Suggestion regarding this forum, read and tell your opinion.

Kweepa · Wed 21/04/2004 09:43:21

I say no to the split.

As I see it, Critics Lounge is here to improve the skills of people making AGS games, so that the AGS games you play are better. I think more beginners should post here. I'd like to see full games posted, critiqued, and improved before they make it to the games page.

I agree that a lot of posts recently have been backgrounds that look like the creator spent two minutes on it. I think the best way to handle this is to reiterate the advice in the "READ BEFORE POSTING" stickie and tell them to post only when they have gone as far as they can with a piece. Obviously it depends on the style, but maybe recommend 3-4 hours work minimum before posting?

The one thread per member seems like a good idea, but how is it going to be enforced?

As for replies, the old maxim "If you haven't got something bad to say, don't say anything" applies.

Steve

If your thread disappears off the front page, it's probably because no-one had anything to say about it. That's a good thing.

[Cameron] · Wed 21/04/2004 09:54:48

I think it should be sperate categories along the lines of "Game art" and "Misc. art" instead of "n00b" and "elite"

Igor · Wed 21/04/2004 11:40:25

I think i like Eric's idea best. Not new forum, but enhanced old CL.

100 chars limit would be perfect i guess, as i must say i'm often guilty of short replys too. Usualy i don't really have enough time, so when i see some post that i like, i just leave a quick encouraging message- that is, if i honestly don't see any distracting faults. Chars limit would solve this very nicely (even if reply is compliment, you'll at least have to tell exactly why you like it).

Fronzel · Wed 21/04/2004 14:58:20

I like the posting everything in one thread, my only question is what you would do about the eventual length of your thread? At a stopping place would you ask a mod to delete it and you start a new one? That would keep some clutter out, definitely.

big brother · Wed 21/04/2004 15:08:45

Ooh, I think I'd have to go with Andail's original idea.

I think it can be disappointing for a new member to post their artwork and have it ripped apart by people with different goals.

For example, when evaluating a background, I know I consider things like amount of detail-per-depth, color forcing, etc. However, many new members don't care about these things, as they just want a decent-loooking functional background (and nothing wrong with that at all).

I know if I post a background in the forum I will get almost nothing constructive out of it. Most people post in reaction to the skill of the artist, not to the appearance of the work itself.

I don't care if people think something I draw is "good" or "bad". That doesn't help me at all. If someone can say "the colors of your distant objects have too much contrast", that is advice I can implement.

Likewise, beginners may not care about the same things I do, and they just want to know if their background is good, or what they can do to make it functional.

Don't you think it would be discouraging for a beginner to post something and get comments like "your inverse triangular compostion could be better accented through the use of truncated diagonals and negative space"?
A comment like that would be helpful to me, but overwhelming to others.

Maybe we could find a better name than "beginner's critic lounge" so we don't promote elitism.

Kweepa · Wed 21/04/2004 15:18:54

Quote from: big brother on Wed 21/04/2004 15:08:45
If someone can say "the colors of your distant objects have too much contrast", that is advice I can implement.

That is advice that almost anyone can implement.

Quote
Don't you think it would be discouraging for a beginner to post something and get comments like "your inverse triangular compostion could be better accented through the use of truncated diagonals and negative space"?

The information contained in that particular piece of nonsense, which I appreciate you have obfuscated for effect, is probably of interest to most people.

However, I think it's pretty easy to guess what sort of advice is going to be heeded and what ignored. So you can carry on your elitism without splitting forums - just ask for indepth criticism when posting, and be condescending when replying

SSH · Wed 21/04/2004 15:45:30

Maybe the difference between the forums is not beginner versus experienced or whatever, but rather:

99% Finished work for criticism
vs
Please Darth, or Farl or Loominous or whoever do a paintover of my rough sketch so that it looks as incredible as your stuff.

So the first is "Critics (and only critics) lounge" forum and second is "Music/Art help forum". OK, there's stuff other than music/art but lets face it that is 99% of it: anything that falls between stools can bend the rules of one or other a bit. Also, with a forum title like that, n00bs are more likely to look in there for a sticky about paint programs!

Nacho · Wed 21/04/2004 16:57:03

That's what I wanted to express... thanks SSH.

Why not calling the forums "sketches" and "ellaborated"? (Excuse me for talking just of paintings, that's the business I control...)

Who can complain of that? We're not sepparating groups of "stickman painters" and "gurus", it can be a little despective...

Mr. C. could post in the "sketches" groups for asking which is the better color for the jersey of his new character... Kandymaniac could have posted there sketches of their news "Little John Evil", without feeling obligated to elaborate them more... I feel sometimes CL useless because people sees a great composition mistake when the whole background is too elaborated, and I don't use a lot of layers (I am learning

) and I'm too lazy too change it all... I finally just ignore the critics and go on :

.

With the "sketches" and the "elaborated art" forums it would be easier for ALL to post art...

Penguinx · Wed 21/04/2004 17:12:08

So, you are proposing more of a 'concept art' and 'finished works' type of setup? That would be OK.

Andail · Wed 21/04/2004 17:50:40

Having taken your oppinions into consideration....
I think I have to settle with the character limit suggestion. The other alternatives are just too controversial at the moment, and still run the risk of not work anyway.

If the situation deteriorates and the amount of rashed creations/c&c increase, we might have to consider taking more measures.

So, if CJ and Mods agree, could we have a trial period for a hundred characters minimum limit?

I will also discuss with Mods about another surprise implementation to encourage people to give more elaborated c&c, as well as publish material more prudently.

Stay tuned

.. · Wed 21/04/2004 18:44:13

I think If you did have one post per project (not person) you should have it so that when something new is posted the person has to change the subject to something like 'New background on pg 7 for C&C' so it will get put to the top of the critics lounge and people don't have to trail through the thread to see new pieces of artwork.

loominous · Wed 21/04/2004 20:31:29

A modified version of Andail s first suggestion would be to have seperate lounges for different types of criticism, instead of skill levels.

