Author Topic: Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?  (Read 12257 times)

Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« on: 03 May 2003, 05:02 »
Alrighty, new rules:

*Music must be of some other origin than Western music (although I will accept folk music styles from Western culture)

*Instruments will be restricted to ethnic instruments with the exception of these orchestral instruments:
flute, oboe, violin (fiddle), harp, percussion
         -ask if you have any questions about this-

*Please try to stay away from jazz, blues, rock and the like

*This is not a rule, but extra points for modal music (if you don't know what this is, you can probably find an explanation online somewhere)

*File size is limited to about 1 megabyte

Have fun!  ;D
« Last Edit: 23 Jun 2003, 07:19 by Sluggo »

Pet Terry

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May 10th
« Reply #1 on: 03 May 2003, 17:25 »
Hmm, interesting rules. If I find some time I can try to make something :)
<SSH> heavy pettering
Screen 7

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May 10th
« Reply #2 on: 11 May 2003, 23:30 »
Hmmm, does anyone plan to enter? Did you decide not to because of the rules, or just didn't have the time? I'll change the rules is that's blocking people.

It did seem like this contest was kind of dying though

n3tgraph

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #3 on: 12 May 2003, 09:56 »
lack of time :)
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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #4 on: 14 May 2003, 21:40 »
Well, I guess I'll just wait until someone enters...

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #5 on: 24 May 2003, 23:23 »
Yeah, I like the rules, but I'm way too busy with stuff like writing music for other people's games, and whatever.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #6 on: 18 Jun 2003, 13:06 »
Interesting. I'm in. Would it count as modal even if it has the occasional derivation from the scale? Like dorian with a flat sixth thrown in somewhere?

n3tgraph

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #7 on: 18 Jun 2003, 14:13 »
LOL
look at the date
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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #8 on: 18 Jun 2003, 14:43 »
Indeed, I did. But I only spent about 10 seconds of my life writing the reply, so I couldn't think of a reason not to. In case the thread comes alive again.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #9 on: 18 Jun 2003, 21:18 »
Interesting. I'm in. Would it count as modal even if it has the occasional derivation from the scale? Like dorian with a flat sixth thrown in somewhere?

Well considering that flatting the sixth of a dorian scale gives you a descending melodic minor, obviously not :P

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #10 on: 19 Jun 2003, 10:22 »
Actually, consistently flattening the sixth in a dorian scale would result in an aolian scale (another mode). But, anyway, I was talking about a temporarily flattened sixth. Just one. A little one. :P

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #11 on: 19 Jun 2003, 15:38 »
Just play by ear, dickweeds.

;)

Adamski

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #12 on: 19 Jun 2003, 16:11 »
Hey man, I didn't spent the last four years learning music theory the hard way to play by ear :)

...

I wish I could remember it all... I have an exam on it tomorrow (DSCH, DSCH damnit!)


Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #13 on: 19 Jun 2003, 18:11 »
There's a good point somewhere between natural music and constructed music-- I find that the best music is carefully constructed but still based on what sounds good rather than numbers. And there's no equation for funk, baby!!

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #14 on: 19 Jun 2003, 18:46 »
Name one really successful composer who isn't the slightest bit educated in the art of composition. ;) And you do need some knowledge of music theory in order to play by ear too. (Not necessarily advenced formal training, but knowledge. Experience.)

I think music should be based on what sounds good but still staying within the limits of what's reasonable. And in order to sound really good you need some theory.

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #15 on: 19 Jun 2003, 19:06 »
Of course, but there's a point where you know TOO much music theory and can lose touch with the primal driving force of music. Knowing chords and general composition is obvious. Formal music theory tends to involve passing over your own instinct. Music has a random heart, and if there were ever a Greatest Song Ever I imagine it would break a lot of rules.

Fuzzpilz

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #16 on: 19 Jun 2003, 19:15 »
Music theory is a set of rules? Did I miss a memo?

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #17 on: 19 Jun 2003, 19:39 »
Since I've heard both EldKatt's and Trapezoid's music and they are both talented in their own rights, I'd be hard pressed to say that anyone "needs" theory or "needs" to do this or that or anything.  Each to his own, I say.  Something that works for one person may not work for another, but as long as the end result sounds good, does it really matter how it was made?

- Bryan

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #18 on: 19 Jun 2003, 20:02 »
Of course, but there's a point where you know TOO much music theory and can lose touch with the primal driving force of music. Knowing chords and general composition is obvious. Formal music theory tends to involve passing over your own instinct. Music has a random heart, and if there were ever a Greatest Song Ever I imagine it would break a lot of rules.

