AGS Awards 2013 Ceremony discussion

[Kiira]

(Split from this thread. -Snarky)

Yes, it was a wonderful ceremony, but... there's something I feel I need to tell you.

You probably don't know me, I'm not a huge part of the community and I joined the forums only a couple of months ago. Well, the thing is, as a lesbian myself, I felt that yesterday's 'jokes' about lesbians were just... yeah, wrong. My friend AprilSkies told me it was all based on Eternally Us. I thought it over and, well, it still didn't make much sense to me.

Let me explain myself: would you ever consider making jokes about Jews just because "The Shivah" has been released? Did you make jokes about black people when The Journey Down was released? Would you keep saying things like "We want more Jews!", or "We want more ni**er!" during the ceremony? It was offensive because yesterday you didn't make jokes about all the other adventures released in, say, 2010. You just picked this one and kept hiding behind the excuse "Oh, we're just joking about Eternally Us, keep calm dude".

What's even worse, you put on screen images of stereotypical lesbians. Actually, they weren't even lesbians: they were just straight girls making out for the sake of male audience. Again, it's like you put on screen someone with a big fake nose who's supposed to be playing the Jew, or someone with his skin dyed black who's supposed to be playing some kind of Bwana.

It all made me very sad. We all know how the videogame world is still mostly made by men for men's sake. We all read of women developers being insulted on Steam just because of their gender. Yesterday I felt like there's still no place for women, let alone lesbians, in this narrow-minded world of yours.

This said, congrats to all the winners. 

[Gribbler]

As a person who screamed out in excitement each time I saw kissing lesbians on screen, I want to say I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I am very sorry. I got carried away.

[Kiira]

It's okay, I'm not here for making scenes. Just next time think twice before getting carried away, that's all

[abstauber]

I have to agree, the jokes weren't quite balanced. But the ceremony game wasn't community made, it was all done by two (or more?) guys and it guess it was quite a task to get that game running. We had one single lesbian(pretender) pic last year and it was hilarious - and as said, Duals got a bit carried away this year If there's a new ceremony game next year, somebody better google some abdomen (but it won't be me )
If someone's still demanding political correctness, just join via plain IRC

[kconan]

  Congrats to Lifetime Achievement Award Winner Ponch, and the other winners!  Really great entries overall, and The Art of Dying might just be my favorite AGS non-adventure game period.

  I don't see a lesbian kiss being on par with a minstrel show, but regardless I'm sorry to hear you felt uncomfortable Kiira.   Lots of dudes around here and we would do well not to, even for a second, turn it into some kind of Mad Men locker room.

[Scavenger]

Congratulations to all the winners! There were some really great games this year, and I'll be sure to play the ones I missed out on - they all looked fantastic. I was really impressed with the ceremony program this year, it was a marvel - and it had the capability for animation, as well.

Unfortunately, I've got to put in that I also felt alienated by the gratuitous 'lesbian peep show' too, though. Could we not include stuff like that next year?

[miguel]

I apologise for being rude to lesbians last night, I also extend my apologies to men with small testicles who I constantly remind them of it, also to the announcers who I constantly interrupted, to Jim who made a great ceremony game and I crashed it clapping madly, to Icey who I joked about even if he wasn't there. To my fellow winners who I did not support on their time of joy because I was plain jealous, to guys with small balls who, wait I already apologised for that! There was a sprite who had a huge rack and I made rude comments as well, so, I may as well apologise to its proprietary. I also want to apologise to my country who had such high expectations on me, being the only Portuguese using AGS and all.

In my defence all I can say is that I'm an idiot. And Ponch started it.

[AprilSkies]

So there were lesbians! It was not a joke!
(Sorry Kiira couldn't resist ... I'm an idiot too... Just lightening and defusing .. I know very well Kiira, I know she was not offended. I think she just wanted to point out one important thing for her).

And Miguel... did you have your testicles removed?

[cat]

Maybe next year we should include gay men making out? Will everyone feel comfortable with this?

[Problem]

Congratulations to all winners!

The thing with running jokes is that they are only funny for those who know about them. And I can understand completely that some people may be offended by jokes about minorities, no matter where these jokes originally come from.
Dualnames, you did a fantastic job, but reading your post, do you really think this is the right way to react to such mild criticism? Just saying.

[Myinah]

Kira thank you for speaking up. I felt very uncomfortable too with the gay for pay lesbians. As a female it gets very alienating when we are fetishized and sexualised needlessly. Dualnames, the lesbians joke is alienating to some degree and makes it feel like a boys club. Telling us to lighten up about it is not helpful. I didn't see anything in the show last night that would have made straight men feel uncomfortable.

We are telling you as members of the community, female members who are in the minority, that it made us feel uncomfortable. Other progressive members have acknowledged that and apologised because they clearly want it to be a welcoming place for female devs. Because you were not bothered does not really prove that there was nothing wrong with it. And because it's been a running joke in the past doesn't mean its okay either. I'm not saying the awards need to be high brow, but come on.

[miguel]

And Miguel... did you have your testicles removed?

AprilS, nope, I'm fine. I'm also going incognito for a few weeks, just in case...


C'mon girls, it was boys being boys! Please accept our apologizes, I'm sure it will be much smoother next year.
Dualnames is just clearing the point that the joke already existed and he explained it.

We need to cool down, please. There's nothing better than having women devs on the community, it brings the testosterone levels down and brings a bit of common sense around.

[Problem]

Dualnames is just clearing the point that the joke already existed and he explained it.

And he told people who feel offended to not attend the ceremony next time. 

[Snarky]

I wasn't too keen on the lesbian "joke" the first time around, and last night I think it crossed the line from a touch of off-color frat boy humor to totally inappropriate.

I'm saddened that gay and female AGSers are made to feel objectified and excluded in the community's biggest event and what's supposed to be a celebration of all that AGS is about, and frankly angry at Dualname's defiant attitude and insistence that this kind of thing is going to continue. (Also baffled: The first time around this issue was raised, he was apologetic and said he never wanted to "put anyone away" or discourage female AGSers. Now that women are coming forward saying they were hurt/offended/put off, where is that consideration?) As cool as the in-game awards ceremony is, making it a vehicle for expressing such disregard (even contempt) for the sensibilities of marginalized community members is, in my view, unacceptable.

