Author Topic: Hard Brexit: what consequences?  (Read 5268 times)

Ali

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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #40 on: 04 Sep 2019, 09:37 »
No, not a conspiracy, and whether it is undemocratic depends on your interpretation of that word. I value direct democracy over parliamentary democracy, which is why I view referendums and direct votes by the people as being more valuable than the parliaments decisions, as it allows people to directly voice an opinion on a singular topic.

This all sounds eminently reasonable, and of course the UK's democracy is archaic and full of absurdities. But your direct democracy sounds to me like the tyranny of the mob. It's interesting to note that almost all of the European direct democracy parties I can find are right-wing libertarians or far-right. Many seem to be populist anti-immigration parties, like the far-right AfD.

Your direct democracy would be a nightmare for minority rights. How can (for instance) gay people, trans people or immigrant communities defend their rights, when they could never hope to hold a majority in a referendum? You're calling for more democracy, but what you're proposing is a world in which the majority can trample over marginalised people. And this is why your posts make me angrier than Jack's incoherent conspiracies, because you present far-right authoritarian positions as if they were moderate.

Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #41 on: 04 Sep 2019, 10:01 »
No, not a conspiracy, and whether it is undemocratic depends on your interpretation of that word. I value direct democracy over parliamentary democracy, which is why I view referendums and direct votes by the people as being more valuable than the parliaments decisions, as it allows people to directly voice an opinion on a singular topic.

This all sounds eminently reasonable, and of course the UK's democracy is archaic and full of absurdities. But your direct democracy sounds to me like the tyranny of the mob. It's interesting to note that almost all of the European direct democracy parties I can find are right-wing libertarians or far-right. Many seem to be populist anti-immigration parties, like the far-right AfD.

Your direct democracy would be a nightmare for minority rights. How can (for instance) gay people, trans people or immigrant communities defend their rights, when they could never hope to hold a majority in a referendum? You're calling for more democracy, but what you're proposing is a world in which the majority can trample over marginalised people. And this is why your posts make me angrier than Jack's incoherent conspiracies, because you present far-right authoritarian positions as if they were moderate.

Exactly this. This romanticization of "the will of the people" against "the corrupt elites" is literal Populism, and results in situations like Matt's in which people end up voting for stuff whose consequences they don't understand because they've been manipulated, lied to, not given enough information or given contradictory "facts". The rule of the mob indeed.

(I can't understand how Ireland decided that the best way to decide whether to legalize same-sex marriage was through a referendum, like wtf seriously... having people vote whether their fellow citizens should have the same rights as them? Boggles the mind and it's scary to see that it was a 60-40 split, i.e., almost half the population decided that nah, you can't have the same rights as us because fuck you, that's why.)

Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #42 on: 04 Sep 2019, 10:44 »
Agreed, this kind of mob rule is absurd, especially when it comes to policies that should be based on scientific facts. Imagine the regulation of homeopathy or policies regarding climate change are decided by referendum. No thank you.

And given how targeted and successful the influencing of people on social media is, why would anybody trust the "wisdom of the masses"?
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2019, 10:51 by Khris »
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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #43 on: 04 Sep 2019, 11:24 »
Exactly this. This romanticization of "the will of the people" against "the corrupt elites" is literal Populism, and results in situations like Matt's in which people end up voting for stuff whose consequences they don't understand because they've been manipulated, lied to, not given enough information or given contradictory "facts". The rule of the mob indeed.
I agree. Speaking as a Swede, my homeland used to drive on the left-hand side of the road, but seeing as all neighboring countries drove on the right-hand side, the government naturally wanted to change this to avoid unnecessary complications with people crossing the borders.

Unfortunately, most Swedes at the time didn't care for all the long term gains and only thought that having to spend a month re-adjusting their driving was too tiresome for them and therefor the proposition to switch the driving lost the popular vote. However, the government then decided to switch anyway, because there would me such massive complications later down the road otherwise, and it was switched against the people's vote in 1967. Source

And guess what? Today, no one regrets making the switch and if you ask any Swede they'll tell you switching was the right decision.

WHAM

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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #44 on: 04 Sep 2019, 11:30 »
It's weird to me for "populism" to be seen as a negative, when it literally means trying to appease as many people as possible. Which is kind of the point of democracy, isn't it?
Sure, the majority doesn't always make the smartest decisions, or the best decisions, but that's also part of being human. As stated, in a parliamentary democracy we elect an elite to govern, and accept whatever governance they produce under the laws and regulations in place. Only sometimes a decision is such that a more direct manner of decision making is required, and if a matter is suitably important I feel the best way to gauge what people think of a topic, and how they would decide within a democratic system, is to ask them directly. A vote or referendum.

