Topic: The future of AGS - part two

[Wyz]

I'm going to open a new topic for this since the discussion in the old one is still pretty much continuing.
CJ said in his talk at the AdventureX he will most likely not have time to lead AGS any more. That sucks, but we have to try to keep things moving. That is the reason for this topic:


There are two functions to fill in:

Community leader
You will be the new face of AGS. You need to be a common figure in the realm of AGS for this, but you don't need to have any technical knowledge, nor do you need to know how to program. You do need to be fair to everyone, reliable and generally a likeable guy. You will partake into making the wishes of the community concrete. You will delegate this wishes possibly to the technical lead (see below). You will be the go-to guy. Be there to talk to the press, but also resolve issues in the community. You'll need to be around on the forums, make announcements, have a motivational speech at the AGS awards, and generally more events. You can not have a hidden agenda, or "do your own thing" obviously. This position is all about the community.

Technical lead
You will be the vector in AGS development. You need to have a affinity for computers and know how they work in a broad scheme. You'll need to know how to program but more important, know how to keep code bases tidy. You need to know about all the platforms out there and not be restricted to just the one. You need to be able to recognise a good design and a bad one even before it is in production. Also you will be in charge of keeping all code consistent, deciding what is best to be left to plugins or what should be put in the engine itself. Also mind naming and coding conventions. The direction the project should go you will hear from the community and more likely from the community leader. This position is about maintaining an active code base.

Lets all do two things:
1. Are you available for this postion: Yes/No, to what extend
2. Are there any persons you like to nominate

This is by no means a vote, it is simply making an inventory.

[Sslaxx]

Community leader
1. Are you available for this position: Not if I can help it. I really, really doubt I have the (especially people) skills for this one. So I'd do this only as the "extreme last resort". If, by a universe-destroying level of improbability I did get this, it would be only for exactly long enough to find someone - anyone - who could do a better job.
2. Are there any persons you like to nominate: Well, anyone would be better than I really, but especially Calin Leafshade, Wyz, Monkey_05_06, Dave and Janet Gilbert.

Technical lead
1. Are you available for this position: Yes, I'd be up for this one. I admit my knowledge on Mac OS X is minimal, and not helped by not owning a Mac, but I'd certainly be keen to pick this one up. My primary coding interests lie within Linux, but Win32/Win64 wouldn't be impossible either. Done some tinkering with Allegro (3.x, 4.x) and SDL, certainly keen to take those forward. No knowledge of C#, but I'd go learn it if it would help.
2. Are there any persons you like to nominate: Monkey_05_06, GarageGothic, AJA, tzachs, JJS, Wyz.

[Calin Leafshade]

Community leader
1. Are you available for this position: Technically yes but I feel others (including sslaxx and monkey) would be better suited.
2. Are there any persons you like to nominate: m0ds, GarageGothic, Khris, Monkey_05_06, sslaxx

Technical lead
1. Are you available for this position: No, my skills are not to an acceptable level.
2. Are there any persons you like to nominate: Wyz, Sslaxx, Bero, JJS

[Peder 🚀]

Community leader:
1. No.
2. Monkey_05_06, Ponch, dualnames, m0ds.

Technical lead:
1. No.
2. Wyz, Bero, Sslaxx, JJS

[qptain Nemo]

Community leader:
1. No.
2. Dualnames, m0ds, bicilotti

Technical lead:
1. No.
2. Wyz, Sslaxx

[Chicky]

Community leader:
1. I'd love to but, no.
2. Dualnames, Monkey_05_06, Bicilotti, m0ds, Ghost, 304, Darth.

Technical lead:
1. No.

[Snarky]

Mmm... I envisioned the "community lead" (or project lead) post to be more organizational, less figurehead-y. I'm not sure we need a separate person to just wave and smile at the AGS Awards, you know? Especially since the website and forums are still run by CJ, so the scope of this role seems rather limited if it's mainly focused on outward-facing communication. I thought the project lead would handle the internal communication, make sure contributors worked towards a common goal (essentially staying on top of the developers, resolving disagreements etc.), possibly run the source repositories. I don't think this person needs to be hugely technical, but he or she should be able to, for example, build AGS from source, no?

So I would suggest having a project lead who is mainly organizational (not promotional), defining the overall design goals for AGS based on input from the community and developers, and then technical leads for the various aspects: editor, engine, Mac/Linux/Android/iOS ports. (Though one person could in principle be responsible for multiple aspects.)