Simply put, if Dualnames is not willing to change it for next year, he should not be allowed to program the official awards ceremony.

Edit: Apart from being objectifying and alienating to some community members, it was just... kinda tacky and out of place, you know? When you think of AGS, is "gratuitously sexualized" something that comes to mind? To me, it doesn't seem to represent what the community is about. Such a shame, when stuff like pixel Daft Punk really made it seem like a proper AGS party.

[Myinah]

Thank you Snarky. I second this and will be boycotting the ceremony next year unless things change. I am unwelcome on Dualnames terms.

Miguel, boys will be boys is basically trivialising our feelings. It's not a valid excuse. You dont need to tell us to calm down either. None of us are in a rage, we are all actually calmly telling you how we feel about last night. You guys are capable of critical thinking and not alienating forum members so please reflect on that.

[bicilotti]

I just sent a PM to Kiira, apologising for any ceremony tactlessness.

Simply put, if Dualnames is not willing to change it for next year, he should not be allowed to program the official awards ceremony.

There is no "official" awards ceremony program, Snarky. There is just a man who put in the hours to make something fun and novel and shared it with the community he is part of.
To everyone bashing the Greek: "one who makes no mistakes makes nothing”, or more appropriately "one who makes nothing, makes no mistakes".


(unrelated) One minor thing regarding the IRC logs of the ceremony: apparently I f***ed up with +M/-M at some time, so some audience lines (and maybe presenters' too) were lost (see: Lifetime Achievement award). Can someone who recorded the game ceremony please confirm this? I am willing to add them manually if needed.

Again, thanks everyone for participating/making games/clapping!

[CaptainD]

It would be nice if we could all agree that next year we will have an AGS Awards Ceremony that's just about the AGS Awards, and no-one feeling upset at the end of it.  It's about bringing the community together, not alienating anyone (though I'm sure that was not the actual intention, now that it has been brought into the open in a calm and respectful manner, a calm and respectful response is called for).  I'm sure with the characters we have on the forums that we will always have a laugh, but not at the expense of others.

[Peder 🚀]

Or if you don't want any surprises just attend the awards ceremonies the "official" way, via IRC in a text-only environment.

[CaptainD]

Or if you don't want any surprises just attend the awards ceremonies the "official" way, via IRC in a text-only environment.

That too!  Though the theatre environment etc was very cool.

[Calin Leafshade]

I've been annoyed at the appropriation of Eternally Us for stupid sophomoric shit from DN for a while. It's childish and the characters in EU were never intended as lesbians anyway. I mean it's literally a playground-level attempt at humour. ("Tee-hee, he said 'boobs'"). Get a grip, sir. You're like 25 years old.

[Adeel]

I apologise for being rude to lesbians last night, I also extend my apologies to men with small testicles who I constantly remind them of it, also to the announcers who I constantly interrupted, to Jim who made a great ceremony game and I crashed it clapping madly, to Icey who I joked about even if he wasn't there. To my fellow winners who I did not support on their time of joy because I was plain jealous, to guys with small balls who, wait I already apologised for that! There was a sprite who had a huge rack and I made rude comments as well, so, I may as well apologise to its proprietary. I also want to apologise to my country who had such high expectations on me, being the only Portuguese using AGS and all.

I'd like to apologize for the same too. I didn't make any joke regarding anyone's testicles (except miguel's ) though. And yeah, I truly understand what the ladies want to convey. And I agree that seeing two males making out with each other would have made me little uncomfortable and alienated too.

But I'll not deny: seeing ladies cheering up for those males would've looked somewhat nice for a change!

[Myinah]

So you think that being homophobic and sexist is cool and that us women who don't like it should go sit in the IRC where we cant see it, but know its going on? Just so you can look at kissing ladies, because "Tee hee hee they are gay! Isn't that funny and sexy and risque!"?

Yeah, that makes more sense that just taking out the lesbian stuff and letting the women enjoy the ceremony in game with everyone else. I loved the music last night, the set was awesome, there was a lot of fun stuff. That one thing was off putting though and I wouldnt want to sit in the IRC knowing I was there for that reason.

Thank you so much to all the guys stepping up and being true allies in this. I'm really glad so many of you heard us and get it. You are exactly the kind of devs I'm proud to be in a community with and makes me feel encouraged.

[Snarky]

There is no "official" awards ceremony program, Snarky. There is just a man who put in the hours to make something fun and novel and shared it with the community he is part of.
To everyone bashing the Greek: "one who makes no mistakes makes nothing”, or more appropriately "one who makes nothing, makes no mistakes".

Well, when it's hosted by the Awards organizer and announced on the awards thread as the primary way to attend the ceremony (and the way practically everyone DOES attend), I think it's splitting hairs to say that it's not technically official.

Edit: It's fair enough to say that the AGS Ceremony is put together by Dualnames (and Wyz, at least in the past... and Ali who created the background, etc.) on his own initiative and on his own time, and I think everyone appreciates and values what a gift it is to the community, and don't mind him embedding some of his personal interests/sense of humor in it. And in fact, the first time around, any criticism of the "AGS lesbians" was pretty gentle. But if we want the awards to be an event for the entire community, not every inspiration is appropriate, and this has gone beyond an innocent mistake.

If this was a regular AGS game, then "if you don't like it then just don't play it" would be a better argument.

[Calin Leafshade]

I dont think anyone was being homophobic here. The sexualisation of lesbians is crass and childish but it's not homophobic. Dualnames is not a bad person. Let's not demonise.

[Myinah]

The butt of the joke is that they are gay. That being gay is somehow funny or sexy? It's a completely male gaze thing. How is that not homophobic when the entire joke is that these women are gay and so "Tee hee hee its fun to look at them"?

I am not saying Dual names is a bad person at all. I'm not saying he's intentionally being homophobic or sexist, but I'm not going to skirt around the issue here.

[Problem]

I have a deep respect for all the work that went into this ceremony. It was very well done, technical problems aside, and great fun.
But saying that you should better attend in the IRC if you feel offended by sexist jokes is like having a separate room for women. That's not a solution, it's just absurd and goes completely against the idea of a community.

