Dragon's Pile of Treasure

[Scarab]

Hey all, I haven't posted anything in C&C for a while, but I really can't get my head around this problem.

I'm trying to draw a single frame from a cut-scene where the character first comes across a giant pile of treasure in a dragon's cave. I'm going for a low colour, stylised palette, and can't seem to get the texture/ composition right.

This is basically my thumbnail sketch of the composition I'm trying to achieve, with the silhouette in the foreground, and the ground around the pile fading into blackness:


This is the scale I'm trying to accomplish it at, and I'd have put more detail in it before posting here, but at this size I'm not even sure if the composition reads well, let alone the texture.


I really have no idea how to pull this off, and its rather specific to find any kind of tutorial out there.

Any help you can offer is appreciated,
Regards,
Scarab.

[Gilbert]

I don't know, but I think the thumbnail version looks fine, apart from the colour. The brownish colour makes the treasure look more like soil to me. I'd expect it to be more yellowish in colour, and since you're going for a "stylish" palette, if you don't want to change it, at least add more glitters to make it more shinny, just like the treasure in the dragon cave in Loom.

The smoothness of the large version (I know, it's lacking details atm) makes it look even more like piles of sand or soil. Possibly help in making them more grainy.

[Babar]

Piles would probably be more rounded than pointy-peaked, no?

Here are some references that might be of some help:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/loom/screenshots/gameShotId,88525/
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/hobbithague.gif
http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/hildebrandt/smaug.jpg
http://barrelrider.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/smaug3.jpg

[TheRoger]

I remember there were a pile of treasure with dragon in Heroes III

http://www.the-genies-lamp.com/images/H3_artwork/red_dragon2.jpg

I wonder why dragons need treasure pile? They don't buy stuff.

[Calin Leafshade]

Dragons use gold as bedding since they ignite traditional bedding like straw. Gold is a soft metal.

Nerd.

[TheRoger]

That surpasses my all physics/fantasy knowledge   

[Anian]

That surpasses my all physics/fantasy knowledge   

Then my friend you should at least watch Flight of dragons. 

[Calin Leafshade]

 

[FamousAdventurer77]

Hmm, it's a good start but aside from the other suggestions about color (I'm thinking a brighter yellow with yellow and white hues to emulate gold), the shape of the gold pile-- it looks pretty pointy. Maybe a little more squared-off to emulate coin stacks, or rounded for a loose pile of gold?

Why not throw a few gems in for a splash of color and the dragon diversifying its holdings?

[Monsieur OUXX]

My main critics is that if you go hi-res one should see the coins. the pile shouldn't look smooth like this.

I know it's a pain in the assperger syndrome, but you don't need to draw every single coin. Juste draw a coin pattern/tile/texture and repeat it.

For example you could boost the contrast of this, and de-res it. Or simply get you inspiraiton from it :




If you wish, apply it only to the pile's areas that are directly lit. Leave the dark parts with a plain color, that makes it even quicker.
And add a few glitters and sparkles here and there. And jewels if you want. Easy and quick recipe.

Oh, and when you draw your coins pattern, make sure at least a few coins are seen from the side, with a gradient clearly showing that ther're round:

[Scarab]

Hey guys, Thanks for all the feedback.

I completely re-drew it, trying to take in all the suggestions you guys made.



@Gilbot:
I wasn't at all married to the palette from my previous image, although I am fond of the 'noticeably restricted and unrealistic palette' look. In this version I more or less doubled the colour count. Better?

@Babar, TheRoger:
Thanks for the references guys, the one that particularly got me thinking was the one from the EGA version of Loom, because it was the only one that managed to sell the look with similar restrictions to mine. I pretty much tried to emulate the texture of the gold from this scene:
(Click for full size)

@FamousAdventurer77, Monsieur Ouxx:
You both spoke about colour and texture, which I tried to improve upon. I'm not 100% satisfied with the texture, although hopefully the coin stacks and the treasure items read well enough to sell it.
The contrast possibly still needs some work also.


So, thoughts on the latest version?
As always, any input is appreciated.

Regards,
Scarab.

[R4L]

Your newest version is superior to your original in every way. However, might just be my monitor, but I can't distinguish the shadowing on the pile of treasure without squinting and really focusing on it. Just one little tidbit though.

[Anian]

Much better, except maybe add in a few more "towers" of coins in the middle part of the pile, not just on the edges. Also add a few coins that separated from the pile (like 1-3 coins) here and there.
Those swords could be sticking out more, so they make the silhouette a bit more interesting (more "towers" of coins in the middle will help with that as well). And just as a detail, so there's more colors in teh pile, add maybe a skull somewhere, skulls are always cool. 

And yes, this looks waaay better than the original, as in that first one didn't really look like a pile of gold.

Maybe extra refference from CoMI: http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/monkeyisland/mi3-18.png

[Babar]

Actually, I'm not sure "towers" or columns of coins make any sense, certainly not in the centre of the pile. If it belongs to a dragon, it might sit on top of it (and thus mess up any columns that may have been there originally), but it's not going to spend it's time (or probably even be able) to be piling it up in columns.

Also, the columns you have right now seem to be a different shade of yellow? If you are going to have columns, I'd suggest they be a lot more haphazard and scattered around, but if you remove them, you should probably up the contrast (and increase the "noise" or sharp edges showing) on the rest of the pile, because without them, it may possible just look like a pile of sand.

