what is missing from most games.

[Bionic Bill]

I didn't think I was separating between the two. Poor writing all around! Huzzah!

Most games vaguely attempt at some kind of implied emotive response. You're supposed to at least dislike the bad guy, and like the good guy. It's just very rarely done well. I think the same applies to most media, just moreso with games.

[Ginny]

Basically I think that with poor writing comes together with poor emotion (as Barcik said, they are not seperate), and probably vice versa too.
And yes, there are few games which have good writing, and these few tend to be the ones which also have good emotion. Interesting, isn't it?
I'm gonna go and think for a while on wether or not good writing can be done without emotion (focusing on games), and wether it's possible for a game with good emotions to have poor writing. Well, actually, I can answer the second right now, no, because poor writing means poor character writing and poor character writing means you don't care about the characters, meaning that emotion is practically impossible to create.

As for good writing without emotion, well, since good writing of characters will inevetably create emotion, then it's only possible if the story is utterly boring. That wouldn't be good writing though, so it's a contradiction. Mind, I wasn't asking and answering these questions to prove that emotion is part of writing, I was more checking if it was possible to seperate them, and it seems not to be.

Nellie: Yes, that' exactly the reason why emotion most often appers in cut-scenes, and such a result seems quite impossible to create with active media. It'll take some thought to see if maybe it is possible after all, because if it is, it'll improve immersion greatly, as well as some other things, but immersion mostly.
However the more I think about the more I think that it's best to leave most of the storytelling and emotions in passive parts of the game, but it's also important to transfer some into the actual gameplay. Not everywhere, yikes no, but in important parts of the game/story.

Bionic Bill- Yes, non-linearity can be the point (if I got your point right, heh) but when telling a major, interesting and emotional story, non-linearity can get in the way. You're right though, that's a different discussion .

Hmm, I should start disscuss threads like this one here, I find out that I have a lot to say in these threads, and there are many topics to talk about .

edit:
Just saw your post, Las. I'll read the article (I've read part of it before) before adding anything.

[Las Naranjas]

Barcik-Read the article. In games good emotion is possible with shit writing. This is true in all mediums, but exacerbated in games. Interactivity aids this.

[rodekill]

Wow.
This thread has given me a lot to think about in terms of character development.
It reminds me of the review I read for the new Tomb Raider movie that was posted on ainitcool.com.
Basically the reviewer said that the problem with the TR movies is that Lara is just a superhuman hero, with no flaws or personality. If you look at Indiana Jones, he gets into a lot of situations where you can tell he doesn't think he's gonna get out alive, and a lot of the time he escapes by luck. He gets hurt. He bleeds. You can relate to him. He seems relatively human. Lara on the other hand always has the right trick up her sleeve. There's no tension, no feeling of 'phew' when she does anything, because you just expect it of her.
Interesting stuff...

[MrColossal]

Music:

music is as tricky a mistress as everything else in a game, as was said "the music kicks in and you know an

emotional part is coming up" i think this is a good thing sometimes and a very bad thing sometimes.

let's take another harrison ford movie, Regarding Henry:

Spoiler

After he is shot obviously, he goes looking through some closests and comes apon a box of letters written to

his wife from a lover.

[close]

now there is NO music in this scene. why? because music would AUTOMATICALLY tip us off that something was going to

happen. for all we know he's just puttering around the house. The reveal of what is happening causes more emotion

than the music would ever because it takes us by surprise.

what i mean is that music can be just as stereotypical, "hmm i need to evoke emotion, i'll use some slow violins

and use a close up" instant stereotyped emotion. This isn't ideal and is mostly used in bad media and to me it's

instantly spotted and dismissed.

i enjoy when i don't have to feel lead around by the nose for emotion and the music i described above is just that,

so be carefull

lechuck: i don't think that you were really supposed to be afraid of lechuck. it was a comedy game and he was a

comic part of that game.