[Calin Leafshade]

Some people (male and female) find sexual interaction between two people of the opposite sex to be, as you put it, "sexy".
To say its a "male gaze" thing is absurd. It's an opposite sex thing which in this case happens to be lesbian. Many women find gay men arousing (check tumblr). You can't police that.

I'm not defending dualnames at all. As I said I found it childish and in bad taste.

[Adeel]

Or perhaps place a button to give everyone the power to censor images for themselves, be it for any reason such as: being offensive, kids-being-in-the-room, parents-being-in-the-room etc.

Also, I agree with Calin Leafshade that it's definitely not a 'male's gaze' thing. It's same for many females as well (even though this phenomenon is found more in males as compared to females).

[miguel]

Thank you Snarky. I second this and will be boycotting the ceremony next year unless things change. I am unwelcome on Dualnames terms.

Miguel, boys will be boys is basically trivialising our feelings. It's not a valid excuse. You dont need to tell us to calm down either. None of us are in a rage, we are all actually calmly telling you how we feel about last night. You guys are capable of critical thinking and not alienating forum members so please reflect on that.

Myinah, I clearly said "we need to calm down" counting everybody in.
I also said it was good that you expressed your opinion.
I'm old enough to have matured my feelings and considerations towards minorities. I just want for people to take it easy and stop labelling persons based on one party night.
There's no moral right to alienate women from anything really, lesbians or not, but there aren't any lesbian haters around here that I know of.
It's clear that it was a big case of childish lack of taste, nothing more.

[Myinah]

Who's sexuality am I policing? In the privacy of the bedroom, I have literally zero care what people enjoy. In a public forum that is not about sex, in a public awards show, I dont want to see pay for gay lesbians because it's in incredibly poor taste and is disrespectful to lesbians and women in general.

Calin, I literally don't understand how you think I am policing sexual preference. I can find gay men attractive and not spout that in public. I'm not going to hang a picture of two sexy guys making out on my pin board at work. It's inappropriate, even if I like it. And that is my issue here. It's not cool to publicly fetishize a sexuality in a place like AGS that is supposed to be neutral. This is not a lesbian porn appreciation forum, this is not a sex website. Its a game dev community and last night made men, straight women and lesbians feel uncomfortable.

As Kiira said in her first post, would we think it was cool if we had jews or black people as the butt of the joke thanks to the shivah or the journey down. I don't want to argue with you over this Calin, I just dont think it's ok to sexualise groups of people in certain contexts, such as last night.

Again, I dont want a censor button. Because its not a child/adult issue. It is inappropriate and alienating and I'll just not go at all if it has to stay.

Edited: To add the men felt uncomfortable also. I know some did.

[Calin Leafshade]

Sorry, I wasn't implying that you were attempting to censor. My choice of the word "police" was poor and ill-thought-out.

To clarify, I do think it was fully inappropriate and crass as I said. I thought that you were saying that it was homophobic to sexualise homosexual activities when one was not, themselves, homosexual.

I apologise deeply for the misunderstanding.

[Myinah]

Thank you. I'm sorry I didn't make my original post clearer too. I can understand why you would object to that, I would too! All just a misunderstanding. I am in agreement with you 100% regarding the crass nature of it all.

[Snarky]

We can quibble over the precise terms to characterize it (I personally wouldn't call it homophobic either, but think it falls pretty squarely under "male gaze"), but I think the key point is that making "sexy lesbians" such a big part of the ceremony sends a clear (though no doubt unintentional) signal that this is a show meant for straight guys, and that if you're not a heterosexual male, or you're not comfortable with this degree of sexualization, you do not belong and are not welcome. And that sucks!

[Problem]

So Dualnames, you are saying that some people here are not worthy enough to express their opinions. Fine, if that's your attitude. If "STFU" is all you have to say against well-meant criticism (just read Kiira's post once again), then so be it.

No let's just celebrate the award winners instead. 

[Monsieur OUXX]

I understand Myinah's points, and I fully agree with them, every aspect of them...

...BUT... Myinah, there's something you failed to see, and aparently also some people who seem to laugh at Dualname's joke without undertsanding it: Dualnames is actually mocking the people who use "lesbians" as an incentive.
That's what he wrote, and that's also how I understood it:  "It's a joke, that's intentionally childish".

Therefore, both Myinah and Duals are saying the same thing: Myinah, in a serious manner, and Dualnames, by using derision.

It's sad though that some people miss the point and write such things as "it's ok to mock lesbians, it's humour". Nope, as a community of heterosexual white male, it's not ok to mock or diminish lesbians. It's only ok to mock people who mock or diminish lesbians. That's what Dualnames did, and he's cool.

[Andail]

Jesus Christ. A few people ask you to relax a bit with the sexist jargon and now you're pulling this enormous Yahtzee?

You're all stressed and worked out by this ceremony, man. Take a few days off and cool down a bit.

[Myinah]

But where was it apparent that he was mocking people who will use lesbians as an incentive? It's not like he posted a stick figure drawing of two women next to each other. That would have been more obvious it was a joke. Like a sign that says "SEX! Now that I have your attention..." he could also have just not shown any pictures of lesbians and said "I just said that to get you here!" Instead he just used real, sexy images of women during the ceremony. If the joke ends up being the same thing as the sexism its mocking, the intention behind it doesn't make it any less sexist. Especially if the joke is so subtle that no one gets it and you have to explain it to us all. In fact if you have to explain it, it's probably not a very good joke.

[Snarky]

I refuse to apologize to anyone offended by the joke about the lesbians. It's a joke, that's intentionally childish, a nod to Arby And The Ch13f (a machinima series). I will not make attempts to comfort those who fail to see the nature of the joke. I am mostly offended by those judging my efforts when at the same time, they did nothing to contribute to this community, besides stirring up fights and pretending to be in charge. The AGS community was not supposed to be run by assholes. Me and Wyz, spent over two months working on this, I even coded an irc bot to handle the commands, even though it failed because the testing was not under the same conditions.

Where were when the test was going on, to tell me about your opinion?
Where were you when people were actually DOING stuff?
Where were you when something required you as an AGS member, and not an arrogant high-nosed person, hiding behind an avatar on a forum?

Some people get the idea that because they've made valuable contributions they should be above criticism, and get a free pass to do whatever they want. Sorry, doesn't work like that.