Anyway, as the poll now stands:

Community Lead: Dave Gilbert, monkey_05_06, Calin, Ali, ThreeOhFour, Ponch
Technical Lead: Wyz (and I'm sure many others, but I have no idea about their technical skills)

(Edit: Added Dave Gilbert since he's a candidate again)

[Babar]

community leader:
1. No
2. m0ds, bicilotti, Wyz, Sslaxx, DaveGil

Technical Lead:
1. No
2. monkey, dkh, sslaxx, Wyz

[Dualnames]

Community leader:
1. No
2. m0ds, bicilotti, Wyz, Dave Gilbert, monkey_05_06, Ben304, Gilbetv7000a

Technical Lead:
1. No
2. Wyz, dkh

[miguel]

Community Leader:
1.No
2.mOds,Khris,Darth Mandarb

Techical Lead:
1.No
2.whoever from the list of tech guys around that has more time in hands, I think it should be a team, not a person.

[RickJ]

Selecting a community leader, I fear, is somewhat akin to selecting the leader of the universe.  Anyone smart enough to do it really wouldn't want to and anyone who wanted to is therefore unqualified. 

Community leader:
1. No
2. Dave Gilbert, m0ds, Gilbetv7000a/IcebotyV7000a, AJA, Khris, Darth

Technical Lead:
1. No
2. Wyz, dkh, sslaxx, JanetGil, monkey,  Bero

[Ponch]

Community leader:
1. No
2. Dave Gilbert, Darth, m0ds, Tzachs, SSH, Monkey, Ben, Bici, Limpingfish, Duals, Peder

Technical Lead:
1. No
2. DaveJan, Gilbet, Darth, Wyz, RickJ, Tzachs, Kweepa

I second RickJ's sentiment. Anyone who wants the stress and thankless nature of either of these jobs shouldn't be allowed to have them.

[Guybrush Nosehair]

I think we all know who'll best fit both jobs here... S3 (aka Iceygames)...

[Wyz]

Community leader
1. No, I lack the social skills.
2. m0ds, bicilotti, gilbetv7000a, Atelier, Babar, ghost, Ponch, Darth, ben304, Baron, Dualnames, abstauer... I might have forgotten people.
I'm not sure about Dave yet, because it is just as important for AGS that he does a good job running his company and the community should not become a burden for him.

Technical lead
1. Yes, but I don't think I'd be able to pipe out code as much as others, I'm simply already very busy and that is not likely to change soon. But then again, if there are people supporting me I might be able to do it.
2. It is hard to really make a list since I don't really know what skills people posses but here goes:
gilbetv7000a, kweepa, subspark, ProgZMax, monkey¹, Sslaxx², Snarky, dkh, Monsieur OUXX, GarageGothic
Off topic but I feel to need to name a few people that I think would do a great job on different parts of development:
The editor: Calin, Tzach, helios123
Maintianing portability for certain platforms in the main branch: JJS, bero, timofonic, clarvalon, Denzil Quixode

¹) You might not be comfortable with C++ yet but hey you'll be eventually, and if you need help just ask me. Actually that offer holds for everyone.
²) Though I hope you agree it is all about pleasing the community and not nesscesary the technical staff.

[tzachs]

There are so many good candidates available, I tried to narrow down my list to a few selected people that proven to me the most that they're capable at co-ordinating big projects while remaining team players (for the "Community Leader") and people which have technical knowledge, devotion and an ability to see the big picture (for the "Tech Leader").

So:
Community Leader:
1. No.
2. Baron, Ponch, Dave, Ben

Technical Leader:
1. No.
2. Snarky, Wyz, Khris, Monkey, Calin

[Secret Fawful]

I nominate monkey_05_06 for everything.

[LGM]

I see a lot of votes for m0ds. If he's elected, we'll never get ANYTHING done...

I just came here to make that joke. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful. I'm curious to see where this all goes!

[m0ds]

Oh a FoY joke? Hilarious Andrew. Never heard one before  But thank you... and good to see you!

