Photo Sprites

frenzykitty · Sat 13/04/2013 12:10:55

Hey everyone. Now I know this topic has been discussed before, but as i am a filmmaker by profession (and have been working as a Cinematographer and Editor for the last 10 years) I would like effectively use photos as sprites for my new game.

I know it's a bit of a hot topic, but some games (e.g. Donna) seem to have been well received and they used this technique.

So my question is twofold - why do you think the technique works in some games, like Donna, and not in others? And also, do you have any suggestions for techniques or other games that you think used the technique well?

Thanks

Armageddon · Sat 13/04/2013 12:21:39

I don't think it has worked in any game, ever. It still just doesn't feel right, it's never smooth, the moving characters are never lit properly. I'd highly suggest not doing it.

Anian · Sat 13/04/2013 12:35:07

Look and style of the game is defined by the story you want to tell and what atmosphere you're trying to achieve.

Personally, I find photos weirdly looking in games, something always looks inconsistent. Horror and surrealist style usually is better suited for photos, just because of that "something is off" feeling.

You can try FMV or stop-motion as well, whatever works for you. Since this community usually deals with freeware games, only thing you really have to lose is that nobody will play your game, but other than that you are given a nice tool to try whatever you like.

frenzykitty · Sat 13/04/2013 16:40:47

Hmmmmm. Interesting... So the general consensus seems to be "Passionate Hatred"

Just kidding.

I thought I could bring my film-making expertise (shooting actors on green-screens to generate walk-cycles etc.) Perhaps I should make a small "proof of concept" game to see if it is worth pursuing?

Thoughts?

Tramponline · Sat 13/04/2013 20:32:05

I think it's a brilliant idea!! Especially, with your background. Go for it!

Yes, it may be true that the majority of games produced during the '90s FMV craze were utter crap and lacking in so and so many ways.
(All the more reason to produce something of value using that technique!)

Think back for a moment, guys and compare the technical limitations of those days with the technical standards we have today (...and progressing) -
game production and film making alike. (new technique in a new medium, resolution, memory restrictions, affordable equipment, post-production modalities... ...etc.)

However, that is not even the point IMO. I'm indeed fairly certain they could've produced more brilliant games even in those days. Just not many desingers seem
to have bothered to do so at the time. To me it looks nowadays like a slight case of a medium's technical side 'taking over' it's narrative side, rather than vice versa.

I thoroughly enjoyed "Gabriel Knight 2: The Beast Within" at that time. (6 or 7 CDs(!),can't remember, see technical limitations

).
A FMV title with great atmosphere and when it ended, I felt deeply affected by what I had just witnessed. (Not sure if it still holds up today, haven't played it in ages.)

Another game using the green-screen technique, here on the AGS forums, is "The Face of Corruption" by Xenogia. Unfortunately due to some 'complications' during production it is somehwhat in hiatus at the moment and all the photo links seem to be broken.
It looks very, very promising. You can still check out the youtube links in the first post to get an impression of the game.
Maybe even drop him a PM. I'm quite sure some of his experiences might be of value to you.

Could write more, but I'm too tired right now - another time.

Goldmund · Sat 13/04/2013 20:32:51

Hi Frenzykitty,

well I, for one, dig the look of Donna ;-)

I think the style is best suited for horror, alternative (cut-out, like Monthy Python interludes) or first person.

The thing is that with characters themselves looking so realistic, animations are bound to be lacking unless you put a lot of work into that. If you have 16 px x 16 px sprites, nobody cares if there are 2-frame animations.

Also, if you're going for realistic mood, I think you should forget about color if you're going to have photo backgrounds as well. Imagine correcting color for each walkcycle in a new room.

Other than that, knock yourself out ;-) It's quite odd to read about "not smooth animations" and "errors in lighting" on a forum for amateur game makers. Hotline Miami, ok?