For everyone's information, I asked the few female people that were on the AGS Ceremony test how they found the lesbians this year, and they thought it was acceptable. So I went with it. Apologies for trusting those female members, so wrong of me. To those of you being white knights all of a sudden, this is 3-4 years since we first used lesbians, go check the log of previous years, theo says "PUT ME BETWEEN THE LESBIANS I WANT THIS TO BE GREAT", he must be a sexist pig. I wrote a speech about Ponch, a member of this community reeeiving lifetime achievement award, that has contributed in his own ways, and you find a lesbian gif, to be more important. We were over 50 yesterday, but you find a lesbian gif to be more important.
I'm sorry, but THIS is pathetic and sad.

It's not like this hasn't been raised before (more gently), so don't pretend this comes completely out of the blue. Not to mention that you took it to a new level this time around.

Yes, Ponch's greatness is certainly worth putting a spotlight on.... for example by giving him an the AGS Lifetime Achievement Award and all of us cheering for him.

Take of this post what you think. This is my last one in this forum, I hope that makes you happy. So long and thanks for all the fish.

Or you could just get over yourself. What was it you wrote just a few weeks back? "I was reminded that this is not my idea, I use a medium made by someone else to project a vision made by someone else. Namely, I use AGS and the Sockets plugin made by Chris Jones and Wyz to help create the result that is the AGS Live Ceremony."

[Monsieur OUXX]

But where was it apparent that he was mocking people who will use lesbians as an incentive? Especially if he actually did show sexual images of lesbians.

Well, (to me) it seems obvious: One cannot repeat 100 times "there will be lesbians! come!" (when it's obvious that there will be none -- even though this time he actually did show lesbians, to spice the eneverending running gag. That wasn't a very good idea, as it blurred the line), and be serious. But as you've seen it's not obvious for everyone.

Now, you have two choices :
- take my word for it. And you've explained your point at length, and some people understand and agree, while some don't, and are the most vocal, and you can't do anything for them.
- not believe me.  But you've explained your point at length, and some people understand and agree, while some don't, and are the most vocal, and you can't do anything for them.

I think it's the time to leave all that behind, since everyone's position is clear -- even if someone answers again something incredibly stupid and makes you want to answer them. We should stop on this topic.

[bicilotti]

So Dualnames, you are saying that some people here are not worthy enough to express their opinions. Fine, if that's your attitude. If "STFU" is all you have to say against well-meant criticism (just read Kiira's post once again), then so be it.

No let's just celebrate the award winners instead. 

Jesus Christ. A few people ask you to relax a bit with the sexist jargon and now you're pulling this enormous Yahtzee?

You're all stressed and worked out by this ceremony, man. Take a few days off and cool down a bit.

This attitude (insolent, if I may say so), just costed us the lone developer of the AGS Awards game (and previous MAGS organiser, blog writer, etc.). Can you say you two were more active in and for the community as he has been?
Does that mean he should be above criticism? Not at all, Sirs, not at all. But...  is really irony everything you got for him?

But where was it apparent that he was mocking people who will use lesbians as an incentive? It's not like he posted a stick figure drawing of two women next to each other. That would have been more obvious it was a joke. Like a sign that says "SEX! Now that I have your attention..." he could also have just not shown any pictures of lesbians and said "I just said that to get you here!" Instead he just used real, sexy images of women during the ceremony. If the joke ends up being the same thing as the sexism its mocking, the intention behind it doesn't make it any less sexist. Especially if the joke is so subtle that no one gets it and you have to explain it to us all. In fact if you have to explain it, it's probably not a very good joke.

You have been very vocal about this Myinah, I hope to see you in late autumn volunteering to develop the AGS Game Ceremony with the same enthusiasm you took in this thread.

Some people get the idea that because they've made valuable contributions they should be above criticism, and get a free pass to do whatever they want. Sorry, doesn't work like that.

Snarky, I respect your way of debating much, but can't you see this thread has become a gigantic For Brutus is an honourable man?
Was this public escalation really necessary?
I am not able to take part in the debate (apparently Soxbrooker's video is still loading), but I can't but feel this has quickly become from a (worthy) "let's make our community more inclusive" to a "let's smear this guy" (yes, smear).

[Andail]

This attitude (insolent, if I may say so), just costed us the lone developer of the AGS Awards game (and previous MAGS organiser, blog writer, etc.). Can you say you two were more active in and for the community as he has been?

I really hope that wasn't actually a reply to my post, Bicilotti, because it doesn't make sense in a number of ways.

[Myinah]

So I'm not allowed to vocalise an opinion without working on a new awards ceremony game? Wow. I didn't realise my freedom to speak was based on giving free labour to an awards ceremony I was willing to boycott if necessary. I never said anything about wanting a game made specially for the awards, Bicilotti, so how about no? How about I am allowed to speak and contribute regardless. Don't be so ridiculous. And why would I want to work with someone who seems to hold such disdain for my views?

I would be happy to attend an entirely IRC awards ceremony if no game was made. I never asked for anything other than the lesbians to not be included, so I'm not sure why you are calling me out for having an opinion like I'm demanding a new AGS Awards game be made.

Dualnames chose to devote time to a well made engine. Many aspects of last night were wonderful and he should be congratulated for his excellent work. However I'm not going to ignore the fact that Dualnames has decided that getting upset about the lesbian gif is pathetic because he himself had no qualms with it. I am guessing you feel the same way. That is fine, you run the awards your way if that's what you want to do and I wont attend. I'm making a reasonable request for change, not being nasty or getting personal. My refusal to be segregated to an IRC boils down to the fact that it doesnt actually fix the problem of the content. Just because I cant see the lesbians doesnt mean I dont know they are there. I have no issues with a solely IRC ceremony, but why should women be pushed out over such a stupid gif? A joke didnt work, big deal. You apologised so why not take it out and move on instead of telling the people who dont like it to gtfo, or throwing your toys out the pram and leaving AGS?

I will stand by my opinion, respectfully disagree with yours and continue to make games.

[abstauber]

Take of this post what you think. This is my last one in this forum, I hope that makes you happy. So long and thanks for all the fish.

If rage-quitting is your way to deal with criticism, so be it. But I hope that you'll cool down and learn to relax.

btw. somebody should split this topic. (Done! -Snarky)

[ddq]

The ceremony reflected incredibly poorly on AGS as a community. The people defending the offensive immaturity in this thread make it seem like an accurate reflection.