Community leader
1. Yes, I'm happy to give it a shot, at least in the short term. I'd certainly be interested in forming a team & a strategy at least whilst we sort out CJ's previous responsibilities and find folks to fill them for now, get things well oiled etc.
2. Bicilotti, Ponch, Grundislav, but in terms of a team there are 30 people I could mention maybe more who I know would bring something great to the plate.
I'd certainly give Dualnames a biscuit

Tech lead
1. No, beyond me, but I can certainly help prioritize and push the demands.
2. Gilbot, Wyz, Monkey, Calin, SteveMcRea, DaveGil, to lead another great team!

[monkey0506]

Fawful, your opinion doesn't count. You're a personal friend.

Community Leader:

1. Yes. I'm currently working near- to full-time position in a call center. My employment has no external obligation that would take of my time beyond my scheduled hours. I am willing to devote of my time regularly (at least 4-5 days a week) toward this role. I don't have prior experience in a role quite like this, but I am confident in my abilities.

2. Calin, Darth, and Dave already indicated that they don't feel they would really be the best fit for this position. Other than them I would say...m0ds. He hasn't turned it down yet.

Technical Lead:

1. No, I don't feel that I have the technical skill (read as: appropriate knowledge of C++, portability, endianness, etc.) to take on this role at this time. I'd certainly love to help out, but I don't think I should take the leading role here.

2. Wyz. And tzachs already turned it down.




Something I think everyone should probably be keeping in mind is we're just nominating/electing leaders not entire teams. Some people seem to be confusing that. Particularly with the technical lead, it's highly unlikely that one person is going to take on the sole responsibility of refactoring the code and updating it in a timely enough fashion to meet our current needs. Certainly with AGS remaining open-source anyone can help out with code, but the role of the technical lead, would be to organize the implementation, helping make decisions what gets built into the trunk, etc.

At least that's my understanding.

[LimpingFish]

As Snarky has said, the "Community Leader" position seems a bit vague at the moment (though thanks for the vote of confidence, Ponch!).

If it's in regards to maintaining the forums and such, then I'd certainly put myself forward for something like that. But if it means becoming the "public face" of AGS...man, that's a role I wouldn't envy anyone.

So, leaving aside "Community", I'm going to lay it out as such:

Project Leader (the person I would like to see in charge of organizing and running the development process): Dave Gilbert, Snarky, m0ds, Gilbet, Bicilotti, Andail...

Technical (people I would like to see take on significant roles in the coding of AGS): Kweepa, Calin, Monkey, Tzachs, 304, Ali, ProgZmax...

[Secret Fawful]

If not monkey, then I pick someone entirely out of left field for community leader.

Yahtzee. Even if he hates you bastards.

[Ali]

This is like a polite, much less Arabic, version of the Arab Spring.

Can I suggest that the key thing missing from Wyz's role outlines is terms of office?

Perhaps the Community Leader ought to be re-elected on a yearly basis, while the Technical Leader should be a more substantial commitment to allow long-term goals to be achieved. Two years? Five Years? Indefinitely?

If the Community Leader's job is to co-ordinate new ideas and look to the future, it's important for them to be re-evaluated at regular intervals.

(And thanks to Snarky and Limping Fish for overestimating my organisational and coding skills, respectively!)

[m0ds]

I agree. And maybe the AGS awards are a good period to time the vote, as everyone is usually around then.

[Atelier]

Community leader:
1. Not interested.
2. Darth, bicilotti, m0ds, monkey

Technical lead:
1. No.
2. Wyz, Sslaxx

On the subject of re-election: I think it's a good idea, to ensure the community and technical lead doesn't stagnate. But it may mean debates on who has time, who is more suited, and all the intricacies of forum politics are just repeated in the lead up to every election, as we can see in the first thread. This would just be a waste of time and only take us back to squabbling at square one.

I don't think either role (especially like you say Ali the technical lead) should be 'reshuffled' just for the sake of electing somebody new; suppose somebody is gaining their stride at the end of their term and they have and want to bring much more to the table? They should be reelected just to follow protocol? The flip-side of that is if somebody has too many other commitments and can't take on the role anymore. Then an election would be more suitable, so the leader could just pass the baton to somebody else.

So although it is a good idea in principle, I don't think incumbents should be constrained by 'terms of office' to get things done and then the whole process of election is repeated again and again. Such periodical elections can only result in a disjointed AGS, with no uniform vision because that vision is ever-changing - everybody has slightly different opinions on the future of AGS, that much is clear. What we really need now is to elect people as if the election is permanent. Two, three, or however many years down the line, when the community can see how this all pans out, then it would be the time to decide whether to hold regular elections.

