Combat systems in adventure...

[Technocrat]

In some cases, I think they'd be inappropriate. After all, in the kinds of adventure my mother plays, they wouldn't appeal to her, nor would she probably be able to cope wih twitch reflex fighting systems.

However, I'm thinking of including at least some elements of combat in future, and having just been playing BloodNet (whose combat, in my opinion, sucks), I was wondering what folk on here thought was their favourite fighting system, or would be the most appropriate for an adventure? Real-time fighty like Indiana Jones? Turn-based JRPG-style group combat? Something altogether entirely stranger?

[ThreeOhFour]

I thought Gemini Rue handled combat reasonably well.

Dreamfall had *awful* combat, as most people probably agree. Personally, though, my favourite kinds of "combat" style situations in adventure games are the ones where the fighting is secretly a puzzle - like in Full Throttle. It's not that I dislike fighting in games, but when I play an adventure game, puzzles is what I'm playing for.

[Anian]

Combat kind of gives extra gameplay and makes stuff more varied. It doesn't really matter if it's real time or turn based, but there should be a strategic or puzzle element to it, I mean one second you're playing point and click and the next you have to play a round of Call of duty, it just doesn't make sense.
I mean it usually comes down to quick time events, but there's a way to mask that in all sorts of way. In the end these games are called adventure, what adventure isn't more fun with a bit of combat. Though usually in lets say a final showdown with a villain, adventure games offer an inteligent solution out of the fight (Broken sword did that often), this is something different.
I mean A LOT of people remember insult sword fighting from Monkey Island series, that's a good example.

Full throtle had a few strange elements, like the car derby (which I hated) and the motorcycle fights, which were kind of fun, but there wasn't any real adventure/puzzle element to it. I remember just smashing keys on FT bike fights, though they did make sense in context of story and actually contributed to character and story.
Dreamfall...I don't really remember the fights except that one sword fight, so I think that's my thoughts on that, though I don't really remember a lot of Dreamfall in general (I kind of liked it, but I remember Longest journey much more vividly).

As a good example, in Last express there's a fight in the begining (and later there's more) where a character tries to cut you with a knife and the way you "fight" is that you see the gesture NPC is making when he's about to attack, then you press on spot and you dodge the attack, when you do that 2-3 times, another hotspot opens up and next time when the NPC attacks you can either dodge again or to end the fight you press on that hotspot where the action is basically that your character dodges the attack and grabs the knife and thus stops/wins (because it's not the aim to kill).
That's a tense moment, variation from the rest of the gameplay, it is intergrated into the story not just glued on and thus it fits nicely. And it also isn't used that much (only a few times in the game), but breaks the monotony.

[Eggie]

So many adventure games chug along nicely then suddenly start sucking for the duration of their poorly conceived 'action bits'.

I'm not opposed to hybrid genres but I think if you're going to include a combat system you should really commit and weave it into the day-to-day playing of the game, suddenly changing the game mechanics is jarring.

[Ali]

I think Beyond Good and Evil is the best hybrid I can think of. The action was energetic, but not too intense for an adventure gamer. The stealth sequences were challenging, and it had strong enough adventure elements to pull me through the story.

[Radiant]

TSOMI has a very good combat system.

And yeah, I'm not too fond of action sequences in adventure games. For a player, the main problem is that they tend to be poorly designed; for a designer, the main problem is that they appeal to a wholly different audience.

[Igor Hardy]

Indiana Jones, the original 3 Alone in the Dark games, Gemini Rue - those had really great combat systems.

I agree with Ben (Throttle) about Full Throttle.

I liked the mix of detective and action levels in Insecticide. Made sense since you were on the police force.

jRPGs combat is boring. Though some combat systems in Quest for Glory games were tolerable. Maybe only because the fights didn't happen too often.

Well, something tactical/turn-based could definitely be fun, if it was based more on strategic thinking than grinding and stats.

[Babar]

The combat in Full Throttle was kinda....really badly designed, wasn't it?

I don't really mind combat in adventure games....in some games it was a fun change of pace (especially those minigames in Sierra, for example, where it automatically saved just before the sequence started, and also gave you the option to skip it), and in some games it really would be odd if they didn't include it, considering the context- Full Throttle for example, Indiana Jones, Monkey Island etc.

King's Quest VI had a sword-fighting sequence at the end, that was basically just clicking, but it really upped the tension, considering that they usually didn't ever involve fighting at all. Another great sequence was on top of the trains in Heart of China, that REALLY was full of tension and added to the mood of the game (the following tank sequence was also great fun for me, especially in terms of technology...I think it was real 3D).

I suppose there is a difference between action sequences (requiring quick reflexes, putting under tension, etc.) and combat sequences, which needn't necessarily involve "action". I would count the bit at the end of King's Quest VI as combat, as well as the (wonderful puzzle) battle at the end of King's Quest V. If it action, I suppose they should include a skip option, and maybe make it generally easier than something in an action game (like the skating and hoverspeeding in Space Quest).

[JJS]

Indiana Jones, the original 3 Alone in the Dark games, Gemini Rue - those had really great combat systems.

In my opinion the combat in AitD is truly horrible because the only winning strategy is stunlocking the enemy. So whoever lands the first hit wins unless he runs out of ammo. This is caused by long recovery animations when hit and a very noticable delay between pressing the trigger and actually firing.