Only if you let it. Beethoven must have known all the music theory there is in the world, but that didn't stop him kickstarting the romantic period. Take a look at his 5th symphony (which is a pretty good candidate for Greatest Song Ever) and don't tell me he could have done that with just a rudimentory understanding of chords.
« Last Edit: 19 Jun 2003, 20:04 by Archangel »

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #19 on: 20 Jun 2003, 01:02 »
Classical music is a different field, and yes most great composers new a lot of musical theory, but it's the wrong place to look if you need something catchy and spontaneous.
Y'know, I'd go so far as to say that nobody need to study musical theory. The best thing is to listen to a lot of music and make a lot of music. I think that in music, experience > education. Of course, I'm still learning, but I don't like words like "dorian"... I'm sure I can use a dorian scale, but I don't see any need to know what it is if it would affect my musical judgement.

MillsJROSS

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #20 on: 20 Jun 2003, 05:17 »
Music theory gives someone tools in which they can draw their creativity. I'd agree that it isn't needed, but I think it can help a composer. It's like writing a book, it's good to know all the grammatical rules. Does this mean that a grammatically incorrect author can not have a succesful book? No, it just is a tool that helps structure thier work.

-MillsJROSS

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #21 on: 20 Jun 2003, 12:06 »
It's like writing a book, it's good to know all the grammatical rules. Does this mean that a grammatically incorrect author can not have a succesful book? No, it just is a tool that helps structure thier work.

Very good analogy. The claim that knowledge of music theory and composition hurts one's creativity is, I'd say, just a big myth. It wouldn't be too different to claim that an understanding of how to handle a brush and mix oil paints hurts the creativity of a painter.

Most of the people (ordinary people--not composers--but the kind of people who enjoy 'classical' music) to whom I've shown some of my favourites of Bach's fugues, particularly number 2 and 10 from The Well-Tempered Clavier I, think they're very beautiful, and even describe them as 'playful'. However, if one is to go by the claim that music theory hurts creativity, one would expect these two (2 and 10) to be anything but playful. If you analyze these fugues, and indeed any of Bach's fugues, you notice that the fugal technique used is very strict, even, some would say, mechanical. And, despite this, they manage to be colourful, vibrant and expressive. Coincidence?

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #22 on: 21 Jun 2003, 01:18 »
Grammatical skills don't have any effect on the creativity or the story structure of a novel.
I just think a lot of musical theory jargon is superfluous. I prefer to listen rather than study. I prefer to let my instinct play the biggest part of composing music. And most of all, I like to throw random things in. If it sounds good, I'll keep it in. Expirementing and composing by my own rules just feels so much more appealing than have a professor tell me how to do it. No, I'd rather go by the collective examples of all my favorite bands and whatever comes to my mind. But it's not like improvized or anything. I'll spend hours upon hours on one song. So by the end, there is a structure to the song, but as far as I know it didn't exist before I created the song.
By the way, the great composers didn't always follow musical theory-- they often created it.

Fuzzpilz

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #23 on: 21 Jun 2003, 11:31 »
Personally, I don't think the "grammatical rules" analogy works. Music theory isn't a Big Book Of Rules that says "YOU HAVE TO DO IT THIS WAY OR YOU WILL DIE!!1". It's just assigning names to the things people like Trapezoid prefer to learn by experience, which makes it easier to talk about them to others.

(Also: this discussion reminds me of the fact that wherever I go, many people seem to hate "artsy" music. Why is this? I really, really don't like using such a trite and arrogant phrase, but my impression is that they don't get it. Discuss. Or don't.)

(edit: to clarify, I don't mean inability to enjoy/appreciate it, I have no problems with that)
« Last Edit: 21 Jun 2003, 13:34 by Fuzzpilz »

Bob The Hun

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #24 on: 21 Jun 2003, 22:03 »
I have something that I could have entered, but it has a piano in it.
Blast! Foiled again!

MillsJROSS

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #25 on: 22 Jun 2003, 04:21 »
How isn't the "grammatical rules," a perfect analogy? All the grammtical rules represent are certain norms. A sentence isn't a sentence without a verb and noun. It's just a definition of what should be used. Just like musical conventions. Now just because you don't follow these set rules, doesn't mean your not making music. Just like if you wrote something that grammatically not supposed to be done, it's still literature. Then why should one learn these rules?

In literature we need to understand what we are reading, thus grammar is used. If a person writes without knowing anything about grammar means that whatever message they are trying to get across, might not be interpreted. Confusion will ensue. It's still literature, as we said, but it's message is obscured. It is only after one has learned this rules reasonable, can one break them so that the reader can still understand what is going on, even though it might be breaking several guidlines.

