yeenglish

[Goldmund]

Okay. So now, Brits and Yanks and Aussies, tell us the non-native-speakers the truth.

Do you often laugh when playing a game made by an European, who tried to make it serious, whereas made some silly grammar and spelling mistakes?
(this thread is directed towards native-speakers who can spell "weird", btw)

Do our games sound like some children-preschool-talk-boo-beee-boo?

Does it often ruin your enjoyment of the game?

Do I sound stupid, even without knowing this? (outrageous possibility!)

I get really perplexed when I think that maybe the dialog in my game isn't as spiffy as I think because, for example, I put a high-brow word into the mouth of a low-life.

After all those questions, another one arises: Does It Matter.
This is an interesting question once you think about the fact that probably 80% of AGSers and, generally, adventure gamers are non-native speakers. So maybe we're just going towards some universal version of english, that the whole of the world understands and enjoys apart from some strange islanders and sea-pirates-offspring who stick to ye olde grammar books?

[Darth Mandarb]

It doesn't bother me really ... as long as I can still understand what's trying to be conveyed.

There are times when a mistake can be general humorous and cause me to laugh.  But, in knowing that the person isn't a native-speaker, I laugh innocently with no intention of insult.

cheers,
dm

[scotch]

You and Helm asked me this at mittens, and I said you generally speak english as well as us.. well that's almost true
Gramatically it isn't wrong, and without the obvious accent in real life you may as well be American or British, sometimes sentences are slightly odd, just not quite how a native speaker would say something such as in

'Do I sound stupid, even without knowing this?'

I think 'Do I sound stupid without knowing it?' would be a more natural way to say it for me at least.  But unless you are looking for it it's not noticable and well within the boundaries of the various ways people write...

So for the majority of AGSers writing at least it doesn't change the enjoyment of the game.

When it is bad though, it can be funny, like when Farlander makes little mistakes, but you lot seem to find it as amusing as we do (perhaps moreso because you're probably putting more effort into your words than a native speaker)

Does it matter? When it's damaging how a character comes across or ruining a description of something it does, but I haven't come across anything that bad in AGS so far.
I personally quite like the unusual phrasing and different choice of words, it doesn't sound bad, it usually just sounds different.

Edit: Thinking of that night, is there anywhere I can get some of that music of yours that you were playing?  I really did like a lot of it

Edit 2: Oh and slightly on topic, I think I actually prefered the ones in Polish somehow.. so perhaps the foreign English speaking does put me off, might just be a cooincidence though.

[Bionic Bill]

I have noticed awkward phrases and grammatical mistakes in non-native English speakers' games. I have also noticed them in native English speakers' games. English speakers, especially those darn Americans(*cough*), seem to have a pretty loose grip on their own language, in general.  For instance, my gut reaction to making the plural word "speakers" possesive, was to add an apostrophe after the "s." I didn't have a reason, and it might not be correct. Should I have put that comma after possesive? I know if I was speaking, I would pause after the word possesive, but there probably shouldn't be a comma there. Should I say "If I were speaking"? Where the heck should that question mark go? Should there be a comma or period before the quotation mark?

All these and more are questions I cannot answer for certain, and I'm a native English speaker. I would probably crack open one of my grammar books if they came up while I was writing a story or script. Well, anyways, all that to say little nit-picky grammar stuff can be solved by picking up a book. There's probably a place online.

The annoying stuff is the silly awkward phrases that might crop up. I think anyone writing a game in a different language should get a native speaker to go through it and make it more natural where it needs changing. I think I found myself giggling inadvertently at different points in Pleurghburg, SOL, and The Uncertainty Machine. I think those are all by non-native speakers, and mostly serious games. It does detract a bit from the atmosphere, but not to "WHAT YOU SAY?" extremes. It has bothered me, but probably because I am about to get my undergraduate degree in writing. Most awkwardness could probably get caught by a simple run-through.

If you ever need somebody to go through your game, I definitely volunteer. Update your site sometime, by the way.

[Dmitri]

I always remember the old axiom/saying thingy

"You can speak english better than what I can speak (insert your language here) so I can't bloody well complain,"

Engrish is sometimes funny though, mostly when the translation is so bad it's impeding natural enjoyment

think of "All your Base; are belong to us" type of thing

Bionic Bill: English is a bastard language, it has roots from all the invaders of the Britons, that means Latin (romans) Greek, German, French and Turkish

[DGMacphee]

Yes, I does laugh because the Europeons do the talking funny camel.

[Goldmund]

Thanks for your comments! Now I feel how stupid it was to start a new thread the same night I leave for a week

Darth:

But, in knowing that the person isn't a native-speaker, I laugh innocently with no intention of insult.

Okay, but I'm not talking about insulting. I'm talking about evoking the specific emotional impact on the player, and it's really frustrating to know he/she might "laugh innocently" the very moment that the main character's mother dies a terrible death.

Scotch:
Yes, I remember your kind answer
I guess the unusual phrasing is ok as long as it doesn't become hilarious, and I get really irritated that I cannot control the nuances of my English... maybe because writing - so, the language as well - is the essence of my occupation.

