About graphics and artists

[Louigi Verona]

 I've noticed that one thing that makes a game look amateur are graphics. And not exactly their video output quality, but I mean the drawings themselves. I've downloaded many awarded games from this very site and it is very difficult to play them seriously when most of them have such amateur drawings. I do not wish to offend anyone, many games have great plots and stuff, but drawings are too simple.
I understand that finding a good artist is difficult. Even more difficult is to interest him with work, - drawing those scenes is a lot of labour. Guys at Revolution Software have spent 2 years on Broken Sword.
Anyway, what do you think?

ps: speaking of the above mentioned Broken Sword, I would like to add that a difficult GUI pushed me away from such great looking games like Apprentice and King's Quest. When you have to first look at the object, then try to pick it up, then try to use it, then try to walk to it - it is really too much guess work and it is boring. The Broken Sword system is simplier for the player, in my opinion.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I think you're confusing commercial projects and independent projects.  Some people find it very difficult to justify spending hours and hours on high-quality work for a freeware project.  You're also forgetting that most of these projects have 1-2 people doing all of the work.  Finally, some people make a conscious decision to present their game in a visual style, say like old EGA or AGI games and this does not make them look amateur except perhaps to someone who has never played and appreciated older games.

[buloght]

People are here to have fun, make games as a hobby. Not impress you. And I agree with progzmax. And broken sword does have a very easy-to-use gui, but so does a lot of ags games 

[BunnyMilk]

This is a pretty gay thing of you to say really. Perhaps some people (like me) just don't have that artistic talent. We're sorry that we are ameteur game makers and that there are very few of us putting the effort into trying to make the best game we can. We're sorry that for us it is only a hobby but seriously come on. I don't think you even know what you are talking about a LOT of AGS games have what I would call professional quality graphics. Maybe you are young and don't know what you're talking about comparing the likes of an AGS game to something like OBLIVION or OTHER REALLY GRAPHICALLY INTENSIVE GAME. But damn to me that's not what Adventure Gaming is about. I would be more than happy, I would be ecstatic if Lucasarts released another game with the same graphical style as Monkey Island 1 + 2 and FoA. And I have seen AGS games recreate this style which to me means that counts as pretty professional!

I talk to people on IRC who are amazing artists that can produce some of the most amazing pixel art I have ever seen (even better imo than a lot of old AGI and SCUMM games) and the fact that they can do that astounds me.

But back on track, I personally can't create graphics for shit but I really don't want to let that stop me making a game (it does but w/e.) A lot of people just fight through it and do the best they can and if you can't appreciate at least that then I feel pretty sorry for you.

[Radiant]

Anyway, what do you think?

I think that if you're looking for games with graphics impressive by contemporary standards, with a GUI even simpler than the one in King's Quest (which, come to think of it, is one of the simpler ones in adventure land) then you won't find much of your liking over at AGS. It's a matter of taste; some of us like 'retro' graphics even if they're 160x200 in 16-color.

[Dan_N]

Right, then.

I have a question to ask mr. Verona.

Do you by any chance play lots and lots of 3D Shooters?

If yes, then kindly download the AGS games database starting from short length games, then medium, then full length. Then the MAGS, and them DEMOs. Then play them ALL. Play them twice.

Alrighty then, take two of those, smack yourself three times in the morning and make a realisation that, hey! Maybe graphics don't make the entire game!

I have made my diagnosis.
(that's right it's been made by Dr. Dan)

Kudos!

[Ali]

I don't think your remarks were particularly 'gay' as bunnymilk suggests. I don't think we should be too critical to Louigi Verona even if his remarks may come across as offensive.

Louigi, You are right that a lot of good AGS games have graphics that are functional at best, and confusing at worst. The reason for this is many amateur developers do not have the option of hiring skilled artists full time.

If the plots of the best AGS games were rendered super-great graphically, I suspect they'd exceed the quality of many commercial adventures.