I'm looking forward to the results of your endeavors! :-)

Trapezoid · Sun 14/04/2013 05:02:03

I guess part of the queasiness of photo/video elements is that it makes it more obvious when you jump from one animation to another (turning, or walking and then stopping.) Animation and pixel art is less jarring because it's in an abstract realm; your imagination fills in the blanks.

Gilbert · Sun 14/04/2013 10:10:55

Even for animated sprites they can go wrong. For example, KQ7 looked horrible and the claymation sprites in later SCI games weren't as good as AGI or earlier SCI games either (ok... claymation may fall in the category of photographed sprites).

Anyway, this is great.

Goldmund · Sun 14/04/2013 10:31:05

The thing is that our opinion on queasiness of FMV is based on games made very long ago, as Trampoline noted. Don't look at Donna, it's an amateur effort and I didn't really care about smoothness of animations. But I'm sure that with today technology a great-looking FMV is very much possible.

Khris · Sun 14/04/2013 10:47:50

I actually doubt that, because you'd have to have a sprite of every conceivable pose or stance in order for it to look good. Which is why the game industry abandoned FMV a long time ago and turned to upping the polygon count and motion capturing instead.

But yes, I loathe photo sprites with a passion, so I guess I'm biased

(Also GK2 was one of the most ridiculous, boring and ugly games I've ever played.)

Stupot · Sun 14/04/2013 12:05:17

Photo sprites are hit and miss, with an emphasis on miss. But that doesn't mean interesting results can't be achieved.

Regarding FMV. For me, The X-files game was one of the best FMV adventures going. Check it out if you haven't already.

frenzykitty · Sun 14/04/2013 12:08:02

It looks like there are a lot of very varied responses to this topic. I think I'm gonna go for it (shoot all my character sprites on green screen) and slowly build up the game from there. I'm thinking of doing a very in-depth production diary/behind the scenes video. Is that something people might be keen to see?

Stupot · Sun 14/04/2013 12:10:52

Quote from: frenzykitty on Sun 14/04/2013 12:08:02I'm thinking of doing a very in-depth production diary/behind the scenes video. Is that something people might be keen to see?

Definitely. Do it!

frenzykitty · Sun 14/04/2013 12:13:12

The actual coding part might be a total pain for guys like you to watch (as I am an AGS beginner) but the rest might be interesting.

Armageddon · Sun 14/04/2013 12:14:12

You're going to have to rent a huge green screen room.

frenzykitty · Sun 14/04/2013 12:24:31

As a filmmaker I have access to these things

Ali · Sun 14/04/2013 12:27:16

I think the problem is that photographic games are stil composed like old sierra adventures. Characters are seen from head to foot throughout, which is rarely the case with film and photography.

I'd say do it, but don't film someone walking on a treadmill against greenscreen in 8 directions. Make a first-person game, and create good, interesting compositions with a range of shot sizes.

miguel · Sun 14/04/2013 12:31:02

My opinion on this is pretty much what has been said regarding negative issues with photo sprites.
There is the light issue and Goldmund had to turn every frame into a small gray pallete, it worked in his game but I guess it restricts the genre into horror and similar.
The angle that you will shoot your characters will be a massive task when trying to fit it into backgrounds.
But this said, and because you have cinema experience, you can be starting something that no one achieved before.
If you have the time and will to build cinematic rooms with different angles and thousands of sprites then it can become something really cool.

At the moment, nobody did it really well. But that doesn't mean you can't do it.

Tabata · Sun 14/04/2013 12:54:12

Quote from: Stupot+ on Sun 14/04/2013 12:10:52
Quote from: frenzykitty on Sun 14/04/2013 12:08:02I'm thinking of doing a very in-depth production diary/behind the scenes video. Is that something people might be keen to see?
Definitely. Do it!

+ 1

I'd love to see such a vid - please do!

frenzykitty · Sun 14/04/2013 14:24:28

I'm definitely going to do it - follow the whole process - story development, game design, sprite creation, filming and photography, sound and music, testing and release

Who knows - may even end up feature length: "the making of an independent zero budget adventure game"