the most important last step

I so much love these religious debates! Everyone gets angry on another, fights for his beliefs and tells the others what they should think... aah it's just lovely

[kaput]

This debate is really heating up! But I still have a few questions:

-If Jesus was so great why didn't we get a sequel? What with kickstarter around now it's the perfect platform for upcoming messiah's.
- Moreover, is faith freeware now or is there still a weekly membership fee?

Thanx

[Crimson Wizard]

@waheela, now change words to "Don't kill", and you get far different impression.

[Khris]

You do realize that the entire point of this image is that the creator of this vast universe doesn't want people to masturbate, right?
But since we're changing it, why not change the words to "don't kill" and remove Jesus? Suddenly, it even makes sense.

Edit after reply:
It didn't sound like a joke to me, more like: "those silly atheists just don't get how profound and great Jesus's teachings are". But all this religious nonsense is probably already getting to me, and I don't want to put words in your mouth.

[Crimson Wizard]

You do realize that the entire point of this image is that the creator of this vast universe doesn't want people to masturbate, right?

Yes, yes, I was kidding. *sigh*

[Stee]

Can we merge this into the other ridiculously long thread on religion that ultimately went nowhere?

@Monkey , Miguel, Adeel : Don't argue with an atheist, they will always question your beliefs. If you are happy with them, then good for you 

@Khris, Crimson & other atheists / supporters of this side of the debate : Don't argue with a religious person, they are just as stubborn about their faith as you are about your lack of it.

All religions have a deep rooted level of corruption in them. It's about taking the good things out of the stories and overlooking the stuff that is quite obviously bullshit. All religions when broken down to their basics provide a good foundation of morals and ethics. After that, it's up to the person themselves what story to believe / not believe.

As for the whole homosexual thing.. I have no idea where the thread derailed (not like it was railed in the first place). I personally don't see why it matters. If it means they are going to hell or whatever in your religion then so be it. It's not like it's your problem. If you are an atheist and have issue with it then I think it is quite hypocritical to have issue with people who are free thinking and as liberal as you claim to be.

Personally I feel a tiny bit uneasy when I see 2 men kissing each other in public, but then I think hetero couples go far too overboard with it all too and that makes me uncomfortable. I'm hardly going to go around locking up homosexuals or start executing them for their beliefs / lifestyle choices / way they were born (circle whichever one you think is applicable). That stuff is what lead to WWII (yeah I'm invoking Godwins law again). In some way I think it's quite admirable that they continue to show their feelings in public despite the fact there are still so many people intolerant towards it.

Now I'm kinda hoping my magical ability to kill threads is still working as I'm getting bored of these Religion threads popping up 

[Khris]

I don't post in threads that bore me and hope to kill them, I ignore them.

Plus, like I said before, I'm not trying to convert the religious people, I'm posting here so people who read this thread can see the arguments on both sides and maybe learn a thing or two about either side they didn't know before. The best way to do this is to address the arguments, isn't it? To me, it's all about the people on the fence. And I get to practice arguing for my position.

I agree that a forum about a game engine maybe isn't the best place for this, but at least we aren't debating this in a youtube video's comment section.

So take your condescendence, shove it and go back to not posting, unless you have something meaningful to add.

[miguel]

Monkey, I know how Khris "bursts into flames" real fast, and no, I'm not upset about his comments. He's honest with himself. I respect him a lot.

I am indeed upset with the mockery of some guys that just came in into the thread, launched a joke or two about religion, felt really superior about themselves and left. It's okay, maybe I deserve it. I sometimes jump into threads only to say stupid stuff. Only this time I really care for what I am defending.

But, anyway, I knew this thread would turn up like this. Religious people are but a few in our little forum universe and then there are this boring atheists with their statistics and studies...Oh well, enough said. I know it's over.

I love to live, I can't see me near death, and hell, or the impossibility of reason, is one last step before dust, bones and...nothing.
If there is a hell, or Hell or one Hell, at least I can cry out of my lungs that I didn't do it! It wasn't me!
I rather suffer in burning pain for eternity than to simply vanish into nothing.
Why should I surrender to the notion that there is nothing after death if all my willing and hope is telling me there is.
Why should I yield to reason if love grabs me by the collar?
The last breath, the last electricity pinballing neurons, the last thought...and nothing. That's it.
Not for me.

Maybe religious people are the mad men of modern times, maybe we are the true rebels of a plastic world,
but we see colours while you see in Black & White.
What I do know, it's we're here and it's now.
The lack of respect is just to much for me to continue this debate.

I'll be at the guess the movie thread replying "Blade Runner" to all the smart-ass kids that think that a good movie is one that nobody has seen.

[kaput]

I am indeed upset with the mockery of some guys that just came in into the thread, launched a joke or two about religion, felt really superior about themselves and left.

It's not about feeling superior. It's about throwing water on the fire to cool things down in here (you guys are really tearing into each other). Although in hindsight it probably has had the opposite effect on some people. If I in particular offended you with a joke, miguel, I for one sincerely apologise.

[monkey0506]

Thanks for answering my questions, monkey!

You're welcome!

If government fills the role of "keeping people in line", why do we need the bible? Do you, truly, need a book to tell you to be nice to people? If you were not a Mormon, would you honestly tell me to fuck off because I'm intellectually inferior to you?

The government doesn't care about morality, they care about keeping their citizens in a manageable state so that they can continue collecting money from them. The Bible at least encourages good moral values. And yes, if I weren't a Mormon I would be a lot more pissy than I am anyway. People are generally ignorant, and mostly they're too ignorant to know or care.

Is slavery in any context actually good?

That really depends. Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed. Firsthand accounts support this. It's also supported by the number of slaves who willingly stayed with their former "masters" to continue working (because they knew they didn't stand a chance at making a living on their own).