It is easy to say "we don't want to ask the masses, we just want a chosen elite to make decisions" as long as that elite aligns with your worldviews. Will you say the same thing if that ever changes, I wonder? If you find yourself opposed to the views of the elite?

Considering past statements made by certain individuals, the eagerness and willingness to inflict violence and destruction on those some of you disagree with, I highly doubt it.
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Ali

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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #45 on: 04 Sep 2019, 11:34 »
You're making assumptions about what "certain people" think. The parties I've voted for have never won a majority in my lifetime. The UK's government has never shared my views, and I still think representative democracy is preferable, because this anti-elite populism is fascist bullshit.

(Incidentally, the reason "populism" is seen as negative, is because of the mass murders.)

(Also, the Lib Dems did (incompetently) make an effort to reform the UK's broken first-past-the-post system. What happened? It went to referendum, and we voted to keep things the way they are!)
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2019, 11:48 by Ali »

Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #46 on: 04 Sep 2019, 12:03 »
It is easy to say "we don't want to ask the masses, we just want a chosen elite to make decisions" as long as that elite aligns with your worldviews. Will you say the same thing if that ever changes, I wonder? If you find yourself opposed to the views of the elite?

This... happens literally constantly? It's called "elections" and sometimes the party that doesn't align with my worldviews... wins? And despite this, I'm still capable of believing that a parliamentary democracy is the best political system humans have come up with so far, even if it sometimes does not work like I personally would want it to?

Considering past statements made by certain individuals, the eagerness and willingness to inflict violence and destruction on those some of you disagree with, I highly doubt it.

Ah right, you're THAT guy. Gotcha. Bye.

Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #47 on: 04 Sep 2019, 12:28 »
Considering past statements made by certain individuals, the eagerness and willingness to inflict violence and destruction on those some of you disagree with, I highly doubt it.
I was talking about Nazis, not people I disagree with. Stop pretending otherwise. Why do you need to lie to make a point? Oh right, because you're entrenched in right-wing BS.
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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #48 on: 04 Sep 2019, 12:37 »

Please stay in topic, my virtual friends. We were talking about brexit effects, not make heat.  :-[

_

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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #49 on: 04 Sep 2019, 12:49 »
(Incidentally, the reason "populism" is seen as negative, is because of the mass murders.)

Ah, so that's why "communism" is also a bad word today, and people who walk around with hammer-and-sickle shirts and flags are called out and not elected into the British parliament to...
Wait. Corbyn did what now? And with who?

Oh. Oh dear.

(It's almost as if the UK never suffered Soviet oppression or something, and struggles to comprehend the wider European narrative.)

Please stay in topic, my virtual friends. We were talking about brexit effects, not make heat.  :-[

Aye, it's quite easy to veer off topic since the very nature of Brexit is so hotly debated.
As it stands, however, it seems unlikely that we'll ever get to see what Brexit looks like after all.

Ah right, you're THAT guy. Gotcha. Bye.

\o   Fare thee well!
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2019, 12:53 by WHAM »
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Ali

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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #50 on: 04 Sep 2019, 13:00 »
I'm not sure how we can talk about Brexit without addressing the resurgence of anti-intellectual, xenophobic, right-wing nationalism in Europe. On that subject:


Ah, so that's why "communism" is also a bad word today

For what it's worth, yes communist mass murders are exactly the reason I think the left should wholeheartedly reject the hammer and sickle, and the concept of single-party centrally-planned economies. I can't think what's led you to imagine that I think Jeremy Corbyn or communism are beyond criticism. Especially since I've been very critical of Brexit and the British far-left is rather keen on Brexit.

WHAM

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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #51 on: 04 Sep 2019, 13:13 »
I can't think what's led you to imagine that I think Jeremy Corbyn or communism are beyond criticism. Especially since I've been very critical of Brexit and the British far-left is rather keen on Brexit.

I never said anything about you or your opinions of Comrade Corbyn or the labour party. My comment on this topic, on the general level of acceptance toward far-left ideologies, was a generalization of how much more accepted such ideals seem to be in the UK compared to the more easterly parts of Europe. As much as I like your games, Ali, not everything I say is about you particularly.

