Some Adventure Game Research

Meowster · Sat 17/04/2004 05:07:52

Oh dear. I'm confused. I thought Zelda was an RPG.

My world, it has crumbled.

And you, Chris, you. I hate you. I mean, meeting Tim Schafer was one thing. I was happy for you. I was even happy for you when I found out you live in Berkeley, CA. I was slightly irked when I realized you were goodlooking on top of all of this. But now, E3. What is with that, Chris? What's with that? Don't you realize there are other people in the world? You have to share the goodness. You can't take it all. There are some people who are starving, and other people who are wearing braces, and some people who have never been to E3.

What? You seem surprised. Come on, let's be serious. You knew it was only a matter of time before my jealousy took over. Jealousy, like a dark, shadowy demon that lurks in the corners of my soul. And, like a demon, it will breath fire and possibly singe your eyelashes, before laying an egg of DOOMEDNESS under your skin, next to your heart, where it will itch and itch until it hatches into the little Grim Reaper of DEATHEDNESS, which will reap your soul while you still live. And do you know what it is to be a soulless being?

Why not just ask Bill Gates?

Oh, come on. Don't deny it. We should have all known it was too good to be true. You're the reason Microsoft dropped Psychonauts. What, you thought I didn't do extensive background checks on you? Yeah, I know all about your rich uncle that works in Microsoft. What was in it for you, Chris? Why did you do it? Why did you betray your old friends, and Tim Schafer? Was it the money, Chris? You betrayed us all for the money? Or was it the FAME, Chris?

Didn't think we'd figure that out, eh? San Francisco, the home of Double Fine, and Seattle, the Empire of Microsoft... Well if you replace some of the letters with other letters, and then take away a few letters and add some other letters, and then rearrange the words "San Francisco, Double Fine, Microsoft", guess what you get, Chris? Oh, that's right. You probably already know. Yes, it spells out "Chris Remo is a Microsoft Fanboy". Or something like that.

You think you're so great because you live in San Francisco and you met Tim Schafer. Well, I got news for you. I can live there, too. Just wait til I'm through with Uni. Versity. Because when I am, it's a one way ticket to San Fran, baby, yeah. Well, that, and some paperwork and a work contract whereby I become pretty much a slave within America until I earn my green card... but then I'll be free, yes, free... to vote Liberal Democrats! And also to find a better job. Perhaps not Double Fine, but other places are good too.

What, you probably go to UC Burkeley and all, right? God, I hate you. Well, I bet Trinity is just as good as UCB. Probably. Maybe. Okay, and if it's not, who cares? I mean, it's the, the, quality of the teachers that matters, not the resources. And okay, so the next ten years of my life are going to be spent in education and work contracts to stay in america--

We should probably just get married or something. Can you get me free pens at E3?

remixor · Sat 17/04/2004 05:54:02

Quote from: Ami on Sat 17/04/2004 05:07:52
Oh dear. I'm confused. I thought Zelda was an RPG.

No

QuoteMy world, it has crumbled.

And you, Chris, you. I hate you. I mean, meeting Tim Schafer was one thing. I was happy for you. I was even happy for you when I found out you live in Berkeley, CA. I was slightly irked when I realized you were goodlooking on top of all of this. But now, E3. What is with that, Chris? What's with that? Don't you realize there are other people in the world? You have to share the goodness. You can't take it all. There are some people who are starving, and other people who are wearing braces, and some people who have never been to E3.

What? You seem surprised. Come on, let's be serious. You knew it was only a matter of time before my jealousy took over. Jealousy, like a dark, shadowy demon that lurks in the corners of my soul. And, like a demon, it will breath fire and possibly singe your eyelashes, before laying an egg of DOOMEDNESS under your skin, next to your heart, where it will itch and itch until it hatches into the little Grim Reaper of DEATHEDNESS, which will reap your soul while you still live. And do you know what it is to be a soulless being?

Why not just ask Bill Gates?

Oh, come on. Don't deny it. We should have all known it was too good to be true. You're the reason Microsoft dropped Psychonauts. What, you thought I didn't do extensive background checks on you? Yeah, I know all about your rich uncle that works in Microsoft. What was in it for you, Chris? Why did you do it? Why did you betray your old friends, and Tim Schafer? Was it the money, Chris? You betrayed us all for the money? Or was it the FAME, Chris?

Didn't think we'd figure that out, eh? San Francisco, the home of Double Fine, and Seattle, the Empire of Microsoft... Well if you replace some of the letters with other letters, and then take away a few letters and add some other letters, and then rearrange the words "San Francisco, Double Fine, Microsoft", guess what you get, Chris? Oh, that's right. You probably already know. Yes, it spells out "Chris Remo is a Microsoft Fanboy". Or something like that.