[Grundislav]

Honestly, I was also a little put off by the constant "your mom" jokes and general immaturity, so much that I stopped paying attention after about 20 minutes. I appreciate that a lot of work and time were put into making the awards happen, but this year seemed like the most unprofessional one of all.

[bicilotti]

The ceremony reflected incredibly poorly on AGS as a community. The people defending the offensive immaturity in this thread make it seem like an accurate reflection.

Guess who was making a joke on the criticised joke two years ago.

(again: I have participated via IRC only this and last years, so I can't judge. And whatever offends/alienates newcomer to our community, we must change. But this seems hypocrisy)

[ddq]

Yep, two years ago. That is a past me. In the last two years, I did what duals should have done: left AGS and grew up.

[Snarky]

Three years, actually...

[Problem]

This attitude (insolent, if I may say so), just costed us the lone developer of the AGS Awards game (and previous MAGS organiser, blog writer, etc.). Can you say you two were more active in and for the community as he has been?
Does that mean he should be above criticism? Not at all, Sirs, not at all. But...  is really irony everything you got for him?

Honestly, I don't care. I didn't say anything rude, instead I've expressed my appreciation for his work twice in this thread. Most of the criticism here was remarkably low-key, and everyone seemed to agree that Dualnames did some great work with this award game. So I don't really get why he acted so offended in the first place. It's his decision if he takes such harmless criticism personally and makes such a drama out of it.

[Yeppoh]

Well. To be fair. He has the right to be offended about the weight this thread has put on the lesbians issue as much as the ones who had the right to be offended about the jokes around said lesbians during the ceremony.

[selmiak]

But beautiful women are nice to look at. If there are 2 of them, even better. I don't understand how a lesbian doesn't like to look at beautiful women. And even worse, they were't even nude!
So what's the fuzz all about? It's fun as a joke here and there, but the whole thing was very present and overdone, but also I think it was ment as an appreciation to the lifetime achievement winner. But I'm sure Ponch didn't ask for that, so I don't want to drag him in here in any way, rather congratulate again, it was Duals way of showing his praise I think. There are thousand of other and probably better ways to do this, but the person pushing the buttons got carried away and maybe had too much of the gin, I don't know. I'm not offended by this in any way, but I notice it was overdone.

Maybe next year we should include gay men making out? Will everyone feel comfortable with this?

If then there can still be beautiful girls this seems like an interesting experiment, I'm quite interested in the reactions to this. Also in my reaction. And also no nipples please
One of the reactions will probably be: cat wanted this. If you can life with that, I'm all for controversial social experiments

[Myinah]

Selmiak, here is a suggestion for you. Open google, click images, type "beautiful lesbians" in the search bar. Now you dont need it in the AGS game because you can have them on your very own computer! A revelation, I know! Then everyone can enjoy the awards and you still get to look at pretty women without making people uncomfortable and the awards seem juvenile.

[Calin Leafshade]

Dualnames Meltdown #14

I know that I, for one, will be incredibly insulted that you removed some lesbian images from something. So insulted.

[Yeppoh]

I feel like an outcast. Why do always people hop in a trendy bandwagon without me? I want to be offended too!

Duals, put button up shirts in the next build for the next Awards! I don't care if I'm the only one. Those things are disgusting!

[Calypso]

Edit: Apart from being objectifying and alienating to some community members, it was just... kinda tacky and out of place, you know? When you think of AGS, is "gratuitously sexualized" something that comes to mind? To me, it doesn't seem to represent what the community is about. Such a shame, when stuff like pixel Daft Punk really made it seem like a proper AGS party.

Honestly, I was also a little put off by the constant "your mom" jokes and general immaturity, so much that I stopped paying attention after about 20 minutes. I appreciate that a lot of work and time were put into making the awards happen, but this year seemed like the most unprofessional one of all.

I have to agree with this. Please, let's not make all this seem like it's some kind of a "hardcore feminist" issue (e.g. pretend like only females have a problem with some of the content), when that's clearly not the case. A lot of male members expressed similar views in this thread. Also, even if there WERE just females voicing their opinions, it shouldn't be devalued or dismissed because of that (unfortunately, it happens pretty often around the internets).

I don't understand all the unnecessary rage. The OP was very polite and didn't dismiss the ceremony as a whole, just expressed her views regarding certain aspects of it. Personally, I'm new to the forums and didn't get the lesbian joke at all - I didn't know what it was even about. I read the explanation for the first time in this thread. Still - not very funny, if you ask me, and it seemed very out of place and random. I don't know how many other newcomers were present there and how they felt about this, but to me, it felt kind of segregating.

I have nothing against humor (and I personally love black humor); I even think that it definitely has a place in the AGS ceremony, that the ceremony should include joking around and shouldn't be entirely serious. But, unfortunately, some of the jokes reminded me of my grade school years and not in a good way. And some of the jokes I wasn't even able to get as I wasn't present during the previous ceremonies. It's not like animated gifs and photos of two girls making out are known memes (the animated gif of Orson Welles, on the other hand… I laughed about that one). In the end, all the pointless sexual content just ended up looking very… immature. And btw. I also thought about the fact that there might be some actual lesbians present and was wondering how they felt about this (and cringed). Glad I got my answer.

I also don't understand the hostility towards people that are just expressing their opinions towards certain aspects of the ceremony. Why so much anger? It would be great to be able to have a civilized discussion about this. Instead, this thread escalated quickly into people announcing that they're leaving. I'm sure everyone appreciates what Dualnames (and other contributors to the application) have done. It was lovely and I made screenshots just to show other people how sweet it was. I also enjoyed the music, which was a very nice addition. It was generally a great idea and I definitely appreciate it.

Edit: Added additional stuff to explain myself more in depth.

[Peder 🚀]

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[Mandle]

Or perhaps place a button to give everyone the power to censor images for themselves, be it for any reason such as: being offensive, kids-being-in-the-room, parents-being-in-the-room etc.

I was actually looking for such a button at the time so this is a great idea! I woke up at 5AM to attend the awards and it just so happened that my wife woke up just as the scene in question started to play on the screen. She didn't see the scene in question, but if she had she would have been sure to think I had been up all night watching porn. In this particular case this was simply not true!