It's the same with music. There are certain norms one expects from music. Now if you just go into making music without knowing anything, you don't know what you'll get. It'll be unique, yes. And it'll still be music. But by knowing what is acceptable, one is then able to break into other areas, while still pleasing the audience.

Now pleasing the audience isn't everything, it's good to know what tools you can use to enhance your music abilities. It's not like it's a handicap.

However, I do agree that some of music theory is superfluos. This doesn't mean that all of it is.

Listening to music is a way to pick up on these guidlines. Just like by become an avid reader one picks up a stronger vocabulary, and a better sense of rules. So listening to music does teach the listener something, no matter what they think of music theory.

-MillsJROSS

Fuzzpilz

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #26 on: 22 Jun 2003, 10:18 »
On second thought, you're right. I was interpreting the analogy a little too tightly, I think.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #27 on: 23 Jun 2003, 07:18 »
Ok, sorry, I was away for a little bit. You guys can still enter if you want. There's no way this competition can advance if nobody enters.

And someone asked a question about adding a flat 6th or something: go ahead, it doesn't have to strictly conform to that guideline.

Ok, and now to go on to the discussion, might I bring up "The Rite of Spring" as an example (you know I really think I talk about this piece too much). Well, I wouldn't exactly say it "sounds good" much of the time, but that's not the point of music. I'm acutally surprised nobody has mentioned this, but music is expression. The Rite of Spring portrays what is intended brilliantly, but a lot of people don't like it because it doesn't "sound good". If you look at music that way it loses all meaning besides the superficial consonance that people like to hear. And that's all I have to say about that.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #28 on: 29 Jun 2003, 18:34 »
I was writing something in response to this little debatette, but MSIE crashed before I could post it. And I'm not going to write it again unless someone comes up with something new for me to comment on. ;) MillsJROSS' post summarizes what I was going to write. 'Nother reason not to write it.

Aaanyway, I'm in. The competition. Got a little peice to enter, too. A canon for three bagpipes (not Great Highlands--although that's completely possible--but rather some medieval model or, the type I play, Swedish) which I could try to record if someone's interested. If no one is, I won't. So... Are you?

MillsJROSS

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #29 on: 30 Jun 2003, 05:35 »
I'm interested in anything anyone has to make. Go for it, if not for us...it's always enjoyable doing it for yourself.

-MillsJROSS

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #30 on: 30 Jun 2003, 08:24 »
I can't believe this is still going on... It's almost July for crying out loud! Finish it up and start a new, interesting one!

Fuzzpilz

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #31 on: 30 Jun 2003, 16:53 »
This *is* interesting, but I'm no good at imitating real instruments, and I dislike General MIDI far too much to work with that.

SSH

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #32 on: 30 Jun 2003, 17:45 »
(Also: this discussion reminds me of the fact that wherever I go, many people seem to hate "artsy" music. Why is this? I really, really don't like using such a trite and arrogant phrase, but my impression is that they don't get it. Discuss. Or don't.)

Because it's rubbish? On ClassicFM TV that's recently appeared on our Sky Digital, they don't have many Classical pieces with videos, so every other video is Bond or Charlotte Church, but every now and then (too often!) they stick in one of Philip Glass's Metamorphasis 3 (or some number). I hate it! I hate Phillip Glass's music. It's terrible. How can anyone enjoy that rubbish? I notice that he made it a bit more accessible for that Russell Crowe movie he did the soundtrack for, but I think he also did The Cook, The Thief, His wife and her lover and that was awful too.

For those of you that haven't heard Philip Glass "music" imagine a single tone being played over again and again, changing pithcmaybe every 8 bars... dada dahhhhh da dadada dahhhh da....

AAARRRGGGGHHH!

Sorry for the rant, folks!  :-\

scotch

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #33 on: 30 Jun 2003, 18:28 »
Can't the tune contest just have a theme, or a setting, or a description of where it'd be used in a game like the other contests ._.

I don't think I've understood a single one of the tune contest rules, and yet I have understood every single one of the graphics contest rules since they don't go sticking in things like must use x shading technique with y perspective rule, which allows beginners to enter.. doesn't stop more experienced artists using those things if they want.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #34 on: 30 Jun 2003, 19:29 »
I agree completely, Scotch. I would never limit myself by saying 'I have to create this piece in the dorian mode'; instead I might say 'write something for a medieval scene. And I know I've just said exactly what you have but I agree that totally :P

Also gives a chance for poor souls like Trapezoid who think it's beneath them to learn theory :P:P

Fuzzpilz

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #35 on: 30 Jun 2003, 20:02 »
SSH, see, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I must admit that I'm unfamiliar with Phillip Glass's work, so I can't talk to you about him in particular, but the problem is that people seem unwilling or unable to accept the existence of ways of appreciating or enjoying a work of art (this applies to any medium, not only to music) that differ from their own.

c.leksutin

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #36 on: 30 Jun 2003, 21:14 »
can we finish this up before summer is over? this is a bit rediculus, everyone else got what? one? two weeks? tops...   we can DEBATE the merits of music theory in gen-gen guys.



