Expressing Atheism

[MrColossal]

My point is "Why even bother?."

Understanding of the universe, understanding of human thought processes, understanding of the evolution of belief, finding a set of rules that the world can agree on. Because people do amazing and dreadful things in the name of faith, because people kill each other and themselves because god told them, because because because... There are thousands of reason why we should discuss this. It's not a matter of "HAHA I'm right!" as it is "Ok, so I'm right, interesting, what's next?"In my opinion

[LimpingFish]

Yes, question what makes people die for their faith. Why appealing to the faith of the masses is a viable political/commercial platform. Why the need for "faith" itself is so prevalent in the mindset of humanity.

But by concentrating on that which cannot be answered, we divert attention from finding answers closer to ourselves. Answers which may actually be attainable. Answers which may make the existence of God moot.

Like I've said, twice now, why confuse the issue with an unanswerable question?

It's like saying "Right, I'm going to climb this mountian, but first I'm going to dig a pit, as deep as this mountain is tall, and start by climbing out of that."

As to why faith makes people do crazy things, ultimate proof of God is more or less superfluous. These people already believe God exists, and will not be shaken in that belief. Ultimate evidence to disprove the existence of God, as to what form this would take I can't even guess, would mean little to them.

We cannot (in our capacity) prove/disprove the existence of God in any tangible form.

You can try to prove/disprove the genesis of life on earth, but even then the answer will be disputed. And more or less unrelated to God's current existence.

To prove the theory of Creationism (again, I have a hard time seeing how) only really tells us that maybe God/a God-like being (in whatever form) did exist. It doesn't clarify any of the religious connotations humanity has attached to the concept of God Almighty. Sure it would be an earth-shattering revelation, but when the dust had settled someone would ask the question "But does God exist now?"

Finding Noah's Ark buried in a mountain equally has little relevance. Or the Ark of the Covenant. They simply raise more questions, few, if any, leading to a possible answer to "Does God exist?".

There is so much we can learn, and strive to define, that it makes the question of God's existence irrelevant.

And beyond, as I said earlier, God making Itself physically known, what other way can that question be answered?

[MrColossal]

I do believe we are agreeing. I said you can't prove or disprove the random belief in an extra dimensional creator of stuff but you can test the claims attributed to that belief. We agree on this?

I thought I was [because of your apparent frustration in your posts?] misunderstanding you but I'm not. You can test claims made by people as to the nature of religious beliefs but not the various thoughts one has in their head that have no earthly connection. Do we agree to agree? You can test my magical dragon if I say "Every wednesday at 3pm it sneezes visible legos." but if I make no claims then I'm Proof Proofâ,,¢

[Nikolas]

I have two questions really, one hypothetical, the other more... philosophical.

1. What is the use of the religion? In a micro sense, not macro. Because here we are discussing about expressing Atheism, and while it is almost plainly obvious the usage of religion (=communication, community, law, guidance) in a community sense, what about the personal sense?

There is no reason for proof from neither side really. Is God there? Is god there? Is Zeus there? Is it all empty bullshit? Well I know the answer for me. Can't prove it and I sure don't care to. It would be selfish to think that I'm right and everyone else is wrong!

This netrual line of thinking, shown above, goes into my ideas as well. Yes, there could be somthing, no I don't follow any kind of rules from any religion.

Isn't it nice? It's perfect! There is someone out there, who will take care of me + family + friends, and will destroy all my foes (no one thus far), and after death (s)he will accomodate me + family + friends. No strings attached, no rules to follow (<-the greatest of all).

On the rules part, I will confess that I'm a really nice (=naive) guy. I don't steal, cheat, beat, smoke, drink (much), I'm pretty much fine with the 10 commandments . And if you take the "stupid" -Nikolas 1.1 rules from Catholicism (no premarrital sexual relationships, whoops already done, no condoms, whoops already done, and not planning for a third child), then I'm fine with Christianity as well. But I don't go to church, nor I pray before dinner or whatever else.

