AGS Awards 2013 Ceremony discussion

[Dualnames]

I think this is the best topic in existence, I removed my posts, cause they ruined it.

[Gurok]

Spoiler

[close]

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This.

And also, this is the train-wreckiest "I didn't get the joke" thread I've read in a while.

[Yeppoh]

This post is a parenthesis about jokes with a joke :

Werner Heisenberg, Kurt Gödel, and Noam Chomsky walk into a bar. Heisenberg turns to the other two and says, "Clearly this is a joke, but how can we figure it out if it's funny or not?" Gödel replies, "We can't know that because we're inside the joke." Chomsky says, "Of course it's funny. You're just telling it wrong."

[Myinah]

No problem with porn. No problem women doing what they want with their bodies. No problem with bisexual women. No problem with straight women who want to pretend to be gay for money. At no point has anyone said anything regarding an issue with sexual imagery outside of this specific context as far as I am aware.

I do not presume to speak for all the women of AGS, I speak only for myself. I would also never presume to tell someone what they can or cannot make jokes about. If people want to make jokes in poor taste they are free to do so, but they cant then be surprised to receive negative feedback and act like it's unfair. You can criticize my views as much as you like. I put them out there, so you are free to say what you like. It's not going to upset me to hear negative feedback.

In my opinion, some women being okay with female objectification being part of the ceremony still does not make it cool. I used to be one of those women who said I was "one of the guys" and a few years ago I would have been screaming "Boobies!" and thought the lesbian gif was so funny. To me it all stopped being funny when I realised how pervasive casual sexism in society is. So many women deal with it every day, sometimes we need spaces to be safe and neutral to feel welcome. Not because we are fragile victims, but because we are asking to be treated with respect. Do we really need to see this stuff every where we go? If the roles were reversed and men were feeling uncomfortable with gay men making out, would it be acceptable to continue? As a female dev I am aware I am in a minority and I hate rocking the boat. I don't like to upset people and I don't like people to think badly of me. I worry that they will say "Eugh, female devs whining again!"

When I voice my opinion I know plenty of people will roll their eyes and think "Pfffft, feminism." and switch off, but I say it anyway because I hope to affect a small change somewhere and so I deal with the fact that my opinion might not make me flavour of the month with some people. I know I probably seem like a confrontational person, but it's only because this issue is one that I care a great deal about. Not this specific issue of lesbians in an awards ceremony (the more i have to type it the more that string of words is losing all meaning) but sexism in general, especially within the gaming community.

I appreciate it didn't bother you, BrutalSlakt, but I dont think it is appropriate for a public ceremony. It made me and several others feel uncomfortable. As a new comer I didnt get it was a running gag and as I said before if no one gets that its a joke, its probably not a very good one. If a joke ends up looking the same as the sexism it mocks, how are we supposed to differentiate one from the other?

Many people have apologised for not realising it bothered some people, and others have come forward and said it bothered them, probably because this thread opened up and they finally could. If Kiira had not posted I would not have been brave enough to open this discussion even though it really bothered me at the time. It feels horrible to have an unpopular opinion and I would have been afraid of the potential backlash. I dont think anyone really attacked Dualnames until he was bluntly unapologetic and told the women who felt uncomfortable not to be part of the awards game.

What was funny once, does not always remain funny. Black face was once considered funny, some idiots still think it is funny, but we have progressed to the point where the majority find it offensive. Communities are always evolving and changing, and so the argument that in the past people were asking for lesbians is not that relevant. People are saying something different because there are new members and they don't want people to feel alienated. Dualnames is not solely responsible for the lesbians being in the game. No one said that. But he is the person who basically told the people who were uncomfortable to fuck off, whereas other people who were shouting boobies and asking for lesbians admitted it was a bit much and apologised for their part in it.

I think its sad that to ask to not have to see sexualised imagery of my gender in every god damn situation in life, makes me seem like a total killjoy. It's not generally a request men have to make and why I hope there will be some understanding. But there we go. My two cents. Misinterpret away!

[Ogon]

Well I think the original point wasn't to bring up objectified women, but an eternally us reference. Not denying how it must look like to others. So I can understand Duals explaining that background, even if it doesn't help the actual effect.

Also, you imply it was purely for female objectification. You're a bit quick to jump on sexism, racism, .. things.

(Disclaimer: I have seen the image in question but haven't witnessed the whole incident, so it is hard for me to argue here. But from what I've heard it did actually start out as an eternally us reference, NOT yay boobies.)

So yes what you say is kind of valid, but if you weren't so fast with accusing everyone of things and instead you just had pointed out that what started as a stupid joke referring to a game kind of derailed (which it obviously did I guess?), I think people would be more willing to listen to you. Also see original thread post for a sane (minus nigger) post as reference.