OT: (As for my music, the songs in Polish are made by my band, whereas the electronic ones with English lyrics are a separate project - anyway, right now none of them is available on the net, mainly because we are trying to sign a deal with some publishers, and making the music freely available might be a problem for them; still, I will bombard you with all of my tracks once I return and catch you on mIrc!)

Bionic Bill:
See, I never noticed anything awkward in Pleurgh, U-Machine or Sol. But I'm aware of the danger.
It is so hard to talk about this, because even when a word is used correctly its sound may be considered funny and out of place for somebody who used a language since childhood - if you're a writer, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
For example, there is a name in Polish - Zenon. This name is very funny. Do you find its sound funny as well? I doubt it. But when I use it in a story, the reader immediately knows that this person isn't supposed to be serious, and even if the person is a serious character, there's this dichotomy between the name and character.

Thank you for your offer, I will definitely ask for help before releasing Donna - but as it has LOADS of text already, I think you're going to regret it
As for my page - yeah, I neglect it, I just find it better to work on the game as my web-design skills are close to nil. I'll try to make a better one soon (and not on darn Geocities!11!)

[Ginny]

Well, my native languge is hebrew technically, though I always speak russian at home, but there are many times when I feel english is more natural for me. It could be the fact that at a very young age I lived in Singapore for a while, and english sank in eventually, though according to my mom I didn't say anything in english for 2 out of the 8 months we spent there (I say according to my mom because I don't remember, lol).

In any case, english is my favorite language, which could have affected my skills in this language, like for instance it could've unconciously motivated me to watch films and read books, thus improving my english, whereas I don't read very much in hebrew (I just don't like the type of books that are written originally in hebrew, and reading a traslation is pointless since I'd much rather read the original version (if it's in english that is. Though even if it isn't I find english translations better sometimes).

The language I use in real life is different from what I use online, because on the internet everything seems to be much lighter and forming entirely correct sentences isn't that important. I don't really know the rules anyway...
In games I think the language is a slight mix of the two, though it could be just me. It depends on the game's mood of course, and I wouldn't write lol in a game dialog, but I don't use high words and I'm not afraid to use shortened sentences, if you know what I mean.
I would definetly use "higher" words if it's part of a characters personality though.

Also, spelling mistakes can give a character a lot of peronality, if he says 'em instead of them and tis instead of it is/it's.

Non deliberate spelling mistakes can be funny too, but can create a problem when the game isn't supposed to be funny, at least not in that way, or when the mistake appears somewhere where it isn't appropriate to laugh. Like when someone's mother dies for instance .
I don't remember any AGS games that I noticed serious mitakes in, but in Syberia I remember chuckling at the bigining, talking to the hotel manager(?), when there was a sentence that didn't start with a capital letter or something like that. You might've noticed that on the internet, starting a sentence with a capital letter isn't as important. Also, we use abbreviations to shorten typing time and because it's just more comfortable, but I wouldn't use IMO in real life ( now that's a scary thought), or in a game.

DGM:   lol

Dmitri: lol @ "All your base..." the mistakes in it are what makes it funny.
The saying is very true .

P.S. when I finally make a game, there's a good chance I might run the script by you, Bill . I wouldn't want to ruin the game for you though, so we'll see. Generally I think I can spellcheck with the good old dictionary (I have several, including the huge Random house dictionary. it's my favorite ), and I tend to 'feel' when grammar is incorrect.

So, yeah, anyway, that's all..

[Darth Mandarb]

Okay, but I'm not talking about insulting. I'm talking about evoking the specific emotional impact on the player, and it's really frustrating to know he/she might "laugh innocently" the very moment that the main character's mother dies a terrible death.

Well I guess at times it could get in the way.  Again, as long as it's not gibberish, I think the point will come across.

However, it's possible it could effect the emotional impact of the scene.

|>arth/\/\andarb

[taryuu]

yes, they sound funny unintentionally. short of studying english at university for 5 years i don't think there's a way to avoid it.

on the plus side, you're not the only people to screw it up.  even big corporations do it.  remember that "all your base" thing?  and coca cola means "bite the wax tadpole" in chinese.

[MachineElf]

I know I for one use a lot of "high" vocabulary in not so appropriate situations... I'm often accused of sounding posh or gay, neither of which I particularily am.

Anyway, I don't know about you other non-native English users, but I think it's easier to spot bad English from someone who normally speaks my native language (Swedish that is) than someone who speaks a different language. Unless it's obvious, of course ("Is there possibilites to see naked girls?" No offense, Nacho!). Still, Swedes are usually very good at English compared to many other nationalities. If I play a German game, for example, the English is often a lot worse, but I don't really see a pattern in the mistakes as I often do in a Swedish game (or anywhere a Swede uses english). I also do find it more annoying to see bad English from a Swede, probably because I see just those patterns (Permanent Daylight features some very typical mistakes, I recall). If an englishman say something in a wrongway, however, you just think that's the way it actually should be, which is probably wrong.