[Ali]

I see your point, however whoever takes over from CJ won't actually be CJ. They won't be the sole author of the software, the benevolent autocrat we love so well.

I also hope that whoever take these roles now will stick with them for a good long while... However, if people became dissatisfied with the leadership in the future, it would be much better to have an election than a .

I see a election being a slightly formal way of avoiding the nastier side of forum politics.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I think that rather than suggest choices for a community leader there should be a discussion first about whether or not it's even a good idea.  I will side with Snarky and Limpingfish (and whoever I happened to miss) that this community leader thing isn't vital to the future of ags and I will go a step farther and say it's completely unnecessary.  We're in no danger of drying up and turning into a ghost town and we certainly won't benefit from a talking head that's pretending to be speaking for such a large and diverse community when in fact he/she will be speaking for themself.  The only person who ever could speak for this community without any suspicions would be CJ himself because he began this community years ago with a WIP dos program to make adventure games.

As far as a project manager for the open source builds of ags go, I have already endorsed Dave Gilbert for this role and he has expressed interest, so unless he decides he doesn't want to do it, you know who I'm going with.

[Calin Leafshade]

well i feel that 'community' leader is a poor choice of words.

In reality we just need someone to coordinate the programming efforts, thats all.

[Wyz]

Interessting points all but for the sake of clarity could you please move the discussion to the other topic?
I see I've skipped a few things in my hasty enthusiasm, but this topic is simply meant as an accumulation of data.

Thanks!

[Baron]

I like the idea of a quaint and benign figurehead who just has to sit up straight and waive slowly to the adoring crowds.  But, as many people have pointed out, the reality is that CJ still exists and surely has enough time to be a mere figurehead?

I propose two fluid committees under the distant supervision of CJ, who is still possessed enough of his faculties and the spirit of what AGS is and should be to remain our lord and sovereign.  Each committee can elect its own chair as required, and should have rough guidelines for membership renewal.  The structure would look like this (in ASCII):

                                                                    CJ
                          (Functions: guardian of the spirit of AGS, sage advisor, dispute resolution)
                                                                     |
                                                                     |
                                                               Viceroy (appointed by CJ to fill in for him, if he sees fit)
                          (Functions: filling in for CJ if he doesn't have time, not necessarily a full-time position)
                                                                     |
                                                                   /  
                                    _______________/     \____________________
                                    |                                                                            |
                  Community Committee                                          Technical Committee
  (Functions: WebPage Design &                 (Functions: Editor/Engine Redesign & Upgrades,
 Moderation, Community Events, Awards,             Making AGS more portable (editor and especially games)
 Promotion of AGS, Organizing Workshops,          Fixing bugs, Visioning & Actualizing the technical evolution of
 Offering Direction for AGS to evolve from             AGS in the future, Coordinating technical expertise and contributions)
 a community/user perspective, Meets)

      The committees (or councils, or witans, or things, or [insert sexy term here]) would be composed of equals, with a chairman elected by members only as a means of giving someone the executive recognition to push for progress.  So many constituencies have so much vested in AGS that I think attempting to yoke only one person with the authority to "make it work" like CJ did is asking for trouble and disappointment.  I say spread the load, get multiple enthusiastic minds together and let them work out (in a less messy and public way than in the open forums) the direction to move forward, and the way to actualize this.  Terms should be fixed at one or two years, and members elected at large (in practice it will often be the same people unless they really mess up in the minds of the community).

-----------------
EDIT:

Interessting points all but for the sake of clarity could you please move the discussion to the other topic?
I see I've skipped a few things in my hasty enthusiasm, but this topic is simply meant as an accumulation of data.

Thanks!

Oh.
Community Leader
1. No.
2. No.
Technical Leader
1. No.
2. No.

[Ascovel]

I won't vote for any particular person. I feel most of the so far proposed candidates are great (though overly modest) and I don't really feel competent to judge the competence and enthusiasm of any one of them over that of another.

That's also one of the reasons I proposed some kind of triumvirate - so that several exceptional  AGSers have equal privileges instead of being stuck into a hierarchy. I'm not particularly keen on one specific person (other than CJ) becoming "the face of AGS" - it should feel like a community project as much as possible.