Far-right, far-left, extremist anything is always bad news and should be condemned in all of its forms. I would certainly hope we can agree on this particular point at least, if not on many other topics.
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Ali

  • What will become of the baron?
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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #52 on: 04 Sep 2019, 13:43 »
I can't see, then, what relevance your comment about Corbyn has.

Unless you're presenting Europe's "far left" as a counterpoint to Europe's increasingly significant, racist, right-wing nationalists? This is wrong for two reasons. The Labour party, even under Corbyn's leadership, is a centre-left democratic socialist party with a moderate left-wing agenda. It's not an extremist party. More importantly, I exhort anyone considering WHAM's apparently reasonable opposition to both far-left and far-right extremism to read this very interesting article by David Katz: https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory/

It's very common to see right-wingers conflate Nazi and Soviet atrocities (which is ahistorical and stupid). But more alarming is those who seemingly weigh one atrocity against another. This is coming from Eastern Europe in particular, where lauded national heroes who defeated Soviets were sometimes also Nazi collaborators. And communist partisans were often Jewish, because they were fighting the Nazis.

The effect (perhaps the goal) of this argument, is not to draw attention to Soviet horrors - but to diminish the significance and uniqueness of the Nazi holocaust. To make excuses for Nazi collaborators and sympathisers.
« Last Edit: 04 Sep 2019, 15:36 by Ali »

Jack

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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #53 on: 04 Sep 2019, 21:01 »
What it is, is that people that prefer one form of government should have that form of government. The trouble starts when everyone is expected to fit into one system. You are all correct to be angry at being made to live with a form of government you don't agree with.

Of course some feel that everyone should be forced to live under their form of government, these are the trouble makers.

They do this often because their governments don't really work unless they can expand infinitely, or simply because they are afraid of everything.

Ali

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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #54 on: 04 Sep 2019, 21:49 »
That is gibberish.

Jack

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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #55 on: 04 Sep 2019, 22:05 »
Interesting.

Scavenger

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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #56 on: 04 Sep 2019, 22:21 »
No, really, it's gibberish.

People should be... living under the government they want? What, do we all seperate out into different nation states that have different government types? Apartheid for party lines? And people who want to change the current government for a country that isn't 100% unanimous are troublemakers?

It makes absolutely no sense.

Jack

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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #57 on: 04 Sep 2019, 22:43 »
And people who want to change the current government for a country that isn't 100% unanimous are troublemakers?

If I can employ the same exaggeration, would you prefer a single system that everyone is forced to live by?

I'm talking about populist voting for those that want it, indirect democracy for those that want that, etc. You don't have to agree with every decision but you could at least say that you agree with the way that it was reached, which is how societies are supposed to function.

Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #58 on: 04 Sep 2019, 22:45 »
Are we seriously having the same argument on why communism isn't equal to nazism again?
I already wrote a lengthy post on that just last week.

It's weird to me for "populism" to be seen as a negative, when it literally means trying to appease as many people as possible. Which is kind of the point of democracy, isn't it?
Sure, the majority doesn't always make the smartest decisions, or the best decisions, but that's also part of being human.
Once again I'll bring up an example from the history of my homeland. Axel von Fersen didn't wan't to be lynched, the big lynch mob wanted to lynch him (because they wrongly thought he'd killed a Danish prince),
and if they'd held a vote about it back in 1810 it'd be roughly 800 votes for and one against lynching Axel von Fersen. By that logic, was turning an innocent man into pulped meat* a justified and logical decision?

*Seriously, the Swedish word for minced meat still used to this day is pronounced exactly the same as Fersen's last name!

Ali

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Re: Hard Brexit: what consequences?
« Reply #59 on: 05 Sep 2019, 00:18 »
Are we seriously having the same argument on why communism isn't equal to nazism again?
I already wrote a lengthy post on that just last week.

Somehow we are! Because between them WHAM and Jack are determined to defend - not Nazism! never Nazism! No, they would never defend Nazism. But they will defend all the key characteristics of fascist regimes, separately and presumably as part of a series of innocent mistakes on their parts.

A reasonable conversation is impossible. You either try and fail to engage with Jack's moronic conspiracy theories, or you leave him to spout bigoted toss unchallenged.

WHAM will always be polite and courteous, and conversation with him always lead us to the same point: the Nazis did some bad things, but they also did good things. (To be clear, I'm not exaggerating. WHAM actually said that in this thread: https://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=44166.msg592683#msg592683)

Seriously, how can we have a welcoming community if this continues?
« Last Edit: 05 Sep 2019, 00:29 by Ali »