the ags/glumol/scramm and any engine review--Talk abou told AGS members too

[Joseph DiPerla]

Its funny that at the time that SCRAMM and GLUMOL were being developed, that noone noticed or accepted AGS as an engine as powerful as SCRAMM or GLUMOL. I mean, neither project ever showed any REAL progress and yet even people on this board, at the time, were saying how they were gonna stop using AGS and goto Glumol or Scramm.

All I have to see is, where is Glumol? Where is Scramm? They are both gone. In fact check out these pages:

http://www.glumol.com/english/
http://www.glumol.com/english/diary.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20010611154504/www.scramm.org/feature.shtml

I got both sites off of the webarchives.

Lets look at the features that Glumol offered its users:

*Includes/Defines/ Macros/Conditional Parising --- This is already possible in AGS
*New Types definition --- Possible in AGS
*Arrays -- Possible in AGS
*Global Variables --- Possible in AGS
*Classes, structures and unions -- Already possible in AGS
*Local Variables, Parameters, Return Values -- Already Possible in AGS
*Comments -- Possible in AGS
*Conditionals -- Possible in AGS
*Loops -- Also possible in AGS.
*IDE (Objects, Characters, Scenes, Script editor, etc...) -- This was always possible in AGS. The only thing not possible is the fact that it cant import SCUMM Stuff. Of course, this can be done VIA a plugin though.  But at the same time we can still support SCI Fonts I think.
*The Launcher stuff.--- AGS always did all that stuff that Glumol proposed to do.

What about SCRAMM? What features did it promise to its users? I always thought SCRAMM was going to be a Kick-Butt program. And I had faith in it becouse Serge was programming it and he was GOOD! But at the same time, I knew AGS would eventually surpass even SCRAMM. Here are its features that it promised:

*The Lechuck Language-- Modular, OO, C++ like scripting language. Intended to be able to write not only adventures, but even other programs. Engine was to be expanded by modules. --- Holy crap! AGS can do all of this and more!

*The IDE :

- Scripting editor. --- Okay AGS may not support all the stuff that SCRAMM promised, but hey, do you really need all that stuff anyway? We already got Syntax Highlighting and code completion. What more do we need?

- I have no clue what the hell the difference between the Help Tools and the AGS ease of use and manual is. I feel this was unnecessary and could complicate things.

- Compiler/Linker/Builder -- AGS takes care of all of this for us. And we have several options on how to build our games, as well as now we have the option to port the games to Mac and Linux. Be nice if we could get the DOS port back along with a Pocket PC port and an Amiga Port

- Debugger/Tester -- If AGS has this, I have never seen it. But I wouldn't doubt that one day Chris may implement it if its not there already. We do have some in-game debug tools. But I personally use those to cheat instead of Debug.

- File Formats --- AGS supports all the same formats and converts it into its own format during compilation.

- LeChuck scripting -- Too much detail to go into, but once again, AGS goes far and beyond with this. IT includes everything SCRAMM promised and Far Far More. Not only that, but scripting can be enhanced via plugins as well.

- Save game functions --- AGS handles all that too and gives us much flexibility on how we write our Save/Load GUI.

- Screen modes --- AGS supports the screen modes and the resolutions etc... That SCRAMM would have supported.

-- Scrolling rooms with layers(hotspots) -- Yep, AGS always handled this. ALthough I dont think AGS has alpha blending or runtime intelligent color reduction. Also AGS does not directly support Paralax scrolling, but it does support it via Plugins.

- Font editing --- AGS has a system for this as well.

-Special Graphic effects --- Again, AGS has different room transitions and even tinting etc..

-Animation -- All the proposed Animation features that SCRAMM had, AGS currently has.

- Music and Sound --- Same as animation

- Custom interface (100% custom)--- Again, AGS can even have Text parsers in the GUI. AGS is far more advanced than what SCRAMM would have included.

- Custom mouse pointer -- Already done.

- Custom Mouse function -- Already done.

-Keymapping -- This could probably be added at one point.

- Autohighlighting of Verbs -- With a bit of graphics editing and small coding, AGS can do this.

So whats my verdict? AGS is more than what SCRAMM or Glumol were ever meant to be. On top of that, it was released far ahead of them and lasted longer. Heck, these projects never released anything.

There are a few limitations that AGS does have though that other engines have automaticaly built in that AGS doesnt. For instance like Wintermute has support for 3d characters and paralax scrolling. I have no doubt that one day though, AGS will have all these features (That are currently plugins) built in.