We also have younger members in the community. I never saw a lower age limit (13+ etc) when you sign up for AGS so adult content should be pre-warned about at least.

So yeah, if controversial humor is to be included please give a way to self-censor it in the future.

[Ogon]

Kiira's seemed very appropriate and helpful, but I couldn't disagree more with just like every post made by Myinah except in parts for the first one (still over the top) Edit: actually, not even that one. That is all.

[BrutalSlakt]

(My comments are not strictly to the people I quote)

My friend AprilSkies told me it was all based on Eternally Us. I thought it over and, well, it still didn't make much sense to me. 

I don't always share Dualnames humour, but that does not mean I can decide what his jokes are about.
As Monsieur OUXX has already explained, the joke wasn't "tihi boobies" etc.
It's ok to not like the joke or not understand it etc, but deciding what his joke is about?
It's not really up to anyone else than Dualnames.
The joke originated with Eternally Us, and then people kept asking for lesbians.
He wanted to make the community members happy, just as you are asking of him now,
if it was wrong then, why should he do it now?
It was pointed out here in the thread that the audience cheering for lesbians wasn't appreciated also,
but this seems to have turned into some one way rage against Dualnames and that is just not fair at all.

What's even worse, you put on screen images of stereotypical lesbians.
Actually, they weren't even lesbians: they were just straight girls making out for the sake of male audience.

We surely have different views of what is a stereotypical lesbian, but does that really matter?
And why does it matter so much if they are not lesbians?

the gay for pay lesbians

Dualnames had women test the ceremony and say their opinions on the lesbian part (which they were ok with),
I also don't care about that part. So I'm quite uncomfortable that this thread is making it seem
like every woman in this community has a problem with it.
(though I guess not every woman since you only awknowledge two sexual orientations)

What I do have a problem with, especially when you are speaking up for women, is this negative attitude towards women that get paid to do sexual acts with other women regardless of their orientation.
Regular actors pretend to have other orientations all the time,
I don't mean that you should have a negative attitude towards them,
I'm just saying it's very hypocritical if you don't.
Maybe this is seen as off topic but since it seems to be a very important statement,
I feel it's ok for me to comment on this.

[Calypso]

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What did you hide there, Peder? It just shows an empty spoiler...

Also, it seems like Dualnames deleted all his posts. Again, I think this kind of reaction wasn't necessary. Nobody wanted to "start a drama" - there will always be people that have different views and opinions and if they voice them politely, that should be viewed as fine. Instead, it was viewed as a personal attack and something to get extremely upset about. As if anything positive that was said about the ceremony suddenly doesn't have any effect.

[Dualnames]

I think this is the best topic in existence, I removed my posts, cause they ruined it.

[Gurok]

Spoiler

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This.

And also, this is the train-wreckiest "I didn't get the joke" thread I've read in a while.

[Yeppoh]

This post is a parenthesis about jokes with a joke :

Werner Heisenberg, Kurt Gödel, and Noam Chomsky walk into a bar. Heisenberg turns to the other two and says, "Clearly this is a joke, but how can we figure it out if it's funny or not?" Gödel replies, "We can't know that because we're inside the joke." Chomsky says, "Of course it's funny. You're just telling it wrong."

[Myinah]

No problem with porn. No problem women doing what they want with their bodies. No problem with bisexual women. No problem with straight women who want to pretend to be gay for money. At no point has anyone said anything regarding an issue with sexual imagery outside of this specific context as far as I am aware.

I do not presume to speak for all the women of AGS, I speak only for myself. I would also never presume to tell someone what they can or cannot make jokes about. If people want to make jokes in poor taste they are free to do so, but they cant then be surprised to receive negative feedback and act like it's unfair. You can criticize my views as much as you like. I put them out there, so you are free to say what you like. It's not going to upset me to hear negative feedback.

In my opinion, some women being okay with female objectification being part of the ceremony still does not make it cool. I used to be one of those women who said I was "one of the guys" and a few years ago I would have been screaming "Boobies!" and thought the lesbian gif was so funny. To me it all stopped being funny when I realised how pervasive casual sexism in society is. So many women deal with it every day, sometimes we need spaces to be safe and neutral to feel welcome. Not because we are fragile victims, but because we are asking to be treated with respect. Do we really need to see this stuff every where we go? If the roles were reversed and men were feeling uncomfortable with gay men making out, would it be acceptable to continue? As a female dev I am aware I am in a minority and I hate rocking the boat. I don't like to upset people and I don't like people to think badly of me. I worry that they will say "Eugh, female devs whining again!"

When I voice my opinion I know plenty of people will roll their eyes and think "Pfffft, feminism." and switch off, but I say it anyway because I hope to affect a small change somewhere and so I deal with the fact that my opinion might not make me flavour of the month with some people. I know I probably seem like a confrontational person, but it's only because this issue is one that I care a great deal about. Not this specific issue of lesbians in an awards ceremony (the more i have to type it the more that string of words is losing all meaning) but sexism in general, especially within the gaming community.

I appreciate it didn't bother you, BrutalSlakt, but I dont think it is appropriate for a public ceremony. It made me and several others feel uncomfortable. As a new comer I didnt get it was a running gag and as I said before if no one gets that its a joke, its probably not a very good one. If a joke ends up looking the same as the sexism it mocks, how are we supposed to differentiate one from the other?

Many people have apologised for not realising it bothered some people, and others have come forward and said it bothered them, probably because this thread opened up and they finally could. If Kiira had not posted I would not have been brave enough to open this discussion even though it really bothered me at the time. It feels horrible to have an unpopular opinion and I would have been afraid of the potential backlash. I dont think anyone really attacked Dualnames until he was bluntly unapologetic and told the women who felt uncomfortable not to be part of the awards game.

What was funny once, does not always remain funny. Black face was once considered funny, some idiots still think it is funny, but we have progressed to the point where the majority find it offensive. Communities are always evolving and changing, and so the argument that in the past people were asking for lesbians is not that relevant. People are saying something different because there are new members and they don't want people to feel alienated. Dualnames is not solely responsible for the lesbians being in the game. No one said that. But he is the person who basically told the people who were uncomfortable to fuck off, whereas other people who were shouting boobies and asking for lesbians admitted it was a bit much and apologised for their part in it.