[Snarky]

Sort of along Baron's lines, I think we should have one single Project Manager, but make that a substantial role that includes driving the development forward (even if it's not primarily a technical job that involves delving into the AGS source). Whether we also need a technical lead, or just leads for the various components (editor, engine, ports), and whether that lead should be picked by the community at large or by contributors to the development is harder to say. I tend to think that it would work itself out as people take on more or less active roles in the development. We could assign someone for the interim, and let the development team work it out from there.

I think Ali's idea for terms of office is a good one. As long as people are happy with the current project leadership they'd almost certainly be reelected as a matter of course, and it would offer people an opportunity to step down if they're tired of the responsibility, or maybe have people rotate through the roles, Putin-style. Also, if things aren't working out, for whatever reason, it's much less messy to make a change this way, rather than having to organize petitions and all that, which is guaranteed to turn nasty and personal. As m0ds says, the AGS Awards would be a good occasion to hold elections (and the awards ceremony an opportunity for an official inauguration).

Having a group of people act as project leads could work, if they generally agree. And I guess in a triumvirate you'd always have a tie-breaking vote in case of disagreements. But I think having one person "in charge" would be fine, too; hopefully that person would still consult with others anyway. The drawback with a triumvirate is that they might potentially end up as a cabal, more accountable to each other than to the community. ("We three all agree, so that's how it's going to be, no matter what the rest of you say.")

Oh, and since some people have unaccountably mentioned my name, I'll repeat that I'm not a candidate.

[Snarky]

(Double-post to bump)

I've tried to tally up the nominations so far, just to get a sense of where the community is leaning. In cases where people didn't follow the voting format, I had to interpret their intent. I also added in clear "votes" from the other thread, in cases where that poster didn't post in this thread (this added two votes for Dave and one for Calin). I don't guarantee that these numbers are 100% precise (a couple of times I lost track of whether I'd counted a vote or not), but they are pretty close; sorry for any mistakes. I'm only listing those candidates nominated by at least two people:

Community Leader / Project Manager
m0ds (willing) - 13
Dave Gilbert (willing*) - 12
monkey_05_06 (willing) - 9
bicilotti (undeclared) - 9
Darth Mandarb (unwilling) - 7
Ben 304 (undeclared) - 6
Dualnames (unwilling) - 5
Ponch (unwilling) - 5
Calin Leafshade (willing**) - 4
Gilbot (undeclared) - 4
Wyz (unwilling) - 3
Sslaxx (willing***) - 2
Ghost (undeclared) - 2
Khris (undeclared) - 2
Baron (unwilling) - 2

* Dave Gilbert had said he and Janet were not the right persons for the job when most of the voting took place, but later reconsidered.
** Calin Leafshade had previously withdrawn his candidacy, but reconsidered before most of the voting took place.
*** While willing, Sslaxx expressed strong reluctance to by Community Leader.

Technical Lead
Wyz (willing) - 12
monkey_05_06 (unwilling) - 8
Sslaxx (willing) - 6
tzachs (unwilling) - 4
dkh (undeclared) - 3
Bero (willing) - 3
Gilbot (undeclared) - 3
JJS (undelcared) - 3
Kweepa (undeclared) - 3
Calin Leafshade (unwilling) - 3
GarageGothic (undeclared) - 2
Janet Gilbert (undeclared) -2
ProgZmax (undeclared) - 2
Dave Gilbert (unwilling*) - 2
Snarky (unwilling) - 2

* Dave Gilbert emphasized that he was only interested in the Project Manager position if it was not too technical, from which I infer he's not interested in the Technical Lead position.

[Ghost]

Ghost (undeclared) - 2

Since I can't predict how much time I'll have on my hands in the near future: Not possible.
But thanks for the confidence- though I really think there are much more likely candidates.

[Alan v.Drake]

So, m0ds PM and Wyz TL. I approve.

- Alan

[monkey0506]

Regarding the position of Technical Lead, I wouldn't call myself "unwilling" so much as just "I don't know if I'm the right person for the job, as there are clearly people around who have more experience in certain important areas of the job than myself."

I'd definitely be willing to be Assistant to the Technical Lead or something to that effect (and yes, that's at least partially a reference to The Office).

[Snarky]

Regarding the position of Technical Lead, I wouldn't call myself "unwilling" so much as just "I don't know if I'm the right person for the job, as there are clearly people around who have more experience in certain important areas of the job than myself."