C.

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #37 on: 30 Jun 2003, 21:26 »
Fuzzpilz, I don't think it's below me to learn musical theory, just to adhere to any. :) Which is basically what you said about the hypothetical medieval piece.
Technical limits are not good for the music competitions. I'd prefer if the rules were more along the lines of creativity. Something like the previous contest where we had to make a theme for a body part. Ok, so I won that one :) but the other entries were great and very creative.
There was another contest that involved composing a peice in modal dorian something or other-- I forget, but I didn't enter because of the rules. And all the entries were rather... forgettable...  :-\
So whoever chooses the next comp's rules, make 'em good!

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #38 on: 01 Jul 2003, 18:53 »
Next competition rules: (according to me)

You can compose any style of music, but are limited to these instruments:
1. Electric Bass
2. Bassoon
3. Banjo
4. Qu Di  (chinese flute)

Actully this would probably sound pretty nice.

BTW, what do you mean by modal? Technically all scales are modal.
« Last Edit: 01 Jul 2003, 18:56 by Geoffkhan »

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #39 on: 01 Jul 2003, 18:55 »
No it wouldn't, the bassoon and the bass would muddy each other up, and there wouldn't be any notes around the middle register :P

scotch

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #40 on: 01 Jul 2003, 19:01 »
Hmm limits again, as you might have noticed some people don't use traditional instruments in their compositions.. a theme would be better imo ._.

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #41 on: 01 Jul 2003, 19:12 »
Furthermore, some people (not me, but...) don't have MIDI sequencers and prefer to compose with an acoustic guitar or whatnot.
In my case, I have midi versions of those instruments, but they'll probably sound like crap.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #42 on: 01 Jul 2003, 21:22 »
It's a bunch of quotes and comments. Enjoy.
I can't believe this is still going on... It's almost July for crying out loud! Finish it up and start a new, interesting one!

Actually I really liked the rules of this one. Plus I already made something for it. :P

So whoever chooses the next comp's rules, make 'em good!

These were, in my opinion, good.

BTW, what do you mean by modal? Technically all scales are modal.

In this case at least, modal means using church modes. Play your piano with only the white keys and you've got all the church modes.

Furthermore, some people (not me, but...) don't have MIDI sequencers and prefer to compose with an acoustic guitar or whatnot.
In my case, I have midi versions of those instruments, but they'll probably sound like crap.

I compose using pencil and paper and Sibelius when I'm feeling lazy. And I don't care if midi sounds like crap because my music is made for performance... MIDI is just a system for hearing what you've done before you tell someone to play it. ;D

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #43 on: 01 Jul 2003, 21:56 »
Archangel: Yeah, that's probably true that the bassoon would muddy it up. Though, I once made a jazz song that used a bassoon (about an octave below mid C) as the lead.

How about these rules: Make a song in 7/8. Any style, and instruments.

It's a kind of interesting meter once you get into it, and it certainly is more regular than 4/4 (in my opinion) considering that most modes have 7 tones. That way you can play up and down a scale and by the time you end up at the root, you'll be on the first beat.

Another cool trick with 7/8 is to put the metronome on at about 100 bmp or so, and play through a couple bars. On the first measure the metronome will be on the downbeat, and on the second measure the metronome will be on the upbeat, and so forth. Pretty cool.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #44 on: 01 Jul 2003, 21:58 »
Yeah but again with the technical rules. It would be like having a bg blitz with the rule "you may only use the photoshop spraypaint tool". Why not just think of a scene or a character, and let people make their own interpretations?

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #45 on: 01 Jul 2003, 22:28 »
Personally, I don't think 7/8 time is much of a limit.

Creativity varies inversely with limitations.

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #46 on: 01 Jul 2003, 23:03 »
Nah... 7/8 music just sounds like you're missing a note. Try something else...

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #47 on: 01 Jul 2003, 23:04 »
Well I wouldn't go THAT far trap, but whatever :P

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #48 on: 01 Jul 2003, 23:42 »
Here's a little sample of a song I made called Straitjacket that's in 7/4. It's based on 12-bar blues chord progression, and sounds great live.