So, pretty much, whatever comes handy.

If anyone wants to follow my religion PM me, btw

Second question:

2. To all those (including me actually, although I'm semi there) who say they're atheists, agnostics etc. I am really looking forward to an answer here (more as a curiosity, not a way to prove anything, or prove you wrong, or corner you).

Assuming the following:

You have a family, and some children (1-n, the number is of no difference). At one point your most precious child (though you love all of them equalty) is hit by a hit and run bastard! High speed. The child is in coma to the hospital, the doctors can't say anything really, just raise their arms (won't go into the question of organ donor now...  ).

So:

Sitting there next to your commatose child, do you ask someone for something?

I sure do, cause I feel helpless.

Maybe, you atheists have never been in such, or simmilar need?

The above are true and honest questions, not tricks, or anything.

Thank you

[LimpingFish]

Indeed, Mr C'sal, we are in agreement. Just my slight misunderstanding of the wording of an earlier post. Sorry.

So yes, we are free to question the claims people make regarding the existence of God, but not the belief (for or against) itself. Such claims should, of couse, be open to discussion and analysis. How we approach these claims is, however, dictated by the individual.

Questioning the belief itself, for which the existence of God provides the foundation, is, in my opinion, ultimately unanswerable and therefore redundant.

On a side note: I think people are quick to label themselves as Theist/Agnostic/Atheist without first exploring their reasons for doing so.

Some Theists might actually find themselves closer to the Agnostic Theists (who claim that the existence of God is unknown, but believe that he exists).

Or some Atheists might be closer to Agnostic Atheists (Again, the existence of God is unknown, but they believe his doesn't exist).

Nikolas: I think, when faced with overwhelming helplessness, even the most stauch atheist/agnostic may betray his/her's core beliefs. The reasons for doing so would say more about that persons frustration with their inability to control/affect the situation, rather than their opinions on the existence of God. And understandably so.

[space boy]

Nikolas: Not exactly the same situation but I experienced something similar(I'll leave out the details). No, it did not make me ask someone for help. Rather I asked myself the question why this someone would allow something like that in the first place. For some people this might be a situation where they "turn to god" in desperation. For me it reinforces the disbelief in an all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful god. And whenever someone says to me that god loves everyone in the world I think of that situation and it fills me with anger. People who say that, are mocking everyone who has ever suffered for no reason or people who had to watch their loved ones suffer for no reason. This is one of the many reasons I am against the notion of belief without evidence.

[MrColossal]

"pretty much fine with the 10 commandments" except the punishments for breaking a commandment, right? Not many people talk about those anymore.

as per your second question:

It doesn't really apply to religion or having a belief. If I drop a bowl of pudding and then a cup of milk and then stub my toe and I say out loud "Alright! Enough!" I'm not talking to anyone the same way I'd say out loud or in my head "Please just be ok, please just wake up, please I'll do anything just open your eyes and look at me, please please please... Just make him better..."

The more important part of the question for me is when the child does wake up. If the child wakes up and I say "Thank you Jesus." then I have a problem. Unless the team of doctors working around the clock to wake my child up and keep him from dying is collectively named Team Jesus, I've just taken all that is good in human kind and attributed it to a maybe-historical dude who's been dead for 2000 years.

Being in need and asking the air for help is a thing everyone does, I feel. Expecting a reply or for the laws of nature to be suspended because you asked, is what religious people do.

LimpingFish: Hooray, we solved the Case of the Religious Debate! I'll notify Scotland Yard!

And yes, I am having a hard time adjust back to being at work after the Mittens week... Hence all the posts!

[LimpingFish]

God, I do so love these debates! \o/

...

Uh-oh.

[Khris]

A hypothetical scenario:
Pick an earth-like planet, build cities, populate them with young, friendly agnostics who won't teach their children about any god. Provide them with all scientific knowledge currently available.
Is this civilization ever going to build churches? Will it ever have a religion of any kind, or even a pope?
I don't think so.