emotion: i feel that emotional content is very subjective and sometimes i've felt more emotion for the crappily

written 20 pixel high main characters of some AGI games and not for Guybrush. The connection you feel with the

story and character is so personal that a designer will never fully know how his players will react that is why

stereotypes are used so often. My friend Stieg and I are debating on how to create a game with no BAD guy, reading

through Philip K Dick's book there isn't really a bad guy and if there is you realize by the end that he's just a

guy like the main character, he means no ill will, they just don't agree.

by adding a stereotype you can easily tell the player "this man is bad! hate him, this is the love interest, get

awkwardly aroused at her! this is the main character his personality is toned down so you can easily inject

yourself into him."

then we move onto Myst with no main character and a shitty story. I did't feel anything for any of those people and

i definetly didn't feel any triumph when Attrus was all like "There I took care of them... Go away now."

Move onto Half Life [i know not an adventure game but it had more story telling than most games ever] No main

character but done well, sure he had a name at least but the first person view and the fact that he had no actual

personality made me feel more a part of the game world. I would have liked more options to define myself more as a

character [save this person, go out of my way to shut this down, not killing scientist and having it impact the

game more] my actions only changed the game world in how the game world wanted them to, like opening doors instead of character interaction.

Move onto Discworld, TOO much story for my tastes. Everyone had a LOT to say and they had no problem saying it in a poorly acted voice. The dialogue kept going and going and I felt bad skipping it but it pertained not to the game at all, just added to the humour of the characters and the world. Which is fine but... too much.

nonlinearity: i'm all for it, it's hard as hell to write for and can be done poorly. I don't think having a branching point at the end of a game is good. Like choose who lives or dies now!! If you're to have them they have to either be covertly happening with stats throughout the game or happening many times through the game. Under a Killing Moon...2 was it? Had multiple endings and they depended on dialog choices and actions as far as i remember. Alice In Wonderland and Below the Root had branching paths if only because talking nasty to someone may make them hate you for the rest of the game and you have to find another way through the game, and that was all the way back in the early 80's. I don't really know where I'm going with this sorry If it seems floaty.

To the emotion in cutscenes, again to bring up half life, i don't think control has to be taken from the player we just have to change our definition of cut scene, half life had "scripted sequences" which were pretty much cut scenes, unskipable moments where your actions were limited to walking around and listening to the actors act. Walking by a window and seeing just beyond it a man fighting with a headcrab, you can't save him and he eventually dies, or men falling to their doom in an elevator. These could have been cutscenes where we get all dramatic angles and crazy music but sticking to the players eyesight and the players field of view i think opened up all new levels of dramatic tension and emotion. how many times did i try and run to someone's aid as an alien in an air vent ate them, i knew that it was a scripted scene but i still tried a few times to get there before they died.

i'm gonna cut out here before i lose direction more than i already have

love,
eric

[Ginny]

I agree about it being a bad idea to have a distinct choice at the end, non-linearity, if present in a game, must be implemented throughout the whole game, and the choices you make affect what happens later on, and in the end.

As for Half-Life, especcially what you wrote in the end about pre-scripted scenes, made me very interested in this game, and I'm wondering wether it can work in and Adventure.

Also about cinematic methods being used to enchance emotion, you're right, being surprised by what happens is much more dramatic and emotional than being "warned" and "informed" of it before, with music etc.

Las, I've read the article and I see that in the example of Simon, the story (in the article writer's view) is presented as poor, the character as unfriendly and thus not someone players relate to. And despite that the player feels guilt for doing something because he feels he's doing it. However this guilt does not express the Uber Protagonist in my opinion, and the player feels guilty on his own account. Another factor for making him feel guilty is, IMO, the writing of a character, not the one of Simon, but that of Swamplin. His patheticness and sadness make you feel guilty for leaving him to his loneliness again, but you feel as if Simon doesn't even have something to do with it. Since you are, techniacally, the one who is dictating the action, Simon is just "the tool" in a way and you are responsible. You don't care about Simon, you care about Swamplin, you care about your own guilty concience. But what about other emotions, such as satisfaction for example? Is there apoint where you feel satisfied by something you've done in the game, if you don't care about the character whose doing it? Yes it's possible, if you care about something else. If you save someone as the character (even though he does it unwillingly) then you feel satisfaction because you did it. However if you don't care for the protagonist, and if for example, you do something which helps only him, you wouldn't really care, would you?
There are certain situations which, if the protagonist is caught in, makes you feel some sympathy with him.