On top of that, AGS can create fully 3d applications. Just check out some of the modules, and completed games. I have never seen Wintermute do this. And lets not forget AGAST. In my opinion, this was once more powerful than AGS, just harder to use. But now it is in every way inferior to AGS.

Plus look at some of the great features that AGS has that no other Engine has:

*Ability to run a game inside an AGS game
*Language translations.
*Plugins
*Ease of use
*Ports to Linux, Mac and Windows.
*Game Templates
*Speech in games is possible and very easy to do.
*Easily create a PnC third person adventure or first person adventure as well as text adventure games such as Sierra's style or Questprobe(Scott Adams, Infocom) style games.

On top of that, AGS can now recreate any game from the SCUMM engine, The AGI/SCI engines, AGAST, RoBOT, Maker R2 and any other Adventure game engine.

And if thats not enough, AGS must have the record for most Adventure games ever created by an engine, a great programmer (Who takes the time to talk to his users), and a great community. And most importantly of all, the engine is FREE! And there are no Ridiculous licenses!

My final, final verdict is : AGS is the greatest Adventure game engine EVER! Thanks Chris Jones. And I hope you all enjoyed my opinions and reviews.

EDIT: Seems we are back on topic and more peaceful, so I changed the Topic name. Hope noone minds.

[DoorKnobHandle]

I don't wanna disturb your praise, but I have a little technical correction:

Up to my knowledge, AGS does not support classes (or functions within structs) and their inheritance etc. yet. I can't wait to see that in AGS though. It would then be "real object-oriented"!

Apart from that you're right, AGS is teh king!!11!! 

[scotch]

I think AGS does support functions in structs and inheritance, seen them mentioned in the tech forum, it just isn't documented anywhere, like all the best features!

[m0ds]

And;

Its funny that at the time that SCRAMM and GLUMOL were being developed, that noone noticed or accepted AGS as an engine as powerful as SCRAMM or GLUMOL.

Yes they did!

SCRAMM and GLUMOL never, as you know, existed. What people saw in SCRAMM and GLUMOL was their windows based editing abilities, and that was what was seen to be superior about them. But I think you'll find everyone that was waiting for SCRAMM was still using AGS instead Well - every sensible soul, at least!

Edit- As Petteri says it was quite funny waiting for both! I remember the whole thing with trying to get a screenshot out of Slaughter (SCRAMM's developer) but it never happened, and when it DID it was just a splash screen screenshot! LOL. Then the nice looking website died and so did the forum, and all that was left was the OLD SCRAMM board!! As for GLUMOL - lol, well they had some screenshots at least - but I remember quite a bit of flaming going on at their boards (but then that happened over at SCRAMM, too! ) and then they "released" their engine, some strange 10mb corrupt zip file or something that 2 people in the world claimed they managed to open and do stuff with, or something. Such bull! Jocke Andersson was waiting on the release of GLUMOL to make FoY

[Pet Terry]

Haha, nice digging up that Scramm website! I remember waiting and waiting and visiting that site every now and then, waiting for the engine to be ready. I wasn't hardcore enough to use AGS back then.

I also have faint memories of Glumol website. I remember I was going to use it, too, in one point with my friend. We we're going to make the best adventure game ever! Oh, how silly we were...

[Joseph DiPerla]

Yeah, I remember waiting for SCRAMM. I liked the idea that the editor was in Windows. Your right MODS about that one. But I was still using AGS at the time. I was waiting for SCRAMM so that I can make my own Zak McKracken Sequel. It was also going to be a sequel to DOTT, in which all the characters would interact with eachother. Boy am I glad I never finished that project!

[MrColossal]

Mr. DiPerla, I think you just summed up 90% of the games people waiting for SCRAMM and GLUMOL were going to make...

In that respect, thank the holy hell they died!

[Scummbuddy]

I remember making such rediculous claims as "Well, I guess I'll play with AGS until SCRAMM or Glumol is released. I'm guilty of that.

But if it wasn't for the glumol board, I wouldn't have met my new friend m0ds, or learned what board-trolls were until later.

[m0ds]

Then thank you GLUMOL for prosporous friendships with Scott's, but up yours GLUMOL for wasting half a year of my life!

[Joseph DiPerla]

Sometimes you dont know you have a good thing in front of you until all else fails.

Wait.. Did that make sense.

Man, I dont know why I even wrote that comparisson and review. I just felt that the accomplishments that AGS has made are far and beyond. And I thought this should be recognized. Just a few things missing like I said;

*3d Characters built in
*Flashlight function built in
*Paralax Scrolling built in
*Resolution up to 1024*768
*A port to my favorite Computer the amiga, To the program I play on my PS2 -Dos, and my favorite handheld- PocketPC. Heres hoping.