Edit: correcting eternally us name

[Calypso]

I listen to Myinah's opinions as much as I listen to anyone else's. It's kind of manipulative to say "people aren't listening to you", when in reality, you are speaking about yourself. Also, you admit you weren't there, so you don't know how the whole ceremony went - yet you accuse other people to quickly jump to conclusions. Hmmm.

[Ogon]

Hm right, about the people not listening: there was a bit of a backslash on IRC about that. Should probably have clarified.

[Yeppoh]

When I voice my opinion I know plenty of people will roll their eyes and think "Pfffft, feminism." and switch off,...

Or other plenty of people look at the rhetorical land mines, logical fallacies, oversimplifications, "all-put-in-the-same-bag" generalisations, out of context arguments that feel like picked from the Internet, all mixed with perfectly good points - not always relevant, but good nonetheless -  in one mass of text, that makes it difficult and time consuming to dissect down what's right from what's wrong and vice versa, and then nearly impossible to make a fairly understandable counter-argument that doesn't create further misunderstandings; prompting those same people to say to themselves with a desperate sigh, "Not gonna touch this one. Let's just agree with it and call it a day."

That isn't healthy dialogue, in my humble opinion.

[Baron]

Alright, I finally read through the whole drama.  Interesting.

I have to respect Kiira's (and Myinah's, and Calin's, and Snarky's, and Calypso's....) opinion here.  I felt the lesbians were beyond the pale as well, but then I was raised in a very puritanical socially sanitized North American country, so of course that's what I would think.

For a moment, though, I'd like to take Dualnames' side.  Not because he sometimes has a delicate ego and not just because I sincerely value all the effort he put into the ceremony (as well as other AGS-related endeavours).  I'm going to set aside the whole southern European cultural thing, where nudity and sex seem (to me anyway) to be more casually viewed, which may just account for why he didn't feel the need to apologize (i.e. the he-didn't-know-better argument).  No, I'm going to take Dualnames' side because the man is an artist.  I know he is an artist because he toils, perhaps in a garret, for hours and hours and weeks and weeks on a labour of love.  I know he is an artist because he reacts temperamentally on occasion to feedback (Sorry Duals, it's true).  But primarily I know that he is an artist because he pushes the envelope and tries new and exciting and risky things.  This makes him a genius.  When it works.  Which this time it didn't.  I think Bicci put it best, quoting someone else who I'm not going to bother going back to find out who, when he said "One who makes no mistakes, makes nothing."

So, in summary, Dualnames has definitely made a mistake.  This must be (and has been) politely pointed out to him.  His reaction, from what I can glean from quotes of his deleted posts, was unfortunate, and clearly he needs some time to mull it over.  But I don't consider him some sort of villain.  He's just a hard-working artistic guy who's 99.9% of the time a great and valued member of the community who accidentally stepped over the line.  I hope everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive him.

Also, the internet is a place where a grain of salt and a thick skin are handy inventory items... Just kiddin'

[Calypso]

Or other plenty of people look at the rhetorical land mines, logical fallacies, oversimplifications, "all-put-in-the-same-bag" generalisations, out of context arguments that feel like picked from the Internet, all mixed with perfectly good points - not always relevant, but good nonetheless -  in one mass of text, that makes it difficult and time consuming to dissect down what's right from what's wrong and vice versa, and then nearly impossible to make a fairly understandable counter-argument that doesn't create further misunderstandings; prompting those same people to say to themselves with a desperate sigh, "Not gonna touch this one. Let's just agree with it and call it a day."

That isn't healthy dialogue, in my humble opinion.

You know, sometimes I think that I would be nice if people just tried to listen to other people's feelings and attempted to understand them, just for a moment, instead of beating them with their own personal truths, dismissing their feelings as nonsense and telling them what they should be feeling instead (because an ideal person is someone like me, and all that - let's try not to think about others). But nah, the reality is what it is. And it gets us nowhere.

[bicilotti]

I think Bici put it best, quoting someone else who I'm not going to bother going back to find out who, when he said "One who makes no mistakes, makes nothing."

I *think* (but don't quote me on that) I lifted it from Story of my Life by Giacomo Casanova. We remember him mainly as a womanizer, but his life was much more (secret agent, convicted, imprisoned in the "piombi", escaped from them, became a broker in Paris, etc.); plus you get vivid description of what Venice was really in its heydays (and not the sad disneyland for art tourism it is today).
Highly recommended, material for an adventure game!

[Calypso]

So, in summary, Dualnames has definitely made a mistake.  This must be (and has been) politely pointed out to him.  His reaction, from what I can glean from quotes of his deleted posts, was unfortunate, and clearly he needs some time to mull it over.  But I don't consider him some sort of villain.  He's just a hard-working artistic guy who's 99.9% of the time a great and valued member of the community who accidentally stepped over the line.  I hope everyone can find it in their hearts to forgive him.