I am reminded of Apprentice (if you haven't played it download it now! ), where a certain action made me feel guilty, and with a comment triggered by the look action, I could see that the protagonist felt guilty too, which made me relate to the protagonist and feel that we are together in this adventure. This was the part which made me feel most connected, even with the humorous story, to the protagonist. However it didn't make me feel like I am the character, and i'm not naturally. Of course, this still gets into the subconcience as I don't say the character performed the action (Manny talks to Eva) but instead myself (I talk to Eva). And this I feel is the way it should stay, because even if being one with the character makes you feel more immersed, you feel as if you, that is the protagonist, has no story, no real personality, since when playing a game you don't convert your personality to the character.

Another thing occured to me though, is the Uber Protagonist possible when there is more than one player character? Would you say, I lower the falg, or, Laverne lowers the flag? I think the former still, despite the fact that "I" may be reffering to any of the 3 characters. You could say: As Laverne, I lower the flag, which means you acknowledge "being" the character in question.

[plasticman]

Naranjas, excuse my curiosity, but did you play True Love ?
and if so, what did you think of it ?

great blargh, by the way. i'll spare you my comments though.

[Hobbes]

Eric, you're right on the melodramatic usage of music. The violin and close-up being a classic example.

But, as you put so perfectly: no music during that scene from Regarding Henry. Sometimes, silence can indeed have a much stronger effect than music.

I'm reminded now actually of "Saving Private Ryan". Sure, there was a lot of music in that movie. But not during the scenes at Normandy at the start of the movie.

The absence of music, the only sound that of a real battlefield helped make the movie something special.

But, music or no music, it is still the choice of the composer. If the composer chooses silence to help the scene, it is as much a conscious choice as having slow strings and a piano. If done properly, it gives a great effect.

But true, it isn't often done properly.

Now I really must sign off and get some bedrest.

[DGMacphee]

Rode:
The thing I liked about Indy was he had one major fault: He was afraid of snakes.

Lara doesn't have any faults, which is why she has the personality of an onion.

Eric:
Sometimes it's possible to have a game without a "villian", just like in some movies.

However, even I'm not that advanced to write such a story because it becomes harder to develop the tension and conflict in a game.

But the way I see it, sometimes the villian doesn't have to be human -- there are hundreds of examples where the villian is an animal, a river, a giant mountain, etc.

And sometimes, the hero's worst villian is himself.

That's a game I'd like to play: where the main character has to face his own destructive faults (like the film Raging Bull).




As for emotion in games:
Anyone remember that final scene in Grim Fandango?

Always brings a tear to my eye.

[Ginny]

Are you kidding, the GF ending is beatiful, wonderful, sad and happy at once, it's perfect!

[DGMacphee]

I never kid about Fandango.

Aye, it was a great ending and I think Ginny used the word I was going to use.

Perfect.

[Ginny]

Hehe, I meant when you asked "Anyone remember the..." heh, it's impossible to forget!

I just thought of what I said about mixed emotions, this sort of emotion provoking requires the player to really get involved with the game and characters, that he thinks deeply about what is happening and you feel many different emotions at once, all connected together, such as (spoiler):

Spoiler

Sadness (leaving Glottis), fear (of the unknown), happiness (because you saved all those people whose tickets were stolen, and Meche), and everything combined gives a genuine feeling, to which music is added for enhancement of the feeling.
There's also the fact that the game was som good that it's sad that it ended.

[close]

Ah.. *sigh*

[Trapezoid]

What about Pleurghblurgh? I think it succeeded in being a great game with its engrossing mystery storyline and puzzle design, but it didn't really have much emotion going for it, other than the thick sense of dread around the murder scenes. There's hardly any character development, but the game is incredible anyway.

[Bionic Bill]

As you said, Pleurghburg was a great game with little or no character development at all. So, I think, a game can certainly be good and not elicit some kind of emotional response from the player. The best ones tend to get you emotional somehow. I remember being horrified when Glottis went over the waterfall in GF.