[Igor Hardy]

What was badly designed about the Full Throttle fights? Opponents' weaknesses and specific weapons' advantages might have been better hinted, but I thought it was pretty well done considering it was all shown just through animation.

It's my favorite part of the whole game actually (well, that, the voices, the writing and the cutscenes).

Now the finale puzzles with the airplane controls - that was really badly designed and sort of anticlimactic.

In my opinion the combat in AitD is truly horrible because the only winning strategy is stunlocking the enemy. So whoever lands the first hit wins unless he runs out of ammo. This is caused by long recovery animations when hit and a very noticable delay between pressing the trigger and actually firing.

It wasn't perfect, but it was fun to master all the nuances and use them to your advantage. Of course knowing the enemies movement patterns in situations you already died before helped immensely.

The Last Express had combat scenes I didn't particularly mind, but they were very simple QTE like stuff and their best value was the cinematic presentation they had.

[Ilyich]

I agree that Beyond Good & Evil had the best combat system in adventure games, but that's not really helpful because BGE is mostly action, and the main problem here is the change of pacing. Also, it's usually not very good when the combat bits feel like a mini-game that's been thrown in the game just to 'spice things up'.

I think that turn-based combat similar to X-COM, Fallout or Jagged Alliance might've worked, if extremely well done, but then it probably has to be an integral part of the game. And it's quite hard to do.

Gemini Rue and Blade Runner(the game) did the gun combat thing kinda well, so that's probably the most logical way to go.

[Tabata]

Best combat-system in an adventuregame for me is a skippable one

If I am stumbling into a fight, I try it but it is rare, that I can handle it and near to never, that it is much fun for me.
Maybe I am a "typical" girl about this, but I prefer using poison, create traps or something else without a "real" fight to get rid of my enemies 

       

[Igor Hardy]

Maybe I am a "typical" girl about this, but I prefer using poison, create traps or something else without a "real" fight to get rid of my enemies 

       

Stealh games style of play then? Could work great too.

[Babar]

What was badly designed about the Full Throttle fights? Opponents' weaknesses and specific weapons' advantages might have been better hinted, but I thought it was pretty well done considering it was all shown just through animation.

The "design" and concept of it may have been fine (this works against that, this works against that, etc.), but the actual mechanics and implementation of it were horrible. Am I the only one who remembered this? Having to align exactly so as to be able to hit one point on the other bike EXACTLY, otherwise the hit wouldn't register, and no actual visual indicator of where was what? The frustrating feeling that unless you got the weapon with the very longest reach (I don't remember what it was anymore, but I remember it was the only one I used after that, and I'm not talking about the final weapon), all your shots would fall short?
It can't just have been me, I remember even Tim Schafer admitting as much in an interview he did about Psychonauts.

Even in Beyond Good and Evil I'd say the combat (and also some of the stealth levels) were a bit frustrating. Not frustrating enough for me to not finish it, of course, , but still..

[Icey]

[across assault battle system] 

[Igor Hardy]

What was badly designed about the Full Throttle fights? Opponents' weaknesses and specific weapons' advantages might have been better hinted, but I thought it was pretty well done considering it was all shown just through animation.

The "design" and concept of it may have been fine (this works against that, this works against that, etc.), but the actual mechanics and implementation of it were horrible. Am I the only one who remembered this? Having to align exactly so as to be able to hit one point on the other bike EXACTLY, otherwise the hit wouldn't register, and no actual visual indicator of where was what? The frustrating feeling that unless you got the weapon with the very longest reach (I don't remember what it was anymore, but I remember it was the only one I used after that, and I'm not talking about the final weapon), all your shots would fall short?
It can't just have been me, I remember even Tim Schafer admitting as much in an interview he did about Psychonauts.

Hmm... I don't remember it being that clunky. I remember it being at least much less clunky than Psychonauts though.

[Eggie]

Alone in the Dark is a cool combat adventure, Resident Evil's cooler. I just played the first two recently and I adore how traditionally adventure gamey it is; but that pretty much every puzzle is to help you get herbs and ammo for the action bits (or keys). It's a lovely balance, having to actively defend yourself really makes the stakes feel high. With a standard adventure game you'd be all "I'm moving these statues about...whyyyy?" with RE it's "I'm moving these statues about OR I WILL BE EATEN BY ZOMBIES!"

[Technocrat]

I think in an ideal world, I'd probably make the combat something along the lines of X-Com, because it doesn't require a sudden shift in thought speed to deal with. Maybe just a small tactical environment to fight in...hm...

[Monsieur OUXX]

I think in an ideal world, I'd probably make the combat something along the lines of X-Com, because it doesn't require a sudden shift in thought speed to deal with. Maybe just a small tactical environment to fight in...hm...

Yeah, I think that even if you found the perfect arcade gameplay, it would still fit awkwardly in the pace of a point-n-click (even though Last Express' combats are a good compromise as they are very intuitive).
So in my humble opinion you're right to switch back to something like XCom (or like Japanese RPG as it has been suggested above).

Will you consider making your combat system a module from the beginning?

[Snarky]

Hmm... I don't remember it being that clunky. I remember it being at least much less clunky than Psychonauts though.

Huh? Psychonauts played fine, at least with a controller.