But I suspect you're in the minority with your dislike of the Apprentice interface. I can understand you like the efficiency of Broken Sword, but many gamers enjoy a more flexible process of interaction which allows the player to decide how to deal with objects/characters.

Give Apprentice I or II another go (They do use different interfaces). If you like cheeky humour and an immersive atmosphere you'll be glad you did.

[2ma2]

I do personally enjoy naïve art, especially in adventures. Larry Vales just wouldn't be the same with "good" art, and Ultimerr's humour got through more efficiently due to its graphics. Graphics does not need to put you off - look into it and see that it might enhance the gaming experience, being as it is.

[Louigi Verona]

Wow! So many replies.

No, guys, I did not mean to be offensive or whatever, I just asked you to discuss this with me, to share opinions and stuff. I am also am amateur game creator and I love old games and just having fun and I don't play much 3D shooters and I am not too young. (answered everything, I guess)

As for my complaining about graphics, it's more about myself. I am now planning a game and I myself want some nice graphics. I know I am an amateur, but I want my project to be really a pleasure to play.

Also, because I played Broken Sword, but never really played earlier games, my opinion may be helpful to everybody, since it is an opinion of a person who may decide to explore adventures and see if he likes that. Making a more understandable GUI is a lot!

However, I will give Apprentice another shot, of course! And I want to play the famous Space Quest as well.

Anyway, how do you guys go about drawing? I read the drawing tutorials here, of course, but anyway.

ps: oh, also that. Have you ever played that game from Alien Software - Koplio's Story? They were also amateur, but their games were so much fun!

[Mordalles]

well, can we ask you to do some awesome graphics for us. i'm sorry we are such a disappointment. maybe if you spent money on a game, you might get what you're looking for. people are here to have fun, and enjoy game making, not to spent years perfecting graphics so that you can stop complaining.

[ildu]

Come on dudes, don't be so hard on him. All he asked for is a discussion. And I do partly agree with him.

I don't really have a problem with bad graphics as long as the artist has done his very best to achieve it. And I think people should distinguish design from graphics. Many AGS games have very good design, but lack the correct technique to make them great graphically. So basically the design on someone's low-res EGA bg can easily be as good as any high-quality game's. For example, I consider the design in Lost Lagoon, Drugbust, etc. way ahead of the design in, say, F.E.A.R., but some people may argue that the graphics are better in F.E.A.R. (not me, though ). So, I don't really think there's a shortage here. Many people just lack the time and motivation and/or skill to pull it off to the perceived professional level.

Then again, there are games with quite cruddy graphics, and I generally avoid them for the simple reason that the graphics ruin the immersion. But I think that happens mostly when the developer's talents lie somewhere else, like coding, storytelling or just generally innovation. But design doesn't stop at art, it's as valid in any other development field. So when design is lacking, for example when you think something could've been done a lot better with very little effort and the developer just couldn't be arsed to do it, I put my foot down.

[LimpingFish]

Hey, he's just saying what some of us may already be thinking.

Frankly, I don't play a lot of AGS games. It's not about eye-candy, but rather an overall lack of competent design work. But I would never take it upon myself to name names. Anybody is entitled to make a game here, regardless, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

But I won't blindly defend games purely because they are free.

[Anarcho]

Some people are great artists.  Other people can write great music.  Other people tell great stories.  Other people can program like there's no tomorrow.  But rarely can you find one person with all these skills.  Like prog said, most AGS games are solo projects, so you have to keep that in mind.

And regarding your question of how do you go about drawing...well, find yourself a drawing program like photoshop or paint shop pro and practice.  Find some screenshots of a game you admire and figure out how to draw similar graphics.  Read tutorials.  Practice.

[Mordalles]

limpingfish, who here are blindly defending free games? if the guy wants games with awesome graphics, why waste his time on a freeware site when there are so many commercial games with the kind of graphics he is looking for. why complain over something that's free.
and secondly, i am really looking forward to your competently designed game. 