I think its sad that to ask to not have to see sexualised imagery of my gender in every god damn situation in life, makes me seem like a total killjoy. It's not generally a request men have to make and why I hope there will be some understanding. But there we go. My two cents. Misinterpret away!

[Ogon]

Well I think the original point wasn't to bring up objectified women, but an eternally us reference. Not denying how it must look like to others. So I can understand Duals explaining that background, even if it doesn't help the actual effect.

Also, you imply it was purely for female objectification. You're a bit quick to jump on sexism, racism, .. things.

(Disclaimer: I have seen the image in question but haven't witnessed the whole incident, so it is hard for me to argue here. But from what I've heard it did actually start out as an eternally us reference, NOT yay boobies.)

So yes what you say is kind of valid, but if you weren't so fast with accusing everyone of things and instead you just had pointed out that what started as a stupid joke referring to a game kind of derailed (which it obviously did I guess?), I think people would be more willing to listen to you. Also see original thread post for a sane (minus nigger) post as reference.

Edit: correcting eternally us name

[Calypso]

I listen to Myinah's opinions as much as I listen to anyone else's. It's kind of manipulative to say "people aren't listening to you", when in reality, you are speaking about yourself. Also, you admit you weren't there, so you don't know how the whole ceremony went - yet you accuse other people to quickly jump to conclusions. Hmmm.

[Ogon]

Hm right, about the people not listening: there was a bit of a backslash on IRC about that. Should probably have clarified.

[Yeppoh]

When I voice my opinion I know plenty of people will roll their eyes and think "Pfffft, feminism." and switch off,...

Or other plenty of people look at the rhetorical land mines, logical fallacies, oversimplifications, "all-put-in-the-same-bag" generalisations, out of context arguments that feel like picked from the Internet, all mixed with perfectly good points - not always relevant, but good nonetheless -  in one mass of text, that makes it difficult and time consuming to dissect down what's right from what's wrong and vice versa, and then nearly impossible to make a fairly understandable counter-argument that doesn't create further misunderstandings; prompting those same people to say to themselves with a desperate sigh, "Not gonna touch this one. Let's just agree with it and call it a day."

That isn't healthy dialogue, in my humble opinion.

[Baron]

Alright, I finally read through the whole drama.  Interesting.

I have to respect Kiira's (and Myinah's, and Calin's, and Snarky's, and Calypso's....) opinion here.  I felt the lesbians were beyond the pale as well, but then I was raised in a very puritanical socially sanitized North American country, so of course that's what I would think.

For a moment, though, I'd like to take Dualnames' side.  Not because he sometimes has a delicate ego and not just because I sincerely value all the effort he put into the ceremony (as well as other AGS-related endeavours).  I'm going to set aside the whole southern European cultural thing, where nudity and sex seem (to me anyway) to be more casually viewed, which may just account for why he didn't feel the need to apologize (i.e. the he-didn't-know-better argument).  No, I'm going to take Dualnames' side because the man is an artist.  I know he is an artist because he toils, perhaps in a garret, for hours and hours and weeks and weeks on a labour of love.  I know he is an artist because he reacts temperamentally on occasion to feedback (Sorry Duals, it's true).  But primarily I know that he is an artist because he pushes the envelope and tries new and exciting and risky things.  This makes him a genius.  When it works.  Which this time it didn't.  I think Bicci put it best, quoting someone else who I'm not going to bother going back to find out who, when he said "One who makes no mistakes, makes nothing."

So, in summary, Dualnames has definitely made a mistake.  This must be (and has been) politely pointed out to him.  His reaction, from what I can glean from quotes of his deleted posts, was unfortunate, and clearly he needs some time to mull it over.  But I don't consider him some sort of villain.  He's just a hard-working artistic guy who's 99.9% of the time a great and valued member of the community who accidentally stepped over the line.  I hope everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive him.

Also, the internet is a place where a grain of salt and a thick skin are handy inventory items... Just kiddin'

[Calypso]

Or other plenty of people look at the rhetorical land mines, logical fallacies, oversimplifications, "all-put-in-the-same-bag" generalisations, out of context arguments that feel like picked from the Internet, all mixed with perfectly good points - not always relevant, but good nonetheless -  in one mass of text, that makes it difficult and time consuming to dissect down what's right from what's wrong and vice versa, and then nearly impossible to make a fairly understandable counter-argument that doesn't create further misunderstandings; prompting those same people to say to themselves with a desperate sigh, "Not gonna touch this one. Let's just agree with it and call it a day."

That isn't healthy dialogue, in my humble opinion.

You know, sometimes I think that I would be nice if people just tried to listen to other people's feelings and attempted to understand them, just for a moment, instead of beating them with their own personal truths, dismissing their feelings as nonsense and telling them what they should be feeling instead (because an ideal person is someone like me, and all that - let's try not to think about others). But nah, the reality is what it is. And it gets us nowhere.

[bicilotti]

I think Bici put it best, quoting someone else who I'm not going to bother going back to find out who, when he said "One who makes no mistakes, makes nothing."

I *think* (but don't quote me on that) I lifted it from Story of my Life by Giacomo Casanova. We remember him mainly as a womanizer, but his life was much more (secret agent, convicted, imprisoned in the "piombi", escaped from them, became a broker in Paris, etc.); plus you get vivid description of what Venice was really in its heydays (and not the sad disneyland for art tourism it is today).
Highly recommended, material for an adventure game!

[Calypso]

So, in summary, Dualnames has definitely made a mistake.  This must be (and has been) politely pointed out to him.  His reaction, from what I can glean from quotes of his deleted posts, was unfortunate, and clearly he needs some time to mull it over.  But I don't consider him some sort of villain.  He's just a hard-working artistic guy who's 99.9% of the time a great and valued member of the community who accidentally stepped over the line.  I hope everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive him.

