Jokes in Adventure Games (getting the balance right)

[Dadalus]

Hi,

I'm currently designing a game which will have a lot of jokes in it. I'm worried that it might be a bit joke heavy, so I'm seeking sage counsel.

What do you think is the right balance between jokes/puzzles/action?
Do you prefer visual gags or wordy puns?
Do you like old school, pythonesque or satirical jokes?

In short I'm trying to get an idea of what my target audience likes and what the right balance is.

Any thoughts or suggestions would help.

[Fitz]

There's no one way to satisfy everyone -- just do what feels natural to you. If I were to give you a hint in any direction, though, I'd say think of the base material -- Danger Mouse and Count Duckula -- and the kind of humor those represented, and try to work with that.

[Gribbler]

My advice? Make a game funny to you. Only then your humor will be natural and you'll have most fun developing the game. You like Pythons? Make it pythonesque. Don't seek common denominator. It's impossible to satisfy everyone. At least that's what my experience with gamemaking taught me.

[Dadalus]

I take your point fitz & gribbler, trying to satisfy everyone will only end up in satisfying no one. Good point and certainly the approach I'll be taking is making a game I enjoy. The trouble is you can get too engrossed with a project your working on and not look at it in a critical light, was trying to get a feel for what others think.

Perhaps some clarification is in order. I personally have played games where the player and an NPC are chatting along quite nicely while I'm at my keyboard screaming 'GET ON WITH IT' (really hate games that don't allow you to skip chat). In the game I'm developing humor is a big part of the appeal, but that can lead to long(ish) periods where you as the player feel like your a spectator not a participant. I'm just trying to get an idea if others feel that way. To tackle that issue I've thought of using visual gags in the background as one approach, leaving the player free to continue exploring etc. Its a more tricky approach, its just something I'm mulling over.

[Gribbler]

the player and an NPC are chatting along quite nicely while I'm at my keyboard screaming 'GET ON WITH IT' (really hate games that don't allow you to skip chat).

Don't play my game.

[Fitz]

the player and an NPC are chatting along quite nicely while I'm at my keyboard screaming 'GET ON WITH IT' (really hate games that don't allow you to skip chat).

Don't play my game.

Or mine . I actually made it my ambition to write lenghty responses to every action in "Gray" -- so there are walls of texts to get through and it's too much for most people. Did I expect it? Yeah. Do I feel like I failed? No. It was super fun to write. But theeeeen I had to go over all of it for the Polish translation -- and I get how the players felt So in "Monty" there is no spoken dialogue at all . Play that one, if you dare

[Stupot]

I'm a sucker for wordplay. I love a good pun, especially if it's one I haven't already thought of.
Maybe you could change Penfold's name to Punfold and just have him telling dad jokes throughout the whole game... Or not, hehe.

Visual humour, too, is important to me but this may require more in terms of animation. If you think you've got the time and patience to make loads of funny animations, then great. Not me though. Can't animate to save my life.

That said, I advise laying off the three-headed monkey island references for a while. We've kinda been there and done that to death now.

[Dadalus]

To fitz & Gribbler : Opps, didnt know you both had wordy games, but each to his own. Will give monty a look.

To Stupot+ : thanks for the input, no three-headed monkey island jokes I promise (though there is a visual nod to MI, its very brief 1 second at most). The jokes will mostly be puns and visual gags. I have no idea how good an animator I am as its not something I've tackled before. Currently reading the Animators Survival Kit.

[Slasher]

I think that if something is so funny that it makes your ribs ache and provided it is not stupid you can add it as light relief after something has happened, like a James Bond quip

Even visual gags can at times be so dam funny. Imagine being got at by a wild dog, you turn around and there is a great big hole in your pants, the look on the players face should be priceless

[Trapezoid]

Depends on the game obviously! But it does seem like a pretty common pitfall of interaction writing is trying too hard to make every line funny or sarcastic, and you end up with a game that's lacking in baseline sincerity. Think of a game you know is hilarious, replay it, and take note of how often lines are jokes, how much of the humor is quip vs. situational, etc.

[Dadalus]

Well it seems that the general consensus is 'Do a game you think is funny'.

Its definitely a starting point but I don't know if thats the full solution. I like Trapezoids suggestion about replaying past games to get a feel for what works, that feels like more of a way to tackle the issue.

[tzachs]

You're asking for the holy grail.
There is a very fine line between a funny dialogue and a tedious one.
I think the best way to tackle it is to let people who you think have the "right" sense of humor to enjoy the game play it, and see their reactions. You'll be able to spot which jokes work and which don't.
But even that might not be enough, as I can find a dialogue funny on a Monday and not funny on a Tuesday, depending on my mood at that day.
So good luck with that..
One last thought- I think the beginning of the game is very important, if you find the first jokes funny, you'll probably be more inclined to laugh at the rest of jokes too, even if they're not as good.

[Dadalus]

I don't think I'm looking for the Holy Grail (claps two half coconut shells together).

Doing a little research into it I looked at stand up comedians. They craft jokes that they find are funny, but very few would do an act without testing them out. They do their act before smaller audiences, refining, and sometimes dropping, jokes along the way.

So testing seems to be an appropriate method of polishing the game.

I like what tzachs says about the beginning of the game, setting your stall out early on seems like a good idea.