I believe we're still experiencing evolution. In the Middle Ages, almost every western European person was catholic. Today, it's more like 50/50? Not sure. But visit any church on a Sunday morning, and the only people in there are like 60 or older.

I'm glad I live in a big city in a very tolerant country as far as being religious or not is concerned. I can see myself getting very angry should I ever meet someone who pities me for being agnostic. All of my friends and pretty much all the people I encounter in daily life don't ever express their religious beliefs (if they had those, which I doubt), let alone try to convert somebody. Here it's more like the other way 'round: believers are often afraid to "come out of the closet".
I can remember one person, though. She was living next door and used to come over to visit my Mum, trying to get her to go to church, to get back "on the right path". I also remember I used to pity her because she was alone, frightened and not completely mentally stable.
There's no Sunday school in Germany, and you can choose to attend ethics classes instead of RE as soon as you are out of elementary school.

I'm incredibly glad that neither my surroundings nor my family are remotely religious. It allowed me to enjoy my childhood and youth without the mental oppression of being afraid of somebody watching my every move, condemning me if I made the slightest mistake.

Christians don't have to prove god exists, they have to proof their god exists.

[Stupot]

To me God simply doesn't exist and it frustrates me that so many otherwise intelligent people can possibly believe that he does.

Belief in God makes one unintelligent?

Then it wasn't long before it became obvious that god doesn't exist.  And it is fucking obvious which is why I get so angry.

Proof?


People like you are the reason why atheists get bad names. You have hatred towards those of differing believes. You skip being rationale and jump straight to name calling. You dont believe in the existence of God because you choose not too just like I believe in the existence of God because I choose too. There is not science to support either of our views, however you turn into an angry dog at the sound of the word God. The reason that most believers mock you is not because you are an atheist, it is because of your attitude. You have a false sense of superiority. "I dont believe in God, I am smarter than you." when in fact you are making claims without scientific backing just as I am. There is no mental superiority in being an atheist. Drop it.

No moox, a lot of believers in God are highly intelligent.  They just have this one small flaw in their logic.  I don't claim to be smarter than religious people.  Just eternally more enlightened.

If I'm slightly bitter about religion it's only because I didn't take to kindly to some guy telling me I should love a room full of strangers more than my own mother and sisters.  This is exactly the kind of person I mean.  I'm sure he was a very intelligent person otherwise.  But this tiny hole in his logic called Christianity had warped his common sense.

The way I say it is that (in my humble opinion, my very logical, humble opinion) to my mind I cannot possibly conceive the idea of God, therefore I don't like to say "I don't believe in God" because it suggests a degree of doubt.  So instead I say "There is no God"... It might sound arrogant but it's the only way I can express my atheism (which is what this thread is about).

You are a highly confrontational chap Moox... I hope you're not sill like this when we're married.

[Darth Mandarb]

Stupot - you do of course realize that the religious people could make the exact same argument about athiests right?  That you have a logic hole in your brain if you think there is no God?

Are you saying that you truely believe there is no power greater than the human being?  What about the weather?  What about the sun?  What about the "power" that drives the universe?

I don't have a problem at all with your beliefs, it's just that when you state them like they're the end-all be-all explanation it comes across as confrontational.

Religious people can't prove God exists.

You can't prove God doesn't exist.

Stalemate.

[Stupot]

Absolutley.
Stalemate.
But what I'm trying to say is that my mind is so made up that God doesn't exist.  To me there is no doubt whatsoever.  I know I can't prove it so that technically means here is doubt, but the reason I state is as a fact is because to me it is fact.

But I think it's more logical to think there is nothing there than it is to think there is a big invisible man (perhaps with a white beard) swirling around answering prayers and keeping an eye on us

God simply doesn't exist.  If other people want to believe he does, then that's up to them but they should go telling a ten-year-old kid not to love his own family.