Also, the internet is a place where a grain of salt and a thick skin are handy inventory items... Just kiddin'

I don't think anyone claimed that he's a villain or wanted to portray him as such. Much positive stuff was said about what he has done for the community, not only in this thread (e.g. I prepared an optimistic post about the ceremony, so other indie developers who follow me on a social network and aren't familiar with the AGS scene would know about what's going on in this community, and I didn't let any personal feelings influence my post, because I think this event should be recognized in a positive light). Yes, now the discussion is more heated than it originally was (partly because of the deleted posts and what was in them). The situation is unfortunate - agreed, although again, I don't think it was necessary for it to get into this stage. I also understand your perspective on this. I got a little angered because I saw a tendency of quickly dismissing certain opinions and even emotions.

Yeah, you definitely need a tough skin on the internet. I know a lot about that.

[AprilSkies]

I want to say:
Kijra said what he felt.
Dualnames explained the origin of the joke (and even Monsieur OUXX explained it VERY well) and why he felt of not to apologize. Kijra said nothing. I don't know, but I think that it's ok for her.
The thread should have ended there.
I think that all was said after was something concerning don't know what... and I want to take Dualnames' side.
The majority of the community wants just play and make games... and losing Dualnames we'll have less HQ games (I mean less number of HQ games).

[Peder 🚀]

What did you hide there, Peder? It just shows an empty spoiler...

My post represents my thoughts about this community the last yearish or so...

[Calypso]

I want to say:
Kijra said what he felt.
Dualnames explained the origin of the joke (and even Monsieur OUXX explained it VERY well) and why he felt of not to apologize. Kijra said nothing. I don't know, but I think that it's ok for her.
The thread should have ended there.
I think that all was said after was something concerning don't know what... and I want to take Dualnames' side.
The majority of the community wants just play and make games... and losing Dualnames we'll have less HQ games (I mean less number of HQ games).

What about letting Kiira speak for herself? She's not a child - she's an adult human being. Let's wait if she wants to say something about the subject. Just because she said nothing at the time this was happening, you should't assume everything's perfect (and Dualnames' posts are now deleted, so it's pretty difficult to react to them and you shouldn't expect that would happen at all, to be honest). No one pushed Dualnames out of the community, it was pretty much his decision - not Kiira's, not ours and not anyone else's. So please stop putting the blame on anyone.

[Snarky]

I was going to say that having read Dualnames' last post, where he seemed to have calmed down a bit and acknowledged that maybe this in-joke has run its course, that seemed to put the matter to rest, and that maybe we could all just go ahead and put this whole thing behind us. I was going to say that I'm sure he's not a bad guy and that he meant no harm by all the lesbian pictures and gifs, and that it's understandable that he'd be upset about facing such criticism right after working his ass off to try to make the awards ceremony as much fun as possible. I was going to say that while I feel pretty strongly that this isn't something that should be repeated, saying he "shouldn't be allowed" to program the ceremony was needlessly confrontational, and I was going to apologize for helping escalate the controversy.

... But then he deleted all is his posts with some flip comment, so fuck it.

I want to say:
Kijra said what he felt.
Dualnames explained the origin of the joke (and even Monsieur OUXX explained it VERY well) and why he felt of not to apologize. Kijra said nothing. I don't know, but I think that it's ok for her.
The thread should have ended there.
I think that all was said after was something concerning don't know what... and I want to take Dualnames' side.
The majority of the community wants just play and make games... and losing Dualnames we'll have less HQ games (I mean less number of HQ games).

I'm sure Kiira can speak for herself if she has anything to say. Whether or not she wants to add to the discussion now, I'd like to thank her for raising the issue in the first place, since once it was brought up it turns out a pretty sizable segment of the community wasn't comfortable with it either. That's good to know, and personally it makes me feel a bit better about the AGS community.

[miguel]

Enough! Jeeeesus!
We are what we are as a community, guys. We can all work to make it a little bit better, step by step, but we can't change from night to day, just like that!
So, let's calm down, all of us.
I think that everybody has had time to realize what they wrote. So take a deep breath and let's move on.
Dualnames and Kiira aren't writing anything so we should just shut up. Let them solve their stuff.

[Problem]

Yeah, Miguel is absolutely right, let's just stop it now. We made the whole thing bigger than it was, and it ended in the most ridiculous way with Dualnames deleting his own posts out of spite. Make of it what you want, but this has nothing to do with the original topic any more.

[Calypso]

We made the whole thing bigger than it was, and it ended in the most ridiculous way with Dualnames deleting his own posts out of spite.

No, we didn't make it bigger than it was, and no, we are not accountable of Dualnames deleting his posts. My final sentence about this topic.

[Problem]

Sorry, maybe I did not express myself clearly. I do not make anyone "accountable" for that, quite the contrary.

[Wyz]

I'm not going to get involved in the whole discussion though I have read it. I just want to share a piece of advice, a philosophy I live by that has greatly improved the quality of my life (also being the subject of countless jokes).

"Do not feel offended by what people say, feel offended by what people mean."

I hope that has been of help, it has been to me at least.

[Tabata]

"Do not feel offended by what people say, feel offended by what people mean."

Bravo!

[Yeppoh]

"Do not feel offended by what people say, feel offended by what people mean."

Truth.

And if I might add something that also helped me :

"Don't look for meanings that never existed in the first place."

[NickyNyce]

As long as AGS and the community evolves to be better and better, mission accomplished. Some people voiced their opinions and that's great. That's what a community does. We move on from this and do what's best for the community and AGS. Enough of the, he said, she said stuff. The goal here is to keep evolving into what's best for the community.

DN defended his actions, there's nothing wrong with that. He and some others saw it as a joke and some didn't. So let us all move on already and give congrats to all the winners and participants. That's what we all should be talking about now.

[Monsieur OUXX]

Duals we love you, we do. Just don't make clumsy jokes about repeatedly-mocked minorities again.
Give us a hug.

[Andail]

I don't think it's particularly good form to erase all one's messages in a thread, at least if you don't make it clear that you retract whatever you argued for.

In the light of that, I can only assume that Dualnames has conceded that the sexist jargon and jokes need to be toned down in the future, or someone else will have to arrange and host the award ceremony.

Nobody - regardless of their commitment and devotion to the community - can be completely above criticism, not even CJ himself.

Too many members, both old and new, both male and female, have expressed their dislike for the jargon and imagery present in the ceremony this time for this issue to be dismissed or brushed aside without permitting a proper discussion about it.

Maybe we could finish this discussion here now, and if necessary discuss sexism and gender stereotypes in the general forum.