You think you're so great because you live in San Francisco and you met Tim Schafer. Well, I got news for you. I can live there, too. Just wait til I'm through with Uni. Versity. Because when I am, it's a one way ticket to San Fran, baby, yeah. Well, that, and some paperwork and a work contract whereby I become pretty much a slave within America until I earn my green card... but then I'll be free, yes, free... to vote Liberal Democrats! And also to find a better job. Perhaps not Double Fine, but other places are good too.

What, you probably go to UC Burkeley and all, right? God, I hate you. Well, I bet Trinity is just as good as UCB. Probably. Maybe. Okay, and if it's not, who cares? I mean, it's the, the, quality of the teachers that matters, not the resources. And okay, so the next ten years of my life are going to be spent in education and work contracts to stay in america--

We should probably just get married or something. Can you get me free pens at E3?

Sounds like you've got a plan

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Sat 17/04/2004 08:03:04

Another Question -

I think none of those games are adventures. While a few DO share some things with adventures (eg, the inventory system) they don't FEEL like adventures. In my previous post I'd mentioned that an adventure was beyond the execution, it was the concept - that may have been not very explanatory, but this is what I meant. Having an inventory, or a dialog system, or whatever, does not make a game an adventure. Similarly, having action scenes does NOT make the game a non-adventure (Broken Sword 3). I repeat, none of the previous games are adventures (as far as I'm concerned), not becuase of some mathematical formula that adventures must obey, but because they simply AREN'T. And you feel that. You really do.

MrColossal · Sat 17/04/2004 08:28:38

that's all very personal to you, but i definetly feel that there is at least a few things one could make a list of for what an adventure game is, FEELING that something is an adventure game is kinda silly when I could tell you that I feel that Tetris is an adventure game and you know full well that it isn't.

I felt that Yoshi's Island was an adventure game when people will tell me it's a side scrolling platformer, so there I agree. But I also have reasons for it being an adventure game, not just feelings.

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Sat 17/04/2004 08:38:29

Colossal Caves originally defined the genre as "a game where you assume the role of a character in another 'world', in order to fulfill a certain task(s)", whether they be save the world, your father, treasure, or whatever. Since then, the genre has been expoanded is soooo many ways, and so many OTHER games have adopted a similar attitude, that it's really hard to come up with a true definition. If pressed, I would say an adventure has a story which unfolds as you play it - but isn't that true of most games nowadays? I'd say it needs an inventory - but Loom is an adventure. I'd say it needs dialogue - but Myst is an adventure. I'd say it needs TONS of inventory items - but Syberia is an adventure. I'd say it shouldn't have action scenes, lest it fall into Action/Adventure, a hybrid I detest - but Broken Sword 3 pulled it through admirably. I'd say you need the ability to save your game in progress, as THAT is also true of most games nowadays. I'd say it all resides in the way you interact with the environment, but where does that lead us, since Gabriel Knight allows yoiu to interact with it in nearly endless ways whilst the Dark Eye provides very limited interaction, not being any less of an adventure?

I can only trust my gut feelings on this. If ever there was a genre hard to define, that genre is Adventure, because it's so vast it's spread istelf into a number of other genres. You can find it in action games, RPGs, even FPS. So I trust my gut feeling.

MrColossal · Sat 17/04/2004 08:56:12

all genre defining words now-a-days are too vague. What's an RPG? We could go back and forth with tons of games and never agree... What's an adventure games? Same thing.

I like saying adventuring is exploring a world and interacting with that world's environment and it's inhabitants. In an FPS you interact by shooting things or opening doors, Tomb Raider is all about exploring and interacting with keys, Splinter Cell you interact with many objects and explore many different locals... So which of these is an adventure game? Doesn't matter, the words adventure game is so vague now as I said. Back a few years ago it was a little easier. You had Maniac Mansion and King's Quest and then you had Marble Madness and Duck's Ahoy. Two of them are adventure games and two of them are puzzle games.

So yes, defining an adventure game is personal now-a-days [or leave it up to the developer to decide for you (and by that I mean you know it's an adventure game when they cancel it)] and it's a lot harder to pin point when something is an adventure game and when it's an FPS with adventure elements...

I must apologize but it's 4 am and I kind of lost my point... so...

Tomb Raider - No
LBA - Never played
Alone in the Dark 4 - Never played but if it's anything like Resident Evil, no
Dino Crisis - Nay
Zelda - Ocarina of Time - Yes
Mario 64 - No
Resident Evil - No [has it's own genre anyway, survival horror]

DanClarke · Sat 17/04/2004 11:10:40

Quote from: redruM on Fri 16/04/2004 22:12:07
1) - I think "interactive story that can entertain me as much as a good film/book". The first image is the main menu of Gabriel Knight 1.