Also, the internet is a place where a grain of salt and a thick skin are handy inventory items... Just kiddin'

I don't think anyone claimed that he's a villain or wanted to portray him as such. Much positive stuff was said about what he has done for the community, not only in this thread (e.g. I prepared an optimistic post about the ceremony, so other indie developers who follow me on a social network and aren't familiar with the AGS scene would know about what's going on in this community, and I didn't let any personal feelings influence my post, because I think this event should be recognized in a positive light). Yes, now the discussion is more heated than it originally was (partly because of the deleted posts and what was in them). The situation is unfortunate - agreed, although again, I don't think it was necessary for it to get into this stage. I also understand your perspective on this. I got a little angered because I saw a tendency of quickly dismissing certain opinions and even emotions.

Yeah, you definitely need a tough skin on the internet. I know a lot about that.

[AprilSkies]

I want to say:
Kijra said what he felt.
Dualnames explained the origin of the joke (and even Monsieur OUXX explained it VERY well) and why he felt of not to apologize. Kijra said nothing. I don't know, but I think that it's ok for her.
The thread should have ended there.
I think that all was said after was something concerning don't know what... and I want to take Dualnames' side.
The majority of the community wants just play and make games... and losing Dualnames we'll have less HQ games (I mean less number of HQ games).

[Peder 🚀]

What did you hide there, Peder? It just shows an empty spoiler...

My post represents my thoughts about this community the last yearish or so...

[Calypso]

I want to say:
Kijra said what he felt.
Dualnames explained the origin of the joke (and even Monsieur OUXX explained it VERY well) and why he felt of not to apologize. Kijra said nothing. I don't know, but I think that it's ok for her.
The thread should have ended there.
I think that all was said after was something concerning don't know what... and I want to take Dualnames' side.
The majority of the community wants just play and make games... and losing Dualnames we'll have less HQ games (I mean less number of HQ games).

What about letting Kiira speak for herself? She's not a child - she's an adult human being. Let's wait if she wants to say something about the subject. Just because she said nothing at the time this was happening, you should't assume everything's perfect (and Dualnames' posts are now deleted, so it's pretty difficult to react to them and you shouldn't expect that would happen at all, to be honest). No one pushed Dualnames out of the community, it was pretty much his decision - not Kiira's, not ours and not anyone else's. So please stop putting the blame on anyone.

[Snarky]

I was going to say that having read Dualnames' last post, where he seemed to have calmed down a bit and acknowledged that maybe this in-joke has run its course, that seemed to put the matter to rest, and that maybe we could all just go ahead and put this whole thing behind us. I was going to say that I'm sure he's not a bad guy and that he meant no harm by all the lesbian pictures and gifs, and that it's understandable that he'd be upset about facing such criticism right after working his ass off to try to make the awards ceremony as much fun as possible. I was going to say that while I feel pretty strongly that this isn't something that should be repeated, saying he "shouldn't be allowed" to program the ceremony was needlessly confrontational, and I was going to apologize for helping escalate the controversy.

... But then he deleted all is his posts with some flip comment, so fuck it.

I want to say:
Kijra said what he felt.
Dualnames explained the origin of the joke (and even Monsieur OUXX explained it VERY well) and why he felt of not to apologize. Kijra said nothing. I don't know, but I think that it's ok for her.
The thread should have ended there.
I think that all was said after was something concerning don't know what... and I want to take Dualnames' side.
The majority of the community wants just play and make games... and losing Dualnames we'll have less HQ games (I mean less number of HQ games).

I'm sure Kiira can speak for herself if she has anything to say. Whether or not she wants to add to the discussion now, I'd like to thank her for raising the issue in the first place, since once it was brought up it turns out a pretty sizable segment of the community wasn't comfortable with it either. That's good to know, and personally it makes me feel a bit better about the AGS community.

[miguel]

Enough! Jeeeesus!
We are what we are as a community, guys. We can all work to make it a little bit better, step by step, but we can't change from night to day, just like that!
So, let's calm down, all of us.
I think that everybody has had time to realize what they wrote. So take a deep breath and let's move on.
Dualnames and Kiira aren't writing anything so we should just shut up. Let them solve their stuff.

[Problem]

Yeah, Miguel is absolutely right, let's just stop it now. We made the whole thing bigger than it was, and it ended in the most ridiculous way with Dualnames deleting his own posts out of spite. Make of it what you want, but this has nothing to do with the original topic any more.

[Calypso]

We made the whole thing bigger than it was, and it ended in the most ridiculous way with Dualnames deleting his own posts out of spite.

No, we didn't make it bigger than it was, and no, we are not accountable of Dualnames deleting his posts. My final sentence about this topic.

[Problem]

Sorry, maybe I did not express myself clearly. I do not make anyone "accountable" for that, quite the contrary.