[zabnat]

I am a very demanding gamer. I generally have very little time to play any games so I usually only play the very best of them. I don't dare to buy a game before I try it, because I want to see if there is something wrong with it. Most important things for me are the gameplay, interface and eye-candy.

But the thing is a little different for AGS games and other amateur games. I have dreamed of making my own game ever since I played my first video game (SMB on nintendo). That dream has yet to become true with a finished product, but I have worked on some projects that never finished. Anyway the point is (at least for me) that you have fun making the game. Personally when I (hopefully soon) finish my first AGS game I don't actually care if nobody plays it. I made it and I had fun making it.

One good example is that I enjoy making music even though I'm quite tonedeaf and have no musical talent. My first pieces were horrible, but by studying other peoples songs (mods, midis etc) I have learned to make some music that can even be listened (by someone else than me that is). But lacking the talent I usually just make remixes. Btw. this is the way to go if you're not a natural graphics artist and want to learn.

So yes, I agree otherwise great game lacking good graphics can push the player (or potential one) away from it, but it's really all about the fun of making the game.

[Ghormak]

and secondly, i am really looking forward to your competently designed game.Ã, 

Mordalles, please stop with the "do better yourself! " thing, it's completely irrelevant how much talent a person does or doesn't have.

Nice post, LimpingFish, I agree completely.

[Mordalles]

sorry, ghormak.  i didn't realise i was doing it all the time.

limpingfish, i agree completely. 

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I think that the important thing everyone should do is to scale their expectations according to the game and the situations surrounding it.  I have played several commercial products with high expectations because I was paying for it only to be horribly disappointed, and I've played many freeware games with little to no expectations and found myself enjoying them because, despite their flaws, I have firsthand knowledge of the challenges working in a small to one-person team on a project that is created purely for fun.  This does not mean that you have to like every freeware game out there or give it un due credit; it just means that you need to try and be fair in your judgements based on the comparative and very real differences between a big budget commercial affair and a beer budget game made for the heck of it.

[ciborium]

Check Mordelles' sig! "Curse those low-res graphics!"

I actually have no problem with the low res graphics of the games.  I have a problem with games cluttering up my PC that appear that the developer put no effort into them!  Although not completed yet, Chicky's Herman Toothrot game has low-res graphics, only two colors, and little detail (the combo of the two.)  However, it appears to have a huge amount of effort being put into it.  I want to play it! SSH's PMX graphics are not exactly stellar, but they did not detract from the fun I had playing the game.  Carver Island 2, with its haphazard mix of ripped and ametureish artwork, still entertained me.

I don't expect commercial quality artwork in an ameture AGS game, but if my imaginary pet cat, with no opposeable thumb, can draw a better stick man in MarioPaint on an Apple IIe running OS2 warp...

[Louigi Verona]

Well, I think that the situation with graphics has two sides.

From one point of view, like many guys here said, what's important for the game creator is not really the result, but the fun of making the game. Many people know they don't have graphical talents and they are not making any problems of it.

On the other hand, if you have a nice game in mind, if you have a nice engine like AGS with which you can easily programm it, you think - if I don't find a good artist for my game, not many people will play it. Want it or not, but the visual part of the game plays a big role and if you and me can appreciate a game even though it is not professionally drawn and stuff, most people out there will not.


I personally agree with both points. It all comes down to how you position yourself and what you want.
But I can also tell you that I've seen examples of good amateur games, games that successfully appeal to a large audience. A good example, apart from the abovementioned Alien Software, is a game called Within A Deep Forest, which you can get here: http://withinadeepforest.ni2.se/
The reason I show you this game is this - a person who made it cared to create a team where everyone did what they could do best - graphics, music, puzzles.
So creating an amateur game and having good graphics in them is possible in question. (when I speak of graphics, I don't mean resolution, I mean the quality of drawings themselves)

As some replies were sort of offensive, I'd like to highlight that I'm not complaining. I just voiced my opinion and I did it politely. Don't be so touchy. And keep in mind that without raising delicate questions, things will never develop.