2) Those are technicalities. A true adventure game is beyond that. A good example of that is Grim Fandango. What makes an adventure game is the concept, not the execution.

3) Sierra (don't think they have been making adventures), LucasArts (ditto), Microids (Syberia 1 and 2, Post Mortem)... plus assorted games whose company is unknown to me, like CSI, Black Mirror...

4) Gabriel Knight (the whole series), Phantasmagoria, Syberia, Loom, Black Dahlia (despite the amount of hard, gratuitous puzzles. The game is so good, it survives those).

EDIT - Damn, I forgot Grim Fandango and King's Quest 2 VGA. Oh well. So much for top 5... anyone go for top 7?

Phantasmagoria? Please tell me you're joking.

Ali · Sat 17/04/2004 12:24:35

1. In third person terms I think of a game where the lead character will have a character rather than be a representation of me on screen, jumping when I press jump and so on. In terms of first person adventures, I think of a sense of exploration and discovery.

2. Characters are key. You can have an action game with or without characters, they might be a bonus but they aren't essential. An adventure without characters, or without evidence of intelligent life, would be no adventure at all.

3. Revolution Software (Broken Sword series) UbiSoft made Exile... um...

4. Full Throttle, Riven, Monkey Island, Broken Sword 1... um...

Wormmaster · Sat 17/04/2004 13:00:56

Quote from: Ami on Sat 17/04/2004 04:18:39
Another question:

Would you consider these games to be adventure games (And yes, I realize that some of them are not adventure games at all, it's part of the question):

Tomb Raider
LBA
Alone in the Dark 4
Dino Crisis
Zelda - Ocarina of Time
Mario 64
Resident Evil

Hmmm...
Tomb Raider = NOT AN ADVENTURE!!! IT'S ACTIONGAME!!!
LBA = Dunno, Gasp...
Alone in the Dark 4 = This is adventure!
Dino Crisis = Dunno, Gasp...
Zelda - ocarina of time = RPG
Mario 64 = Yes.
Resident Evil = ACTION!!!

Damien · Sat 17/04/2004 13:16:33

1. 2d backgrounds & pixelated sprites, point & click, MI1, 2 & 3, DOTT, Sam 'n Max

2.puzzles, point 'n' click, talk, use, look functions.

3.I don't know any from the past three years

4.Full Throttle, MI 1, 2 & 3, DOTT.
There are more: Sam and Max, FoA, The Dig, Broken sword 1&2, Goblins3

Would you consider these games to be adventure games
Tomb Raider-no
LBA-yes
Alone in the Dark 4-no
Dino Crisis-no
Zelda - Ocarina of Time-didn't play it
Mario 64-no
Resident Evil-no

m0ds · Sat 17/04/2004 16:13:59

Tomb Raider - No
LBA - Yes
Alone in the Dark 4 - Yes
Dino Crisis - No
Zelda - Ocarina of Time - Dunno
Mario 64 - No
Resident Evil - No

Czar · Sat 17/04/2004 16:57:37

Maybe this has been said but it is curious that a lot of you answered on the first question, under no.2 (adv. necesserities) with stuff that represent games like Tomb raider, fallout, etc.

Kweepa · Sat 17/04/2004 18:38:03

Well, #2 is an impossible question really.

But anyway the way I read it was not "give game elements that classify a game as an adventure", but "give game elements that are necessarily in an adventure".

So a game that has an inventory and a plot isn't automatically an adventure.

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Sat 17/04/2004 18:39:13

Should I quote my own posts at this time (as well as Mr. Colossal's)?

Czar · Sat 17/04/2004 19:28:08

sorreh redrum... I skipped a few posts

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Sat 17/04/2004 19:41:52

No worries, Bruce.

(obscure reference to Monty Python, Terry Pratchett and possibly something else...)

Radiant · Mon 19/04/2004 13:26:49

Quote from: Ami on Fri 16/04/2004 17:49:21
1. When you hear the term "adventure game", what do you think? Point n' Click in 256 colours? Keyboard Controlled with 3D enviroments such as Grim? Or Lara Croft? What's the first, and most familiar/comfortable image that springs to mind when you hear that term?

On a gliding scale... text-based adventures (i.e. ADVENT, Zork); text-based with graphics (i.e. The Hobbit, Spellcasting series); animated with text entry (i.e. any Sierra classic); and animated with point-n-click (...)
Personally I prefer the third; I like text entry. If that's not available I'd like a panel with a lot of verbs on it, such as in LucasArts (then LucasFilm) classics. The walk/look/touch/talk icons feel a bit limited.
Color depth and/or 3-d-ness make no difference to me.