Dig the electric sitar!

http://www.freewebs.com/thefind/74meter.mp3

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #49 on: 02 Jul 2003, 00:05 »
I have composed in 7/4 before for part of a song... I guess I could think of something.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #50 on: 02 Jul 2003, 10:14 »
Yeah but again with the technical rules. It would be like having a bg blitz with the rule "you may only use the photoshop spraypaint tool". Why not just think of a scene or a character, and let people make their own interpretations?

You can't go that far in comparing composition to all other art forms. It just doesn't work. I have nothing against technical rules like this. Might just be because I actually understand them, though. ;)

Personally, I don't think 7/8 time is much of a limit.

Creativity varies inversely with limitations.

Damn right. That's said to be one of the reasons Schönberg developed twelve-tone technique... it causes you to create stuff you wouldn't even have thought about otherwise.

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #51 on: 02 Jul 2003, 20:40 »
All right then. Care to make a new thread?

scotch

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #52 on: 02 Jul 2003, 20:57 »
You can go that far in comparing, its almost exactly the same.. similar technical rules could be applied to the blitz, I might understand them but I'd still have a problem since it only allows a few people to enter ._. not everyone is an art geek here so we have fun competitions allowing people to practice and learn at whatever level they are at.  And technical rules make little sense in the case of an adventure game music forum.. as Archangel said you compose music for a certain goal most of the time, in this forum that would usually be in making music for a scene in an adventure game.

'You can compose any style of music, but are limited to these instruments:
1. Electric Bass
2. Bassoon
3. Banjo
4. Qu Di (chinese flute)' is dissimilar to any situation you'd find when making an adventure game unless those were the only instruments you had access to and you were making any random bit of music first and then the backgrounds and story etc.

Better rules IMO would be something like:  

This is a scene from a fantasy style adventure game starring a magic moose: make some music to go along with it as he walks through the forest. (You could suggest, but not require some music theory or instruments that might suit the scene).

or if you want to get away from adventure games then the 'Compose some music inspired by a body part' one was good ._.

Just my opinion anyway, I know nothing of music theory..

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #53 on: 02 Jul 2003, 21:03 »
The body part example was already done in a previous contest...

Edit: Oh. Well, you used it in the context of a suggestion.
« Last Edit: 02 Jul 2003, 21:07 by Trapezoid »

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #54 on: 02 Jul 2003, 21:04 »
I know, that's why I said ' the 'Compose some music inspired by a body part' one was good ._.' :)

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #55 on: 02 Jul 2003, 21:25 »
Hey, you guys had the chance to complain about the rules sometime in March, and nobody said anything. It's not my fault NOBODY has entered. It can't move on until someone enters.

But sereously, what's so hard about these rules? I mean make something that sounds ethnic, that was my goal. The technical stuff (which I thought was pretty limited), just supported it, and if you didn't understand it then making anything that sounded even slightly ethnic would probably adhere to the rules without you even knowing it.

And Trapezoid, I'm really sick of hearing all kinds of crap against theory and technical music stuff. What do you think music is, some unstructured blob of sound? I personally believe that you can't break the rules without mastering them first, so you can go ahead and try, but chances are it will be worthless garbage.

But I also believe you can go overboard with theory (which I don't consider this contest to do).

But now that I think about it, I'd say half the stuff doesn't even apply to whatever kind of rock/metal music you might write. I'm speaking from a classical standpoint (which I feel is one of the few significant kinds of music), so yeah, you can complain about technical stuff in music like rock etc. but for classical or folk or something, it's almost a necessity.

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #56 on: 02 Jul 2003, 21:32 »
Heh, I prefer Trap's music over most people's here..

it's not classical though so guess it isn't significant :|

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #57 on: 02 Jul 2003, 21:39 »
Right then... Does a Japanese synthesizer count as ethnic...?

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #58 on: 02 Jul 2003, 21:42 »
Lol ok slug, I think you should listen to trap's music, and then take back your horribly snobbish statements. I may not agree totally with some of what trap says, but he IS a good composer. You instantly assume that he must be a heavy metal artist, because we all know that these damn kids don't put any effort into structuring their "songs".

Edit: listen to Across the Night or Emotion Sickness by Silverchair and tell me those songs don't have any classical value. Now I might love the technical achievement of playing, and even understanding, a piece of Bach or Mozart, but that doesn't stop me from realising that the intellectual side of music is only one part.
« Last Edit: 02 Jul 2003, 21:59 by Archangel »

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #59 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:19 »
Well, I didn't mean to say that music has to be significant. I like listening to fun music that doesn't particularly have much value, but if that was all music was, it would kind of suck.