I'd definitely be willing to be Assistant to the Technical Lead or something to that effect (and yes, that's at least partially a reference to The Office).

OK, great. That sounds like a good solution to me.

Willing/unwilling was just shorthand for whether someone was willing, interested and felt themselves to be qualified and likely to have time to fill the role. I can change it if you want.

So, m0ds PM and Wyz TL. I approve.

This wasn't a vote, just a kind of straw poll. I said earlier that the leading PM candidates should give their pitch for how they'd envision their role and plan to manage AGS. If we take the cutoff at half the votes of the highest-ranked candidate, and Darth isn't in the running, we have four front-runners. If I remember correctly, we've heard from monkey and Dave; it would be good to hear what m0ds has to say, and if bicilotti is even interested. Then, maybe they can discuss whether they want to share the responsibility in some way, or whether we need to make it an oppositional contest.

The technical leadership doesn't seem quite so contested. Again using the same approach, maybe Wyz, monkey and Sslaxx can discuss how to divide the responsibilities, and whether one of them should technically have the title of Technical Lead.

I posted a link to a history of ScummVM, which describes how they organized project leadership in their case. My impression is that they always shared responsibility and authority among groups of 2-4 people, even if one of them was technically "in charge". I think that would be a good model to follow.

I think it's fair to say that some things haven't run all that smoothly around here since CJ stopped hanging around (with forums going down on a regular basis and things like that), and so maybe it would be better if stuff like admin access to source repositories, bug trackers etc. weren't only in one person's hand.

[Radiant]

This wasn't a vote, just a kind of straw poll. I said earlier that the leading PM candidates should give their pitch for how they'd envision their role and plan to manage AGS. If we take the cutoff at half the votes of the highest-ranked candidate, and Darth isn't in the running, we have four front-runners.

That sounds like a reasonable way to proceed.

[Calin Leafshade]

This wasn't a vote, just a kind of straw poll. I said earlier that the leading PM candidates should give their pitch for how they'd envision their role and plan to manage AGS. If we take the cutoff at half the votes of the highest-ranked candidate, and Darth isn't in the running, we have four front-runners.

That sounds like a reasonable way to proceed.

Agreed.

[m0ds]

Sure, I started writing a "charter" as it were for the future direction I have in mind and I'll finish it up for next week. Bici is thinking about it, btw.

[voh]

We're all so grown up

I'm content with the votes so far - I'd've voted wyz, monkey and mods anyway.

Looking forward to how this plays out!

[Wyz]

Time to wrap this topic up!

(...)

This wasn't a vote, just a kind of straw poll. I said earlier that the leading PM candidates should give their pitch for how they'd envision their role and plan to manage AGS. If we take the cutoff at half the votes of the highest-ranked candidate, and Darth isn't in the running, we have four front-runners. If I remember correctly, we've heard from monkey and Dave; it would be good to hear what m0ds has to say, and if bicilotti is even interested. Then, maybe they can discuss whether they want to share the responsibility in some way, or whether we need to make it an oppositional contest.

The technical leadership doesn't seem quite so contested. Again using the same approach, maybe Wyz, monkey and Sslaxx can discuss how to divide the responsibilities, and whether one of them should technically have the title of Technical Lead.

I posted a link to a history of ScummVM, which describes how they organized project leadership in their case. My impression is that they always shared responsibility and authority among groups of 2-4 people, even if one of them was technically "in charge". I think that would be a good model to follow.

I think it's fair to say that some things haven't run all that smoothly around here since CJ stopped hanging around (with forums going down on a regular basis and things like that), and so maybe it would be better if stuff like admin access to source repositories, bug trackers etc. weren't only in one person's hand.

Thanks for your sum up and I must say I agree, lets divide the responsibilities over a number of people. There is no need for a supreme authority, heck this project will feel like a side quest compared to what CJ has done over the years. Let's say we need a happy bunch of volunteers to see if we can make it work, no privileges, no responsibilities (except for your own).

m0ds and bicilotti have already been discussing the first position I named. They may be willing to take part in this position (or a more different one, since I described it rather peculiar). As for the second one, I might take part in it, but I'm waiting for the first position to crystallize. So yes, we're getting there.

Thanks all for your time! And thanks Snarky for your summary, it was really helpful.