Where did I say humans were the greatest power?  I don't know what you mean about the sun and the weather.  These are indeed very powerful forces, but they're not gods.  They are occurrences of nature, as are we all and we have science to thank for that.

[voh]

Are you saying that you truely believe there is no power greater than the human being?  What about the weather?  What about the sun?  What about the "power" that drives the universe?

That power is not sentient, while a God in whatever form is considered sentient.

A lot of Christians are of the conviction that atheists are actually religious themselves, and their religion (and doctrine) is the theory of evolution. Wouldn't that make us Darwinists or evolutionists rather than atheist? The definition of atheist is the lack of a religion.

One thing which keeps pissing me off is Christians going "How can somebody believe in nothing?", because not believing in God is equated to not believing in anything.

I'm an atheist, and I thereby deny the existance of a God, in whatever form you can think of. I believe in so many things I can go on listing and fill as many pages as the old testament has, but I'll just mention one, which is the most important on my list anyway.

I believe in myself.

And to most of my friends it seems to be similar. I know 3 Christians. That's it. Rest of my friends are atheist of the lack of God kind. Yet we act with respect to one anothers respective beliefs. They believe in a God, I believe in the lack of one. It doesn't matter to me that they believe in God, since it doesn't affect me. They don't care that I don't, since it doesn't affect them. We're great friends and the mutual respect (and frequent discussions, because we all love discussions) keeps it nice and friendly.

There need not be any conflict between followers of God, Allah or JHVH, or between any of them and those who do not believe in them.

The key to a good and easy world is respect. Problem with humans is that everything that's different from their own group(s) is scary and seen as a danger to the 'purity'/safety of them.

As an atheist I'm of the opinion that everybody has to choose for themselves what they believe in and what to follow. If you choose to believe in God, do so. If it makes you happier, then obviously it was the right religion for you. If you choose Allah, and you're better off, same thing. JHVH? Same thing.

No god? Same effin' thing.

Religions, to me, are like shoes (or similar products). Some like Nike, some prefer Adidas. Some swear by Puma, and others prefer italian leather loafers. In the end it doesn't matter what others think, it's what makes you feel comfortable enough to feel strong and confident. That is what decides whether or not you've made a mistake or not.

I have spoken

[Pelican]

Disregarding the fact that I dislike labels, I would consider myself to be agnostic. I accept that its not possible to know at the moment whether or not a supreme deity of some sort exists, and generally don't think much more about it. From experiences in my life, I don't think God exists (the Christian God that is), but I don't adamantly *believe* he doesn't. I don't have a problem with people believing in a deity, or following a certain religion, I have problems with what they do in the name of it.

If you want to believe in a god, that's fine and dandy, just don't tell me I'm an evil sinner, who's going to burn in hell because I don't. If your faith gives you comfort and guidance in your life, that's wonderful, just don't tell me my way of life is wrong. I respect that some people feel the need to believe in a god, and follow a religion, and just because I don't share their faith, I don't feel the need to yell at them they're wrong, because who knows, they could be right. I would like to have the same respect returned (and I usually don't - so much for do unto others...). I'm sad to say I've lost a number of friends from this. I don't like to be judged by the standards of a faith I don't believe in, especially not by people who are meant to be my friends. Nor do I take kindly to attempts to convert me, when its clear I'm not interested. Nothing makes me angrier than the 'oh no, my friend will go to hell if I don't save them' attitude.

So generally I don't express my beliefs much. I tend to nip religious conversations in the bud before they get started, because I get terribly frustrated trying to have a sensible debate with people who simply follow their faith blindly without ever having considered why they should. How on earth are you meant to convince me that your faith is right, if you've never even thought about why *you* follow it, never mind why anyone else should? I'm not saying all people with faith are like this, I know they aren't, but I've met far too many that are. There was a time that I did believe in that 'big beard in the sky' but it still never stopped me from wondering why, and asking questions, and challenging it. If you can challenge your beliefs every day and still believe, then kudos to you.