Archangel quote: "You instantly assume that he must be a heavy metal artist,"
I didn't really assume that. I used the phrase rock/metal because I didn't know what kind of ultraspecific label Trapezoid liked to categorize his music as.
 And I have heard his music.
You seem to be the only one making assumptions.


Trapezoid: A synthesizer would be electronic, and not a native ethnic instrument (as in a traditional instrument). Plus synthesizers are used all over the world, so it doesn't even comply to the "ethnic" aspect.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #60 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:22 »
Quote
chances are it will be worthless garbage.

Quote
But now that I think about it, I'd say half the stuff doesn't even apply to whatever kind of rock/metal music you might write.

Note if you will the pronoun "you" :P

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #61 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:28 »
Maybe it's because I was talking to Trapezoid  :o

I fail to see the significance of your response.
« Last Edit: 02 Jul 2003, 22:30 by Sluggo »

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #62 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:31 »
Guys, this seems to be getting a little off topic.  Instead of y'all wasting time arguing (because this is starting to get a little out of hand) maybe someone could actually *gasp* submit something and get this bloody contest over with!

- Bryan

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #63 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:35 »
You insulted the work of somebody who I appreciate as a composer, so I responded. And because you have no suitable counter-arguments, you resort to saying that you weren't talking to me, DESPITE the fact that you posted on a public board, instead of PMing your comments to the person in question.

undergroundling: why? I'm having fun here  ;D

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #64 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:37 »
If we're gonna debate the merits of musical theory, that's fine, but it looks to me like Sluggo just turned this thing into a flame war.

The musical debate was fun though!  :P

I have to agree with Archangel though, it was a bit inappropriate to go off insulting Trapezoid's work, considering many people on this board, including myself, appreciate and have used his music in games and he is a fairly well respected member of the community.
« Last Edit: 02 Jul 2003, 22:38 by undergroundling »

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #65 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:39 »
Actually, I think the flame war is the fun part ^_^ we never get to have a good one around here, the mods lock the topic as soon as anything even resembles getting interesting :~(
« Last Edit: 02 Jul 2003, 22:40 by Archangel »

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #66 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:40 »
Bah, what do I care anyways :P

I guess I'll just sit back and watch the fireworks.

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #67 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:42 »
Mommy daddy stop fighting!!!

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #68 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:43 »
WHO's yo daddy? I'M yo daddy!!

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #69 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:43 »
Trapezoid: Your avatar scares me.  It looks like a cross between Bill Gates and Alfred E. Neuman.  I always wanted to tell you that.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #70 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:51 »
Woah, this whole thing has been completely misinterpreted. I never insulted Trapezoid's  music, and the only reason I said I was talking to Trapezoid was in response to the pronoun post. I meant the pronoun was referring to Trapezoid, so therefore I was talking to him. You can't just take everything out of context and use it against me.

What was interpreted as insulting Trapezoid's music was this part, right? :

"I personally believe that you can't break the rules without mastering them first, so you can go ahead and try, but chances are it will be worthless garbage."


I never said anything he wrote was garbage, just it MIGHT be if he did what I referenced to.

Is there anything else you misinterpreted that I need to explain?

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #71 on: 02 Jul 2003, 22:55 »
Well, if you go through your post and change all the 'you's for 'one', then it wouldn't be insulting. Saying "But now that I think about it, I'd say half the stuff doesn't even apply to whatever kind of rock/metal music one might write" can't be misinterpreted, whereas the way you put it makes it sound like you think Trapezoid makes heavy metal. Jeez, you're such a stickler for music you'd think you would be able to apply some rules of grammar...





;)
« Last Edit: 02 Jul 2003, 22:55 by Archangel »

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #72 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:01 »
Well, after the whole "you" comment and such, which was preceded by declaring that if Trap made music without theory, it would sound like garbage.  Then you said that you have heard Trap's music.  Considering Trap had already said he didn't over-theorize stuff, and you had heard his music, and you said lack of theory would produce garbage, you can logically extrapolate your conclusion that Trapezoid's music = no theory = garbage.

And as to your last comment, claiming that you weren't referring to Trap's music:

"I used the phrase rock/metal because I didn't know what kind of ultraspecific label Trapezoid liked to categorize his music as."

So it DID sound as if you were insulting his music.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.

- Bryan

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #73 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:02 »
Well, in that section of the post I WAS talking to Trapezoid and HIS music, and it still isn't insulting if you actually understand it.

Your big argument seems to be that I insulted him by calling his music heavy metal. I already explained the rock/metal phrase, and I don't have anything against people who write heavy metal, so what exactly ARE you talking about?

EDIT: This post is in response to Archangel's.
« Last Edit: 02 Jul 2003, 23:04 by Sluggo »

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #74 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:04 »
Sluggo: was that a response to me or archangel?