Most people seem to enjoy the current lounge and it s atmosphere, so I think leaving it as is would be best. The criticism consists mostly of friendly comments and encouragements, creating a supportive atmosphere which makes people comfortable with posting their art/critique, regardless of their skills.

The new lounge that I have in mind, would differ in the way of featuring only pure, honest constructional criticism in the manner of which Eric mentions, and having a more technical approach. This climate would likely lead to more discussions about techniques and sharing of indepth knowledge, something that might seem elitist in the ordinary lounge. Especially useful discussions/posts/tips could be gathered in knowledgethreads functioning as referencebanks to which the critics could refer.

So in short, the idea would be to let the present lounge stay as is, and create a new one in the style of which Eric and Andail speaks of.

Why not just fix this forum up instead of adding a new one?

As far as I can see, people in general like the current lounge the way it is. People like to post one line praises and smileys, and many enjoy recieving them, so why restrict these? They aren t bad per se, only a bit frustrating if you re wishing to recieve constructive advice.

In fact, the same thing can be said about detailed constructive criticism. Sometimes, people are simply proud of a piece of work, and wish to share it without seeing it torn apart, examined and criticised.

A new lounge would accommodate these diverse preferences, instead of forcing people to conform to the ideals of some.

Blackthorne · Wed 21/04/2004 21:40:49

Just look at it like this......

Critics Lounge 101 - The Beginners
Critcs Lounge 404 - For the more experienced.....

Just like a school course.... more is expected in later courses.

I think having two forums is a good idea. There has been an influx of really, well, thrown together things - as compared to the ART that some people turn in.....

Bt

big brother · Wed 21/04/2004 23:51:59

QuoteThat is advice that almost anyone can implement.

You've missed my point. I wasn't saying that only advanced artists CAN implement this type of advice, I was saying that only advanced artists will CARE. When beginners want advice on backgrounds, they don't usually want to spend 800 hours slaving over intricacies. What I propose is beginners have different goals than experienced artists.

QuoteThe information contained in that particular piece of nonsense, which I appreciate you have obfuscated for effect, is probably of interest to most people.

That phrase I said, while maybe an extreme combination of art terms, is definitely not nonsense. During my year of art school, hearing phrases like that was not uncommon. My point again was not that art advice can't be interesting to everyone, it's just that it might not be relevant to people's particular goals.

For example, just because I'm drawing a bridge doesn't necessarily mean I want to get into the architectural physics of it. While that might affect the visual outcome, it doesn't match my goal of wanting to depict a recognizable representation of a functional bridge.

See what I mean?

Penguinx · Thu 22/04/2004 00:02:25

Let me add some fuel to the fire, if I may (in a slightly off topic fashion).

I never got to go to art school. A lot of us who are mildly talented that didn't get a chance to go to art school wouldn't mind hearing when their work crosses the boundries of art theory.

I'd like to know if my inverse triangular compostion could be better accented through the use of truncated diagonals and negative space. I understand what that means and would not be offended in the least if someone 'in the know' dropped it on me...

I think, to most people here, I would be considered a noob. Especially since I don't have a published game and don't plan on working on one for about another four-to-six months.

Scummbuddy · Thu 22/04/2004 01:25:04

Although I like the idea, after thinking about it, I'm more against it, because I would be afraid that there wouldn't be enough fantastic artists checking out the other forum and offering their help.

rtf · Thu 22/04/2004 01:46:27

That is why we need a crack team of devoted moderators. Someone who is sympathetic, nice, and who know art... Someone who can handle it if a n00b13 lashed out at them...
...Someone like....

I dunno.

InCreator · Thu 22/04/2004 01:54:29

I don't like 2 forums idea. Neither thread/artist idea.

2 Forums? I think It would be more useful if new forum woul be named "Practise you art" or "Learn to draw" which means noobs would be posting there often and experts would tell them what or how to implement it.
And like this, "6 colors freehand pics" won't spam the CL.

Right now, if someone in CL says "not bad" I feel offended and if someone points out 101+ things to improve - it's a big compliment.

Thread per artist? How would it look like then? $:-\$
Maybe thread per project where someone posts some images of their project in progress, this would be better.

So, 3-4 bgs and sprites would be all in same thread.
This way, critics would be more fair too. For example, if I'm making a DOTT game and post one pic from it, and some expert offers a hand to correct bad perspective

remade/corrected picture won't fit with other ones in game at all.
But this way, people could rate overall style and give more correct advice. That fits with the style.

Another idea (although it may sound stupid): rating. Why don't try to rate art and give them some score. If someone's art gets low score occasionally, artist already knows that he/she should spend more time in "learn to draw" forum. Then again, it may insult or discourage...

Nacho · Fri 23/04/2004 23:14:03

so... Which has been the conclussion?

Sylpher · Sat 24/04/2004 21:51:49

My pennies...

I am a pretty heavy CL Lurker. I may be lying but I believe this is my first post ever here. I like browsing the Critics Lounge because it is very 'raw' art. A strange kind of inspiration. What I have always disliked is the vague topics. In that you 9 times out of 10 (or maybe more like 7 times) aren't sure if it is an image, song, story... ect.

I don't mean to be a music Nazi or image whore or anything but sometimes you like to just flip through and listen to some music or sometimes look at some images... perhaps you are stuck drawing something and sometimes just flipping through some art gets the gears turning.

The obvious solution is the break the critic's forum into its genre's of Music, Images, and Written Work. Though I don't know if this is the best solution. It would help breaking up things. Either that are forcing a more strict thread naming... thing. Such as in the tech forum.