Goldmund: It's interesting what you say about names. Zenon to me sounds like a pretty cool name. I will definately use a Polish guy named Zenon in some game... But your pronunciation of the letter Z is quite different from the English/German/Swedish way of saying it, right? And I also want your music badly!

Don't know if I actually got somewhere in this thread... I just think language is an interesting think to discuss.

[Archangel (aka SoupDragon)]

I don't think it matters a jot. Look at the popularity of FF7, for example. Although the translation is pretty good, it's nowhere near as good as it would be had an English person translated it. But that didn't stop it from selling a million playstations.

[Timosity]

I think a lot of the non native english speakers, write better english than a lot of native english speakers. Probably because they have to think more carefully about what they write.

Sometimes the grammer is odd, but as long as it makes sense, I have no problem with it, infact I like it when it's not totally grammatically correct, that's one thing about english that I like, you can get away with bad grammer and still get your point across, pitty it doesn't help your marks at school.

I think most acclaimed english writers are just caught up in there own bullshit, getting the point across clear is more important than trying to confuse the fuck out of eveyone, so that only a hand full of other wankers get it. But then most people get it anyway, we just pretend we don't, just to put these writers in a false sense of security that we think they are in some way smart, that'll learnem.

make good games, in gooda yeenglish as can be, and they will be good,
yay I will like it, it nice will be, oh shit a goana ran up a tree, now I need to go wee wee.

[Pet Terry]

Thing that bugs me is how person from foreign country would spell my name for example. I thought what would happen if I would have been at Mittens.
Me: "Hey all, I'm Petteri."
Everyone else: "Who?"

Even if we would have spoken a lot to each other in MSN or something

[Nacho]

I agree with Bionic Bill in the aspect that if you´re not an English speaker you need to be friend of one who could translate the dialogs. I allways give Scotch my dialogs, and he kindly takes a look to it. I suppose that a error of Grammar in an important scene can spoil the whole game for the English speaker sommunity.

It also works for revisting the style. The Adventura games have a very specific lenguaje. The long diaogs of "Loom" ,for example, may be not suitable for 2003 standarts, and I don´t feel capable to make them more appealing with the nice cinematics of, for example, Full Throttle.

I remember a project I´ve had in mind. It was bout nazis and time travels. I was not able to make the dialogs about the time travel paradexes and all that stuff in a "Game Adventure Style"... So I´ve had to cancel it... while that very same dialogs would be a nice source of possibilities for a novel writer.

Game Adventure dialogs have a very specific Rythim (are the "y" and the "i" well placed?)... A person revisiting the style (and misspelling, of course) Can make the difference between a good and a bad dialog.

And talking about chatting and posting... I think that Brits, Yankies and Aussies are very comprehensive and respectfull about the "non-native English speakers". They know how lucky they´re for talking an "Universal lenguaje", but, maybe because of that, they "admire" us in some way. The "Don´t laugh of the foreign, chap, you are not able to talk a word of their languaje, are you?" feeling is real, IMO.

And about me beeing the target of friendly laughs... If anybody doubted... I am not worried at all  . Nobody blames me, I am not guilty of the stupid anti-anglosaxon feeling that there is in Spain. Here the English education is crap, and, worst of all, there are no chances to practise English between spaniards. Shame on them, for judjing foreign cultures without having any idea of what they´re talking about.

The 6 days I´ve spent in Mittens had been some of the happier in my life... I can´t really say that I succeded in my task of tresspassing the lenguaje barrier, but  I succeded in the most important duty I´ve had in Mittens: I´ve made some of the closest friends I´ll have ever.

I hope to come next year domining the Shakespeare´s lenguaje. If so, I´ll be the Lennon, not just the Ringo, but... What matters if MY FRIENDS make some laughs WITH ME for my misspellings? nothing at all  .

[Barcik]

I, much like GinnyW speak Russian at home and Hebrew on the street, and have adopted English a favourite language. The results is that a casual sentance I say to a friend may be contain words in 3 different languages (in fact, it happens pretty often). Sometimes I just switch in the middle of a sentance to a different language without even noticing.

With that trivial piece of information, I continue to what I really say. While non-native speakers can control the language and handle it well, they will most likely find it hard to put in all kinds of "cool" expressions and difficult slang as seen in movies, for example. For example, I can hardly see how a non-native speaker could do dialogs "Pulp Fiction"-style, yet a native speaker may find it more natural.

[Sylpher]

The only time I notice a different as far as secondary english speakers go is when it comes to slang. Which is to be expected. How ever it seems to be less and less noticeable since the Internet has become so big over the years and since European/American Television is more frequently seen in Europe/America..

Then again I am a stones throw away from California (Figuritively speaking) and their is new slang to be found on nearly a weekly basis around here which slowly spreads across the world. As much as you may think phrases like "Dawg", "Wassup" or "Shiznizzle my Nizzle" got pretty old a few years ago...And if any of you say it I will laugh at you cause that is sooo like...yesterday!