A discussion about RoN's future

[Trihan]

ProgZMax's idea is a good one, just before I read that post I was thinking of suggesting that perhaps some people with nothing better to do redo all the character bios and list all of the important events that have happened to each character in the games in which they've appeared, so that if someone wants to use character X in a RoN game all they have to do is read the bio to know if their idea will go against some previously-established canon.

[DeviantGent]

There's a point. The currently existing bios are woefully out of date, and are essentially one or two sentence summaries of what happened to them in the first twenty or so games.

Having said that, I'm all for restructing the bios completly into sections that reflect their prominence. Right now its been a case of all new characters have a thumbnail that's put onto the end of the current list. Something along the lines of catagories for protagonists, major secondary characters, minor secondary characters and 'on offs' would be a great help.

[OneDollar]

If the difference between the old and new versions is made obvious enough, couldn't the two coexist?

I think that the old version continuing is fundamentally incompatible with the idea of a reboot (and, mind you, I prefer the former).

I meant it more as a temporary thing than a permanently having two versions - there's no reason to just stop RoN, throw out all the information and tell anyone halfway through a game that they can't finish it unless they make it compatible with the new version. Work could be started on version 2 with anyone planning a new game strongly recommended to use it, while version 1 is allowed to stop on its own accord.

Instead of a long-winded wiki entry...

A great idea, and I agree that I'd be much more likely to download a game than browse through loads of wiki pages. Would it be kept up to date though? Would you have it developed by a small core team? If it did interest people in developing RoN again then it'd get out of date quite quickly.

I also don't think its a replacement for a good, detailed wiki. Suppose someone just wanted to check a fact or two about a character or location, or search for something specific. That'd be hard to find in a game. While it might be a good introduction you can't rely on it for more than just an overview of the RoN universe.

Maybe RoN's wiki needs building, along with some general formatting rules, then suggest that its game authors' responsibilities to update the relevant pages when they make a game?

[Stupot]

Someone said earlier that the option of separating a few of the lesser quality games had been considered, but that it would be disrespectful to the authors of those games.

So how about going in the other direction?  If say, 25-30 of the better quality games were set aside as canonical.  So that at the very least, newcomers would have to know a little bit about thse games, but not have to worry about the other ones, unless they chose otherwise... Perhaps these could be known as the RON Hall of Fame.  Then whenever a new game is made, it undergoes a rating process and only games that reach a certain standard will be added to the 'Hall of fame' and their storylines added to the official canon.

[Trihan]

I was playing around with a couple more ideas after I posted that, and I've come up with a few that would be cool (although whether they're feasible is another matter entirely)

I'm not sure how you'd do this or if it's even possible, but having some kind of interactive online "game builder" where you get a dropdown list of all of the characters in RoN to date and can add them to some kind of "castlist" which then pulls info on them all and lists major events that have happened to them. This is probably a stupid idea and you may feel free to lynch me for even suggesting it.

And ProgZ had a good point about the wiki. It'd be good if someone dedicated enough to RoN's future were to play through all the games and create a fully updated wiki (heck, I'd do it myself if nobody else was up to the challenge)

But I'm pretty new here, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. I just wanted to help keep alive what I've seen as a great stepping stone into the community

[Eggie]

Just had a thought, rather than push the AGS-RON connection why not spread the word to some of the other game creation communities?

A lot of other engines that in their infancy have promise but the respective communities can't really seem to get to grips with what they're doing; they need a reality-on-the-norm. And seeing as how the original RON needs games it may as well be OUR Reality-on-the-norm.

[DeviantGent]

I do think pimping out the best 25-30 games or so would be a very good idea. How about this:

Step 1 - Pick all the games that have a more or less coherant plot and defined place in the canon.

Step 2 - Catagorise those games as Season 1, mix them around so it ends on one of the more 'epic in scope' games. I'm thinking the final part of Dylan Downing's 'Tapestry' series, nothing says season finale like 'collapse of the fabric of the universe'.

Step 3 - Set all new games 2-3 years after the most recent game in the series (which was around 2003, so make that 2005).

Step 4 - Call those new games Season 2, or The New Adventures, or something. Set these ones apart by encouraging the most recent, polished and consistent backgrounds and character sprites, along with a general increase in polish to seperate from the first season.

Step 5 - ????

Step 6 - PROFIT.

[monkey0506]

In all honesty I think RON's future should be for me to hijack all the sprites for module demos and supply no credits. Heh.