EDIT: Ah, ok, nevermind.
« Last Edit: 02 Jul 2003, 23:04 by undergroundling »

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #75 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:06 »
It's the way you seem to write off any kind of music that doesn't involve 36 layers of counterpoint and a symphonic orchestra. Trapeziod quite clearly doesn't write heavy metal music, and so your comments "whatever kind of rock/metal" and "ultraspecific label" are patronizing, demeaning, and insulting. I fail to see how you can't appreciate this.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #76 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:10 »
Undergroundling: I never said "no theory" = garbage. I said that breaking the rules before you master them = possible garbage. I think there's a big difference. Also, I think that Trapezoid's as well as most music I hear posted here contains theory in it. It's obviously not intentional, but composers who listen more than they read about music can do theoretical things aurally without knowing exactly what the techics of it are.

 :)

Archangel: It may seem like I'm patronizing, but I really don't know much in the way of popular or alternative music on the radio and such. But I used the term "ultraspecific label" because I think it is kind of rediculous to have so many subgenres and people getting really anal about which you choose to label things, as you have shown.
« Last Edit: 02 Jul 2003, 23:14 by Sluggo »

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #77 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:12 »
With a little more explanation, I see what your point it, but I do believe you could have made it a little more clear without coming across as being condescending about it.  I'm sure your intentions were good, so, no harm done.

Now everyone kiss...er...shake hands...and make up.

- Bryan

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #78 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:14 »
It's all well saying that now, but that's not how you came across in your original post. But hey, that's life, eh? I say we bring this thing to a close now. I'm sorry for possibly overreacting, and I'll accept your explanation as an apology.

*BIG GROUP HUG*

Now I've gotta get off to bed, it's way past my bedtime :)

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #79 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:15 »
yeah ok, I'm done ranting.

Now will someone PLEASE enter this contest?
« Last Edit: 02 Jul 2003, 23:17 by Sluggo »

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #80 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:19 »
Quote
composers who listen more than they read about music can do theoretical things aurally without knowing exactly what the techics of it are

Yep, that was my point. I prefer not to think about theory, because it's there anyway and at a natural level.

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #81 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:32 »
Trap, you're really restricting yourself as a musician by refusing to have anything to do with 'theory'.
And Sluggo, I urge you to expand your horizons. It confuzzles me how someone that is so passionate about music can shun everything that isn't 'classical'. There is so much out there that can touch your soul in many different ways. Experiment, borrow stuff from the Library, and most importantly listen to anything by Boards Of Canada.

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #82 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:35 »
What's the big deal with "Someone has to enter this contest"?

Why don't we just say something like:  "this month's contest is over, Archangel please start a new thread with the rules for next month".

Instead of sitting around bickering forever  :P

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #83 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:36 »
I don't restrict myself, I just prefer to learn through experience rather than research.

Anyway, here, I've entered.
http://www.eviltrailmix.com/japanese.mp3

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #84 on: 02 Jul 2003, 23:56 »
That's sort of like trying to learn Shaolin Kung Fu by watching Jackie Chan films.

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #85 on: 03 Jul 2003, 00:06 »
:( why are the musicians so serious ._.

At least in the art threads you don't have to worry if you only know how to use the line tool and lens flare, you can still have a bit of fun.  Might look ugly to some but it gives everyone a chance, and when pessi posts his awesome pics with perfect light and shadow and texture people can go wow.. the nice thing is it caters for everyone.

Probably why so many people find it so hard to get into music..

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #86 on: 03 Jul 2003, 00:07 »
More like learning Kung Fu by practicing Kung Fu and watching others do Kung Fu. A lot.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #87 on: 03 Jul 2003, 04:47 »
Okay, I'm in.

Here's the tune I wrote specially for this contest. Enjoy!

Hope it follows all the rules:

http://www.freewebs.com/thefind/chinese.mp3

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #88 on: 03 Jul 2003, 06:12 »
Geoffkhan, put http://invis.free.anonymizer.com/ in front of your urls, freewebs don't allow hotlinking (at least didn't for me) and that lest people get around it.

http://invis.free.anonymizer.com/http://www.freewebs.com/thefind/chinese.mp3
« Last Edit: 03 Jul 2003, 06:15 by scotch »

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #89 on: 03 Jul 2003, 15:09 »
Here's my tune:
http://biphome.spray.se/erik.igelstrom/bagpipecanon.mid

A canon in D dorian for three bagpipes. Plays first the whole theme in one voice, then again with an insertion in the second voice, and then again with all three voices. Yay. I've made no attempt to make the mid actually sound like real bagpipes (ie add ornamentation), but it gets the point through. :P

I could still try to record it with my own Swedish bagpipe (a lot more similar to 'medieval' bagpipe models than Great Highlands are) if anyone's interested.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #90 on: 03 Jul 2003, 15:18 »
This will be my last words in this debate, because I felt I just had to say them. :P No more debating for me thank you. Let's just all give eachother a couple of big hugs.
That's sort of like trying to learn Shaolin Kung Fu by watching Jackie Chan films.
More like learning Kung Fu by practicing Kung Fu and watching others do Kung Fu. A lot.