Sorry, rambling a bit. In short, if religion makes someone's life easier, that's nice, but it doesn't work for me, I need to find my own path. And I'd be more inclined to express my beliefs, if they were treated with respect rather than ridicule, or worse, pity.

Religions, to me, are like shoes (or similar products). Some like Nike, some prefer Adidas. Some swear by Puma, and others prefer italian leather loafers. In the end it doesn't matter what others think, it's what makes you feel comfortable enough to feel strong and confident. That is what decides whether or not you've made a mistake or not.

I have spoken

Nice analogy voh.

[Meowster]

Stupot - you do of course realize that the religious people could make the exact same argument about athiests right?  That you have a logic hole in your brain if you think there is no God?

Are you saying that you truely believe there is no power greater than the human being?  What about the weather?  What about the sun?  What about the "power" that drives the universe?

I don't have a problem at all with your beliefs, it's just that when you state them like they're the end-all be-all explanation it comes across as confrontational.

Religious people can't prove God exists.

You can't prove God doesn't exist.

Stalemate.

But we can certainly prove that the god of the christian bible does not exist.

[space boy]

Pelican, I agree with pretty much everything you said but about this part

Disregarding the fact that I dislike labels, I would consider myself to be agnostic. I accept that its not possible to know at the moment whether or not a supreme deity of some sort exists, and generally don't think much more about it. From experiences in my life, I don't think God exists (the Christian God that is), but I don't adamantly *believe* he doesn't.

Now I don't want to tell you what you should call yourself but wouldn't such an opinion make you a weak atheist?  As far as I'm concerned an agnostic thinks god is unknowable and they refuse to make up their mind, while a weak atheist(or an agnostic atheist if you will) says what you said("I'm not sure, but from what I've experienced so far I don't think god exists"). I've seen many people who hold such an opinion but they insist on being called agnostic. I don't know, is this a fear of being misunderstood when calling yourself atheist(which frankly happens very often)? Is it because "agnostic" is more "socially acceptable" than "atheist"?

[evenwolf]

----edit.  Challenge removed--

[Pelican]

Now I don't want to tell you what you should call yourself but wouldn't such an opinion make you a weak atheist?  As far as I'm concerned an agnostic thinks god is unknowable and they refuse to make up their mind, while a weak atheist(or an agnostic atheist if you will) says what you said("I'm not sure, but from what I've experienced so far I don't think god exists"). I've seen many people who hold such an opinion but they insist on being called agnostic. I don't know, is this a fear of being misunderstood when calling yourself atheist(which frankly happens very often)? Is it because "agnostic" is more "socially acceptable" than "atheist"?

Not at all, I don't have a problem with being considered atheist or agnostic or a weirdo . I don't like labels simply because they tend to box people together without acknowledging their uniqueness.

Agnostic:
A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

Atheist:
One who believes that there is no deity

Quite simply, I accept that its impossible to know if there is a supreme deity, and I'm not inclined to believe either way. I accept that it is entirely possible that there is a god, whether I believe so or not. At the moment, from my experiences in life I *think* that there isn't, but should I have experiences to the contrary, I may change that view. Calling myself an atheist would suggest I adamantly believe there is no god, and that is not the case. I am always open to changing my views should I receive new evidence or experiences that require me to.

Also, I am speaking specifically about Christianity as this is the religion I was brought up with. I haven't considered the beliefs of other faiths, as I don't know enough about them to form an opinion.

But anyway, feel free to call me a weak atheist agnostic if you like. (see, this is why I don't like labels, its too hard to make one word explain complex personal beliefs).

[Darth Mandarb]

But we can certainly prove that the god of the christian bible does not exist.

How?

[Moox]

But we can certainly prove that the god of the christian bible does not exist.

How?

Exactly what I want to know...