*On an unrelated note, I should include credits in my demos...

[RickJ]

What are we trying to accomplish here?   If it is to increase the popularity of the RONiverse and encourage  the production of more RoN games then I think we should first be asking what's wrong with it as it now exists and then think about what changes are needed to right those wrongs.

Barrier to Entry
From the previous discussion it would seem that the main problem is that there is a substantial barrier to entry due to the requirement of adhering to cannon and a lack of documentation of what the cannon actually is.  The idea that one must play every game to know the cannon doesn't scale at all and has not been practical, I suspect, in a very long time.   

I think Stupot has a great idea and his example of the Simpson's is spot on.   The way to achieve this is to write detailed biographies of each character.  Such a biography would describe the character's personality, education,  major or life changing events that have happened to the character.  This doesn't need to include every single event that has ever happened in every single game.  Just like in the Simpsons you don't need to remember every single thing that Homer did in every single episode to know his personality or how he would react in this or that situation.   

If there was a wiki for this purpose then such biographies could develop over time via multiple contributors.  A sprite starting out as a minor character could evolve over time and eventually become a major character.  The only rule is that you would have to respect what has come before.   If the initial creator writes in the biography that the character served in the military then subsequent contributors are obligated to not change that history.   Contributors would also be obligated to use characters consistent with their biographies.  Homer Simpson doesn't behave in an un-Homerish manner unless there is a good explanation for it.  For example, we wouldn't expect Homer to do anything remotely  intelligent, but if he were possessed by Albert Einstein's ghost then we wouldn't be surprised if he were suddenly brilliant.

The same could be done for specific locations.   For example Scid's could also have the equivalent of a biography which would describe the kind of place it is, the kind of people who frequent the place,  and perhaps some of the more notable events in it's history. 

I think this is a much easier way to go than trying to keep track of a lengthy and ever growing cannon.  If there is a good cast of developed characters where people come to know and love them then it is much easier to write stories about them, IMHO.

Lack of Visibility
The other problem mentioned in this discussion is the lack of visibility on the AGS forums and website.  New folks are always asking about the availability of resources, especially character sprites,  so they are either not aware of RoN or are dissuaded from using it's resources.

Perhaps an introduction page as part of the AGS website that includes links to the resources, the RoN forum, and that states the terms of use for the resources in clear and concise language.  I'm think something like the creative-commons-attribution-non-comercial-share-alike would be in order.   

Quality of Graphics
From what I could gleam from the discussion to this point is that shiny new graphics may attract new developers to RoN but it may also discourage developers with lower artistic skills.   

Aren't the RoN resources are done in 8-bit color?  If so perhaps conversion to 16-bit color would provide an easy way of polishing the existing graphics and make them easier to work with (for some).

Also, for a long time now I have been thinking that the results of the effort expended in the "Competitions and Activities" forum are being wasted.   It seems to me that with the addition of a few simple rules the output produced by many of the activities there could be harnessed.  The following rules would be helpful for example:

1. All entries are published under above mentioned creative-commons license and permanently archived on-line (americangirlscouts.com and  archive.org.  come to mind). 

2. Character sprites drawn to a standard scale(s) and color depth(s).  Perhaps one standard for low res and another for high-res.

3. Backgrounds drawn to one of a number of standard styles, resolutions, etc. 

4. Other sprites drawn to one of a number of standard sizes so that they could be used for inventory items, objects/props such as chairs, tables, etc (in which case they would use above standard character scaling), or GUI buttons.

Well I think you get the idea.  Why not harness the effort already being expended to generate artistic resources that can be used by the community.  After all the programmers among us have created (and continue to create) a wealth of modules for everyone's benefit without complaint. 

====================

Assuming that a decision is made to do something  new with RoN then we come to the problem of how to combine the existing stuff with the new stuff.   I think DC has the right idea here but I think "season" is not quite the right terminology.  What if we did something like they do with the Star Trek series where they all have the same main title and a different sub-title for each series.  So we could have different sub-titles for different categories of games something like: 

- "RON: Reality on the Norm"  - Existing and future canonical games.  Games must adhere to cannon just like now. People can go on making games for this category.

- "RON: The New Reality" - Uses polished background graphics, character and location resources are used consistent with their descriptions or biographies, ala "The Simpsons".  Adherence to cannon is not required. 