PS: I can't seem to remember that screen from Monkey Island 3 at all :O

[Anian]

Actually, I'm not sure "towers" or columns of coins make any sense, certainly not in the centre of the pile. If it belongs to a dragon, it might sit on top of it (and thus mess up any columns that may have been there originally), but it's not going to spend it's time (or probably even be able) to be piling it up in columns.

PS: I can't seem to remember that screen from Monkey Island 3 at all :O

Well, yeah, if it sleeps, then the colums should be small, but still present near the edges.

And it seems your copy of CoMI needs another playthrough. 

[Khris]

Since I also wanted to point this out but Babar did first I'm going to do so now: why would there be stacked coins in the first place, no matter how high?
The dragon doesn't stack them and nobody else is around, and when he brings loot back home, wouldn't he simply drop it?

I'd ditch those stacks completely unless the dragon has OCD or something.

[R4L]

Since I also wanted to point this out but Babar did first I'm going to do so now: why would there be stacked coins in the first place, no matter how high?
The dragon doesn't stack them and nobody else is around, and when he brings loot back home, wouldn't he simply drop it?

I'd ditch those stacks completely unless the dragon has OCD or something.

Maybe part of the story is that the dragon just guards someone elses treasure.

If you play Dragon's Lair (and actually are good enough to get to the last battle) in the arcade or laserdisc versions, you fight a dragon in what looks like a sea of gold. There's gold stacked everywhere.

Like I said, maybe part of the reason is to maybe expand the story? 

[Scarab]

Okay, latest revision:


Notes:

• I added another shade for depth, and used it to hint at at a more irregular shape for the pile.
  
• Added a few piles if 2 and other loose coins around the base of the pile.
  
• Tried to break up the silhouette with the sword, chalice and stacks at the rear.
  

I was initially reluctant to add stacks in the middle, fearing it they would make the while thing look to rigid, rather than a relatively loose pile of coins, but I tried to add them at flat-looking areas, or in 'valleys', wedged between two 'mounds', and I think the added irregularity to the outline is enough to outweigh the unreal-ism. Thoughts?

With regards to stacks of coins being unlikely in the first place, I think that may be reading into the whole thing a bit too closely. I think they do an important job at this resolution and detail to define the content, surely if I took them away, we would be faced with the original 'it looks like sand' readability issue?

I think this is getting close to done, but I'm still unsure how to go about shading it correctly, as I traced this from a pencil drawing, where everything was defined with lines, and the look I'm going for is, I think, called 'oekaki' with the shapes defined by volumes and textures alone.

Also, adding the sword in the background, does that steal all the attention, as though that was the prize to be sought? I've been staring at the pixels for too long to be able to read the composition any more , so  a fresh set of eyes on this would be a great help.

Thanks again for all the feedback so far, guys. Keep it coming! 

Regards,
Scarab.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Looks like you're a bit afraid to use some color variation here, and with a pile of treasure some color variation is not only warranted but a pleasant distraction from all the gold.  I went ahead and altered the colors a bit, added some more, as well as 'amped up' the treasure trove to look like there's a hoard of treasure, not only that we can see, but in the distance as well, and you could extend the shadows back as far as you wanted to, really.

1.  Adjusted gold contrast to have a more burnished gold and less pure yellow appearance.

2.  Made the stacks of coins look more defined.

3.  Added a short range for blue, green, and silver to add some gems and detail to the treasure.

4.  Expanded the treasure into the background.

5.  Aliased the edges of the purple boundary and added more coins and things to make it look less barren.





Things I would do:

ditch the black background (unless this is going to be an object inserted somewhere) and make this part of a scene.  Even if poorly lit, if we can see a huge pile of treasure we should be able to see scenery around it.  I'd probably add even more variation to the treasure and higher hills as it went into the background to signify something really impressive.  I'd also do something with the purple area, whether to alter it to look more like the ground or perhaps a burnt section of carpet with some royal lining here and there so it doesn't look so bland.

Aside from that, the edits should give you some ideas for improving the overall look.  Another thing you can consider is to 'animate' the gold with around 4 frams where certain coins or gems flash in the light as a background animation.

Khris- according to most lore, Dragons are obsessed with counting their hoard and take great pleasure in knowing precisely how much wealth they have up to the last coin, and stacks are easier to count than a loose pile.  You can see a bit of this carry over in books like The Hobbit, where Smaug is intimately aware that Bilbo has stolen from him even without seeing him do so.  The whole notion of a Dragon stealing treasure for the sole purpose of bedding is rather ridiculous on its face, so arguing about something like this is silly all around.. 

[Scarab]

 :o
Wow! I can't even... just wow!
That's amazing Progz!
I'll get right on seeing if I can replicate that.

In regards to the black background:
It's not for a gameplay cutscene, but rather one of several imaged to be displayed during the credits, and doubling as a final cut-scene for what happens in the plot after the final puzzle is solved. I wanted to use black so as not to take up too much screen real-estate, and to imply more depth than I could draw (Which you seem to have picked up on by adding further layers in the background.)

In regards to your comment about being afraid to use colour variation:
Yes, this is true, as my initial inspiration for doing th credits this way was taken from Cave Story:
And 6 Days A Sacrifice.

Although I only realised later that this style was better suited to images based on recognisable characters and imaged based on simple shapes, rather than an amorphous blob.

As such, now I'm open to the final product being anything I can put on a reasonable scope (If only I could match the quality of yours. Although, then I'd be kicking myself for only putting them in for a couple of seconds each  )

I like the idea about animated sparkling, which could probably even be done dynamically. I'll see what I can come up with.

Regards,
Scarab.