AGS, Chris, Your still great though!

[ManicMatt]

Board troll? What? If you want to post a comment that'll be five pounds?

Let me google that...

Oh THOSE people!

[edmundito]

Let me remind you all that AGS (back then as Adventuroso Creatori (AC) in made-up latin) used to be a primitive editor that could barely make Sierra-like adventures when there were things made about SCRAMM and GLUMOL. Then AGS (Adventuroso Gamus Studium) came along and SCRAMM and GLUMOL seemed to extinct. And that's how survival of the species works, my friends.

I did see a screenshot of the SCRAMM IDE, once... so it was actually being built. But, it was just way too ambitious, really. What Mr. Pumaman did right was that he incrementally updated the program. SCRAMM was supposed to do everything AGS does now straight "out of the box". Also, Serge only co-designed SCRAMM because he was working on SCUMMRev most of the time, or something. The real mastermind behind it was James "Rethguals" Slaughter.

I was a SCRAMM kid, that's where I met some guy called Francisco Gonzalez who lived in Florida. I wonder what ever happened to him...

[Scummbuddy]

I remember having stupid internet fights with that kid Mekilson or whatever his name was.  He would then be all clever and call me CumBuddy... oh, the hilarity. It was that day that I was determined to be a mod, or something like that.

I think I always felt that Glumol would come. I even defended the makers in the forum when the non-believers started to fight. It was the lack of updates that drove the masses to chaos and the final break-down of the forums.   What's that you say, current glumol page?

Vive Glumol!   

Well, Vive Glumol, indeed.

[MrColossal]

Mekilson, King Super, Worldcreator [I think that was his name], I remember all of them having wonderful fights on the SCRAMM forums. Neole was there too...

King Super and someone else got in a terrific fight about who was a better artist and if Photoshop should have predefined user sets so that different people could use the same program and it would be set up differently... Man, what a useless forum...

But I did meet a guy named Mike [or Matt?] who went to my college and was on the SCRAMM boards... Small world.

[MillsJROSS]

Don't get your hopes up too high. AGS still has to compete with klick and play.

-MillsJROSS

[Joseph DiPerla]

Pfft! Klick n Play. I never liked their software.

I remember having some wars with the guys on the board too.

I remember an E-mail war with Slaughter and Serge. Its funny, I gave up on Glumol when the team never got back to me after sending them soooo many e-mails and ICQ messages. I  looked at the screenshots and were able to re-create it in VB. After putting the evidence together, I realized it was hopeless. Glumol was a fake.

Thats why I stayed with SCRAMM. And if most of you remember me from way back when ( I was one of the first AGS EZboard members, even before MODS ! Thats old man) I never really participated on the boards except to give a billion suggestions. And I would e-mail Serge and Slaughter some suggestions. I remember at one point saying to them, why dont you just release what you have and then upgrade the program as you go along. BOY did they get mad. They started calling me all these names and really took it too far. At that point, AGS was the best just becouse the Creator, Chris Jones, never ever insulted me or anyone else like that.

Good ol Times.

[ManicMatt]

Klik and play?

*Does another google search...*

That looks like it makes boring 2D action games?

[Bernie]

Pfft! Klick n Play. I never liked their software.

That looks like it makes boring 2D action games?

Klik'n Play is really old. Easily over ten years, I think. The recent Clickteam programs are actually quite good. I have several Multimedia Fusion projects going on, too. I'll use it for developing platformers and rpg games until AGS can do multiple copies of objects/characters.

Chrille's 'Urban Joe' game has been made with MMF (http://www.gaspop.com/download.htm#urbanjoe), so I guess it can't be all that bad. Of course, if you find 2d action games boring by default, then this probably doesn't matter to you.

I never heard about GLUMOL and SCRAMM, though. But I'm only 2 AGS years old, so I guess that's no surprise. Either way, go AGS!

[Joseph DiPerla]

Wow, I am still surprised you never heard of Glumol or SCRAMM.

Oh and regarding 2d games, such as Mario games etc... I was a big fan of them. But as I got older, they interested me less and less. For adventure games, Clik n Play just doesnt do it for me.

[ManicMatt]

Well, boring except for the metal slug series, these days.

I've never heard of those two programs either.

I learnt of AGS through this ill-fated magazine called "Gamemaker" which had AGS included on the disc. At the time there was only an aging computer in the house, and when I bought the expensive magazine I was sad to realise the disc was a DVD-ROM and the ancient computer was CD_ROM only. Boo hoo!

So, one of the reasons for saving up and getting a pc this year was AGS!