Maybe good games are made even better by the icing-on-the-cake of genuinely high quality character development. Or maybe a terrible game could be made into a good one just by being written well. Maybe there's some kind of discernable difference between the strictly "game" aspect of a video game and the "story" aspect of it. And the best ones are great in both aspects.

Not to be down on Pleurghburg or anything, but imagine the same game with some kind of emotional context done well, where Jake McUrk isn't just the name of the player character, but also a discernable human being with individual motivations. If the character grew to be endeared by the player, and then was in some kind of dire peril, the perilousness would certainly increase for the player. Well, anyways. Blah blah blah and such.

[MrColossal]

while chrille's gone let's tear PB up! hehe

i think one of the most interesting things about PB is the dream Jake has after the first day

it shows that he's effected by the murders. if only there was more of this is could go into the Psychological Thriller section

[Gilbert]

I agree that there didn't seem to be much character development in PB, Jake doesn't seem to have much character, as with the others, Parker, etc. Not much is known about the bad guys either, even after you beated the game, they're just identical cold guys in a robes, that all of them looked the same.

It seemed.

In fact, what is good about this game is not how the characters' characters (hehe I like this phrase) were developed in the game, but instead how the player was affected and his involvement in the game. Like what eric typed, that dream was one part of it, the in game Jake didn't seemed to be much affected after that, neither in his actions nor his dialogs, but you, the player, can be affected by that sudden event IMO, that you yourself felt about it - the story, gameplay, excitements for those timing puzzles, that you got yourself involved in it, and of course, also the realistic gameplay (clicking elevator buttons, using the keys everytime, submiting evidences, etc.) helped the player to get INTO the game too.

[Las Naranjas]

Plasticman - yes, and most of what goes for Sakura goes with it as well, but the structure of Sakura made analysis easier.

Ginny - It's not so much bad writing in Simon's case as completely different intent. The example there is striking not because it's got an impact that outweighs the skill with which it was written, but the fact there is no intent to make a strong emotional impact. the Swamplin is, above all else, meant to be funny. It's patheticness is exacerbated (intentionally) to the level of farce. Were it to appear in a medium without interactivity, the emtoive impact felt would not exist. Yet as it does exist, and the text does have interactivity, I use it to add to the thesis that the entity between protagonist and player created by interactivity aids the emotional response.
I don't think you've quite gathered the concept that I was trying to impart, but hey.
---edit---
you many well retort that you as an individual would feel a smiliar feeling should the Swamplin be portrayed in another medium. This may well be true considering all the post structuralist schick that's tied into the concept. Importantly for many people the impact is notably different only when the are connected to the act, and brought into the medium. Thus the concept exists still because it makes a notable difference.

[Trapezoid]

As I said before, P:DA did one raw emotion very well-- the creepy sense dread in all of the murder scenes. A lot of it had to do with the music, and even the graphics.
The characters could've been a lot stronger though, and I know how. It's in the dialogue. It should've lightened up a bit, most of it was too business sounding. You need to have your characters voice their opinions, and constantly exude their personal sentiment. Unless it's part of their character to be docile, in which case they simply don't say much at all. When you understand what your characters are all about, emotion comes a lot easier.

[Ghormak]

I don't think there are any AGS games that have had me as immersed in the game universe as Pleurghburg has. While I'd have to agree with you that the character development in PB was mostly non-existant, I think he really managed to get the friendship between Lucas and Jake right. I could feel that they were good buddies.

That may explain why the most tense moment for me while playing PB was when

Spoiler

Lucas called (accompanied by that oh, so lovely and spooky music) and said there was somebody at his house.

[close]

Brilliant.

[DGMacphee]

Another thing about the Grim Fandango ending:

I felt sad because Manny was leaving me!

I enjoyed the great adventure with him that when the game reached the end, I thought "Man, that was such a great adventure that I wish it could keep going. But Manny has to go now. He's reached the end and deserved his peace. He's found eternal rest and I have to get on with my dull life now."

It's when you, as the player, have to wave goodbye to all your favourite characters that the game becomes emotionally successful.