I rarely say that anyone is 'wrong', but you're both wrong. Very wrong. Music theory (by which I mean the technique of composition) can be learnt equally well by listening to, reading, and playing a lot of music as it can with formal eduction. (Although formal education is very faulty indeed if it doesn't involve observing.) You can learn everything by observing and practicing it. Formal education just offers the opportunity to learn the techniques without as much of the sometimes tedious observation.

I've been thinking about a way to correct you, and the fact that finally comes through to me is that you just can't compare it to Kung Fu. You can get good at composition without formal education. This is not true with Dark Stalkey's example. But formal education does fill an important purpose, unlike Trapezoid's example tells us.

Bottom line... To everyone who disagrees with Trapezoid: Remember that formal education isn't some form of ultimate truth or golden path.
And to... well, Trapezoid ;): Understand and remember that formal education is good for you. It improves your skill and it's nothing to be afraid of. It's good. But it's not the best and only thing in the world.

(EDIT: I just read his post (the kung fu one) again more carefully, and it turns out Trapezoid wasn't as wrong as I made it sound. He was actually half right. ;) Sorry.)
« Last Edit: 03 Jul 2003, 15:21 by EldKatt »

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #91 on: 03 Jul 2003, 20:01 »
Nice bagpipe song, EldKatt. You might want to play the song in through a keyboard instead of entering it note by note -- it would sound a like more less mechanical.

Maybe add one of those Celtic drums and a fiddle and turn it into one of those mixolodian jigs. :)

bspeers1---

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #92 on: 04 Jul 2003, 01:27 »
More like learning Kung Fu by practicing Kung Fu and watching others do Kung Fu. A lot.

People who do this look silly.

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #93 on: 04 Jul 2003, 02:23 »
But it's music, not Kung Fu. I don't have a list or anything, but I'm certain that many great musicians didn't have a formal musical education.
No artform requires you to major in anything. Art doesn't need to be tought like any other skill. It's a matter of creativity, prolificacy, and experience. If you don't understand the balance between calculation and soul, expected and unexpected, then your music becomes uninteresting. That's my musical theory, and I didn't read it in a book.

Besides, don't black belts often end up getting their asses whooped when they go up against uneducated brawlers?  ;)

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #94 on: 04 Jul 2003, 05:20 »
Discussion:
Dark Stalkey: I never said I only listen to classical; there's other stuff I like. But what I meant is that there isn't much music in general that has any significance, regardless of how "infectious" it is, and that a lot of classical music is included in that category. But I'd also wager to say that about half of all classical music composed actually has any significance.

Trapezoid Quote:"Besides, don't black belts often end up getting their asses whooped when they go up against uneducated brawlers?"

This kind of ties into something I said earlier about breaking the rules, that you shouldn't break them until you master them. The black belts have mastered the rules and the uneducated brawlers just break them. The brawlers beat the black belts because the latter is still following the rules, so in order for the black belt to defeat the brawler, he must intelligently break the rules also. OK, enough philosophy (if you could even call it that).

Competition:

I would like to thank all applicants and just say that it was difficult to choose because all three pieces were quite good.

And the winner is... EldKatt! for his lovely bagpipe rendition. Go ahead and start a new competition thread.

And so ends the two-month-old tune contest.  8)


EDIT: I just thought of something clever:

Kung Fu is to Jackie Chan as music is to N'sync   ;D
« Last Edit: 04 Jul 2003, 05:24 by Sluggo »

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #95 on: 04 Jul 2003, 05:44 »
Now you're getting personal.
Mr. Chan is the best.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #96 on: 04 Jul 2003, 06:37 »
Is this a music contest or a debate contest? :P

Hard to tell. ._. Chill, people.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #97 on: 04 Jul 2003, 10:53 »
(Well, I said I were not going to say anything more in this discussion thingie, plus I probably can't say anything I've already said.)



Aaanyway... Yay. *bows* Thanks. :P

Now let's start a new competition. ;D

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #98 on: 04 Jul 2003, 14:52 »
Right, glad that's all sorted out. :P Locky time. ._.