At the moment I think my approach should be to :

1. Get a rough draft of the game together.
2. Test out sections of the game with differing groups.
3. Refine based on reactions, and perhaps repeat 2.

More or less what tzachs is suggesting, though I think a wide range of people would be more fitting.

Or maybe I'm just over thinking. Hold on Ive just seen a shrubbery salesman...

[Mandle]

Another thing I remembered, which is something I noticed in TV shows like The Simpsons (back when it was still funny I mean) etc.

They paced their real side splitting jokes well by making sure there was a "cool down" period in between filled with "just a chuckle" jokes before hitting you with the next "killer gag"...

If all the super-funny stuff is clumped together in one spot it reduces the impact of the jokes quite a bit. You have to give the audience time to calm down again after a great joke, occupy them with some low-key humour, and then spring the next biggie on them.

Easier said than done of course (especially if the game structure is very non-linear), but I think important to keep in mind when timing humour.

[Dadalus]

They paced their real side splitting jokes well by making sure there was a "cool down" period in between filed with "just a chuckle" jokes before hitting you with the next "killer gag"...

That reminds me of something that was in a book on magic theory (about showmanship not actual illusions) called 'Strong Magic' by Darwin Ortiz . One of its suggestions was waves of performance, start off slow, hit your peak, taper off then repeat with each peak slightly higher than the last.

Cheers Mandle, you've reminded me of an old book I haven't read in over a decade, Im going to have to dig it out now

[Mandle]

They paced their real side splitting jokes well by making sure there was a "cool down" period in between filed with "just a chuckle" jokes before hitting you with the next "killer gag"...

That reminds me of something that was in a book on magic theory (about showmanship not actual illusions) called 'Strong Magic' by Darwin Ortiz . One of its suggestions was waves of performance, start off slow, hit your peak, taper off then repeat with each peak slightly higher than the last.

Cheers Mandle, you've reminded me of an old book I haven't read in over a decade, Im going to have to dig it out now

Very interesting indeed...I would say that magic and humour are both very similar disciplines in fact:

Both rely on the element of surprise to provoke laughter or amazement: You don't laugh at a joke if you saw the punchline coming, and you don't gape at a magic trick if you knew what was going to happen...

Magicians also tend to include a lot of comedy in their acts...well, the banter also distracts the audience from the mechanics of the trick that are being put in place

Sounds like a good read though...An adventure game is also kinda like a magic show, so probably worth a read for developers...

[Baron]

I'd say, unlike magic, start with something really funny.  If you take too long to build that funny atmosphere, you'll lose the attention of the player.  If it's a funny game, you gotta show that it's funny right off the bat.  It's called setting the tone.  Play Ben There Dan That (or just watch the first four minutes on YouTube) to see a good example.  The dialogue is short, serving both the entertain (humour) and set the scene.  There is no time for tedium: the player is thrown right into the game and the humour all at once.

[Dadalus]

Good example Baron. Setting the tone is important and I think that can be done quickly and easily. Love 'Ben There Dan That' and its balance is spot on.

The book I mentioned was about pacing and making the mundane interesting. I think there are many examples of too many jokes spoiling the plot etc, and was looking at various sources to combat that.

I think its time to put this topic to bed. There are better minds than ours (at least mine anyway) that have discussed the right way to present humor, and I suspect we will be going round in circles if we continue.

I shall leave you with this courtesy of Monty Python. Its an example of how to set your tone, pacing, not overloading your audience with rapid-fire jokes and finally how to make the ordinary interesting (think 'My dog has no nose' isn't funny? watch this).

The Funniest Joke In The World

Now if only I had a tenth of their talent.

[Baron]

I think its time to put this topic to bed. There are better minds than ours (at least mine anyway) that have discussed the right way to present humor, and I suspect we will be going round in circles if we continue.

Although I agree with you that we will never in this thread definitively nail down the essence of humour, I would be equally reluctant to trust the "experts".  Humour is a very idiosyncratic thing: what works in one context won't necessarily work in another.  Plus there's a definite shelf life to humour, so what was written at one point in a book might not still be funny.  Have you ever watched a "comedic" movie from the 1950s?  'Nuff said.  And even the best joke ever is somewhat less awesome on the twentieth telling, let alone the hundredth.  So just try humour that you find funny, and keep it fresh (multiple responses, different jokes that no one has thought of before, the unexpected, break the rules, be audacious, etc.).

[Dadalus]

To Baron,

I respectfully disagree with some of the things you've said.

so what was written at one point in a book might not still be funny.  Have you ever watched a "comedic" movie from the 1950s?  'Nuff said.

Hmm, 'Some like it hot (1959)', 'The Seven year Itch (1955)','The Lavender Hill Mob (1951)','The Man in the White Suit (1951)','Hobson's Choice (1954)' and 'The Quiet Man (1952)'. I could go on, even films from the 30s can still be funny 'Duck Soup (1933)' for example. Don't want to start a war, just a difference of opinion.

And even the best joke ever is somewhat less awesome on the twentieth telling, let alone the hundredth

Ever seen a performance from Monty Python Live? The audience are chanting the jokes, that many have seen countless times. Watch their 'Live at the Hollywood Bowl' performance.

I am being a little unfair, Ive given examples that are classics, and Ive yet to see anyone match Monty Python. There are counterpoints to any argument.

I agree with keeping it fresh and unexpected.

Someone (I cant remember offhand who) once said 'Funny is whatever makes you laugh'.