- "RON: Under Shorts" - Same as "The New Reality" except very short game (i.e. playable in an hour or some such time frame).  Perhaps this would be the equivalent of a comic strip, an elaborate joke. or a making philosophical point.  This would provide an outlet for those spontaneous inspirations some of us  have and something useful to do for the rest of us.     Maybe this is a good way of getting people started with RON.

- "RON: Abnormal Circumstances" - ?

- "RON: In the Year 2525" - Same as "The New Reality" except set way in the future ...

- "RON: Unbound" -  Experimental games to include first trys,  prof of concept, and other experiments.  No rules with regard to story line etc.  Just allow use of resources to conduct experiments or just learn AGS.  For example, someone could make game to learn how to open a door with a key from inventory and then release it as a tutorial.

I think you get the idea.  The actual sub-titles would of course be determined by further discussion and consensus or some other means.  Each game would then be like an episode in one of the title-subtitle  categories.

[Huw Dawson]

Incorporate it with AGS more. This is the AGS hub. RON is AGS too, so why can't it have a more permanent home here?

- Huw

[Stupot]

Yeh, even a RON link, up there in between 'wiki' and 'logout' would surely draw more people in.

[DeviantGent]

RickJ speaks truth here. In particular, Unbound could be a good place to put things like the quizzes, DasTobias's more surreal entries, and all the ones that don't really belong/detract from the more contemporary feel of the other games.

[Stupot]

A bit like CSI.  Eash series being set in the same 'universe' but prety much being kept apart, bar the occasional controlled crossover.

[DeviantGent]

I've recently cross posted RickJ's suggestions over to the RON forum, and also posted suggestions on where the current games can go based on his catagories.

As you can see, it looks as though they'd be spread out quite nicely. Thoughts?

EDIT - From my post on the RON boards - I'm thinking that The New Reality may be implying that it's more of a reboot as opposed to new RON games that are more standalone in nature/not as dependant on the main series' running story. Maybe something like RON: A Day in the Life?

[DeviantGent]

Sorry for double posting, but we're getting ready to make some decisions based on the ideas we've had so far. So, if anyone wants to add any more input, now's the time.

[bspeers]

I am just watching from a distance, but personally, I've never cared about canon, which is why a huge number of characters "leave" in my game, and why the end leads toward the possibility of alternate Rons where pretty much anything could happen.

I kind of think that if you want a reboot, you may as well write a whole new scenario and new characters, boot it up, run until that idea runs out of steam and then reboot again.  No reason you can't create a whole new community project with new rules and new characters.

But whatever you do, it won't be the first time RON was retooled.  And there may well be no effect.   So do what you like.

One thing: rules?  Defining some games as quality enough and some as not?   These seem like fool's errands an highly subjective.  Personally the games I enjoyed most are the ones by Captain Mostly and others that didn't really fit to the overarching story and basically abused the RON characters as if they were a simple graphics pack.

However, graphical upgrades would always be great.

[Jared]

I think it comes down to two things:

Visibility - more people need to know about RoN

Accessibility - updated bios, searchable databases of characters and (especially) games. It was irritating that even when I knew what RoN game I was after I had to scroll through nine pages of games because I had no idea what the release number was. Okay, it accommodates playing them in order, but they should be sortable by name and rating at the very least.

I'm not sure anything can be done to 'improve the games' which seems to be the angle some people are looking at it from - they are what people make them, as simple as that. I think trying to change that would be against the spirit of RoN.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I don't think too many people are suggesting that old games are changed but that the graphic quality of newer games is improved by way of better sprites and backgrounds, which I agree with.  People are far more likely to play a game that looks polished than they are a game that looks cobbled together, which in all honesty is how most of the RoN games look to me.  The unfortunate thing is that if you can look past the graphics, as I have, there are some really good RoN games, but many people won't even download some of the games they way they look.  I think this is a good reason to update the templates to something better looking.

[Jared]

Sorry for the confusion, I'm all for the new graphics being brought into RoN - when the series started all AGS games looked like that, but the community has come a long way and it has a certain 'stuck in a time warp' look to it - I was referring to the suggested policies for somehow improving authorial quality of the new games across the board such as 'core team of writers' and 'reboot' etcetera. RoN is open submission, so what it is is what the community makes it, and I don't think that should really be changed given the fact that the charm of the series is essentially due to those simple facts.

[DeviantGent]

Right peoples, suggestions for recatagorising the game and character databases are ago-go, along with talks of promotion. Take a gander and feel free to chip in.