Quote
2. What do you think are absolute neseccities for a game to fall into the adventure genre? I mean, is an adventure game the same without a Point n' Click interface? Is a keyboard control system as good as a mouse control system?

Puzzles are a necessity (one may argue that Mixed-Up Mother Goose isn't much of an adventure). These could be object-related puzzles, search puzzles or conversation puzzles, or possibly others.
What in my opinion doesn't count are logic puzzles (i.e. soko-ban stuff or anything from the Seventh Guest) or riddles (i.e. the old man from Hugo's). I'm not saying that these shouldn't appear in adventure games, but that they shouldn't be the main focus, and including them does not make a game an adventure. What also doesn't count is pixel-hunting.
Also you should be able to think your way through with no hurries. Of course there can be arcade sequences or time-limited puzzles but again these should not be the main focus of the game.
I believe the key difference, is that in an adventure game you have to wonder what exactly you have to do (or how you have to do it), and once you've figured that out actually doing it is easy. I.e. how do I cross the troll on the bridge (KQI/StS/Monkey/...) or how to get out of the university without a hall pass (Spc201). In comparison, in action games (Zelda/Mario/Tomb raider) it is generally obvious what you have to do (kill the baddies, hit the buttons in correct order, time your jumps carefully) but pulling it off requires practice.

Quote
3. Name the current developers/publishers of Adventure Games that you know, and the titles they've released/are working on in the past three years.

Tierra/AGDI - QfGIIvga, KQII+, KQIvga
Femo Duo - Enclosure
I can't think of any commercial or industry big-guys working on adventure games at the moment.

Quote
4. Name your top five adventure games of all time.

Loom. King's Quest VI and II+. Monkey Island I and II. Spellcasting 201. Enchanter/Sorceror/Spellbreaker.
(in no particular order)

Quote
Would you consider these games to be adventure games (And yes, I realize that some of them are not adventure games at all, it's part of the question):
Tomb Raider
LBA
Alone in the Dark 4
Dino Crisis
Zelda - Ocarina of Time
Mario 64
Resident Evil

I haven't played most of them but I wouldn't include any of them in my definition. Note of course that definitions vary. I believe Tomb Raider is a first-person shooter (FPS). Mario has been a platform game but I haven't played '64. The Zelda series were originally labeled action-adventure, I believe.

jetxl · Mon 19/04/2004 15:23:46

Quote from: Ami on Sat 17/04/2004 04:18:39
Another question:
Tomb Raider
LBA
Alone in the Dark 4
Dino Crisis
Zelda - Ocarina of Time
Mario 64
Resident Evil

Tomb Raider. No, it's action-adventure. Just like Max Payne, you enter a room shoot everything that mover, flip the switch and enter through the next door.

Little Big Adventure. I played a little a long time ago, but I don't think it has adventure puzzles.

AitD 1-4. YES. You have to shoot monsters from time to time, but when they're gone you still have to solve the puzzles. (and you can't shoot open locks)

DC. Havn't played it, but looks more action then horror.

Zelda OoT. Zelda has always been a RPG (IMO), but this time it's in 3-D and more action-adventure.

Mario 64. No. They say it's an adventure, but they mean a new Mario adventure. (3-D Platform all the way)

RE. YES. Survival horror games ARE adventure games!
Arguements:
They are story driven. (they got 10x more story then a horror film)
The story has some plot twists and secrets to be revealed.
You have to solve puzzles to get further in the game. (and in the story)
You have an inventory with objects to solve puzzles.
You have to explore and use your head.
Ammo is rare. Sometimes it's better to run away. (in shooters, you can't run out of ammo and get point for every kill)

Kinoko · Mon 19/04/2004 15:26:54

1. Lucasarts and Sierra, predominantly (gee, what a shock).

2. I think perhaps, if I had to say something... inventory that you use to solve puzzles. I agree with everyone who has said that it's essentially undefinable. It's a combination of several things and the feeling of the game. I thought "Lack of a battle system" was a good one, but then I remembered the QFG games.

3. Dunno really.

4. 1. Monkey Island 1
2. Monkey Island 2
3. Simon the Sorcerer 2 (I can't believe noone ever mentions this game!)
4. QFG 2
5. QFG 1

It's not in my top 5 but I thought it was worth a mention - does anyone remember a great, early, text-based adventure game called Legend? You were on an island yadda yadda... Man, I loved that but never finished it. If anyone knows where I could get a copy, please let me know!

I don't think any of those other games like Zelda are adventure games, either.

Some Adventure Game Research

m0ds