There's also the context in which people are placed into slavery under less humane terms as a form of punishment against them, such as the Jewish slaves in ancient Egypt. Because God's covenant people had willfully rebelled against him, they were subjected to some horrible things. This is essentially the same as a parent stepping aside when a rebellious child refuses to listen, even though the parent knows that the outcome will be far worse for the child.

because honestly, a fair and just God isn't going to treat unequal people as equals

-Who, specifically, is unequal and undeserving?

Everyone is unequal. There is an idiom in parenting that children should be treated equitably, not necessarily equally. Odds are that any given parent is not going to have two children who learn, grow, and act exactly the same. Treating these two children would not be fair to anyone. Parents should make a conscious effort to acknowledge their children's differences so that they can be treated with equity.

-Why would God create people who are unequal?

Because the alternative is everyone being an exact carbon-copy clone of everyone else. The entire purpose of life itself would be frustrated if everyone had the exact same experience (hence the reason that Satan was deemed the loser in the war in heaven).

-If God truly loved every one of us, why would he send some of us to hell, an eternity of torture, for being unequal? Does he really love us if he does?

This is like asking, "if a parent truly loves their children, why would they ever discipline them?" If God is perfect and just, then he is bound to assign punishment to those who willingly choose to rebel against his law. That speaks nothing of whether he loves them. God loves Satan, as even Satan is one of his children. That doesn't mean that God is going to break the justice by which he is bound. At the same time, it also wouldn't be fair or just to hold anyone accountable for knowledge which they never had the opportunity to gain. Those who will be assigned the greatest punishment are those who had the opportunity to accept the truth but willfully rejected it.

As to "an eternity of torture", nothing would be worse torture to me than having eternity to come to terms with the fact that I didn't live up to my full potential. Of course, if I hadn't lived a life in accordance with God's law, I certainly wouldn't be comfortable in his presence either. Heck, I don't even feel comfortable going to church on Sundays if I know that I've openly made decisions that go against everything I say I believe. Placing someone outside the presence of God doesn't mean that they are separated from his love (otherwise, even here on this earth we would be separated from his love).

-If a mass murderer or rapist converts on his deathbed, does he go to heaven? If so, is that truly fair and just?

Repentance isn't about lip-service. Repentance is a process which generally speaking requires significantly more time than anyone on their deathbed is going to have. Murder is spoken of as being one of the hardest sins to actually be forgiven of, in part because you can't just go and make reparation to the person you've harmed. It wouldn't be just or fair to assume that someone simply saying, "Oh, btw, sorry," would be pardoned of a life of sin.

[monkey0506]

Can we merge this into the other ridiculously long thread on religion that ultimately went nowhere?

You mean the thread that wasn't about religion and had nothing to do with religion? If anything, the religious discussion from that thread should be split from it, rather than merging this unrelated topic with it. It's a good thing that you aren't a moderator, because you don't seem to understand how forums are supposed to work.

[Khris]

boring atheists with their statistics and studies

I guess I must have skipped over the boring parts, and the links to the statistics and studies. Can't find them anywhere though.

Why should I surrender to the notion that there is nothing after death if all my willing and hope is telling me there is.

You're right! Please will and hope for cancer to vanish, while you're at it, since doing so seems to make it true.

Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.

Congratulations. I rest my case.


I just remembered something I recently heard:
If there is a god like the one proposed by the religious people here, it follows that whenever a child is raped, god either sent the rapist to do it, or he watches them do it, and punishes them after they're done.
This god is neither perfect nor just, and he surely isn't deserving of worship. Thank god, there's absolutely no evidence for his existence.

If anything, this thread has shown how thoroughly religion can poison the innate moral sense of a human. So I guess it was worth it after all.

[miguel]

Blade Runner?

[awakening]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I figured after reading bits and pieces all over the place from this thread and some others, this would be the place to ask this.

Monkey - how can you say your religion makes you a better person and leave '#1 Gay Basher' as the text under you avatar?

I pride myself on accepting and liking all people until they give me a reason not to.
But I have no respect for you at all after reading this. That really makes my blood boil.  Sorry, I try not to hate without reason, but I just can't stand that kind of thing.
I don't see what it has to do with you what other people do with their lives?

[Crimson Wizard]

Monkey - how can you say your religion makes you a better person and leave '#1 Gay Basher' as the text under you avatar?

He is joking. Or pretending to be a troll.

I have a question for you, though. How can you judge a man out of context - by reading "bits and pieces" of what was written in the thread?

[awakening]

I have a question for you, though. How can you judge a man out of context - by reading "bits and pieces" of what was written in the thread?

I think anyone can assume that anyone who writes "#1 Gay Basher" in some kind of proud way has an opposition to them, for one reason or another.  Anybody who writes such a blatant hatred towards another human being is opening themselves up to being questioned and judged.  It's not very nice, is it?  Why wouldn't I want to oppose unjust discrimination?

I've also read enough of the threads to get an understanding of it all.  The bits I skipped over were people's posts like Khris, who share the same viewpoints as myself.

[Khris]

Monkey thinks we all see him as #1 Gay basher now, so he might as well put it there for everyone to see, since it is "OBVIOUSLY NOT TRUE, ya know?"
It's just a passive-aggressive way of declaring himself the winner of the argument.

[Calin Leafshade]

Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.

My mind is blown.

[Lt. Smash]

Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.Slavery in America was generally good. That is, the majority of slaves lived better, more productive lives as slaves than the persecution and segregation that followed.

My mind is blown.

Mine too. Seriously stating that slavery was generally good without joking, can be enough information to judge a person.
If it's just a joke to pretend to be #1 gay basher, I think it won't be a problem to share this:

[embed=425,349]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06jF1EG8o-Q[/embed]