Socialism

[Barcik]

Try this on Barcik: Growing up in the Flint Michigan there was only one way to succedde. Work in the factory. I went to a very rough high school and saw every one of my freinds beaten up because of the color of their skin. I am a little guy and was harrased but, somehow managed to avoid getting hurt too bad. I dropped out of high school and later got my GED (a dumb man's diploma in America). I was told that a GED is useless. I didn't know what to do. I wanted to go to college but my parents wouldn't help me. I was stuck. Factories were closing so that option was running dry. I talked to an army recruiter for a while until I realized I just couldn't do that. So, I got a job at McDonald's. I worked my ass off, and got NOTHING for it. Finally, while at a bar one night I met a guy that offered for me to travel to Columbus, Ohio with him. He was going to medical school. I went along, having known the guy for about 3 weeks. I ended up in a new city without family or friends. The guy I moved to Columbus with got his girlfriend pregnant and ended up moving back to Flint (by the way he was in medical school and dropped out to work in a pizza shop). I stayed. Only through the generosity of a few people did I manage to pull it together. I spent some time homeless, got another job at McDonald's and lived in someones basement. Finally, I began to learn about student loans. People told me I could go to school for free! No advisors in school ever said anything about it, my parents never said anything about it, why hadn't anyone told me about school loans!? So, now, my life has slowly come back together over the past 7 or 8 years. I am in school and working at a cafe as a cook. I have tried many different ways to make enough money to buy a house, car and all that (truck driving being one big mistake). But, here I am, 29 years old and in college with a bunch of 18 year olds. It sucks. If something happens, like my girlfriend getting pregnant, I will have to leave school and work some shit job. I DO NOT have the opportunities that some people have. I did not grow up in a $300,000 dollar house. I have worked hard and struggled all of my life. I'm not the smartest guy in the world. But, guess what Barcik, I still deserve to have a roof over my head, to have medical insurance, and live a decent life.

In my naive little world, everybody has a chance. Personally, I believe there isn't one person in the world who just can't succeed (and by that, I mean the whole jackpot). However, without a doubt, for some people the conditions are more difficult. Your road to potential success is harder than mine. And yet, both you and I can be the next Bill Gates.
And, as I said, everybody deserves the basic needs of life.

[Matt Brown]

Junc, you said earlier that almost all choices should be made by popular vote, and just because a person is dumb doesnt mean they shouldnt vote. I hope I am correct in my understanding of this.
Have you ever been to a session of the Ohio Senate? The statehouse isnt too far from the OSU main campus if I remember. I was there last week shadowing sen.Goodwin, to see if I wanted to be a politician when I grow up. I sat in on one of those sessions.
Im a student of goverement. I read more then 1 paper a day, and read as much as I can about everything. i think, even tho Im only 17, I have a better understanding about Ohio's goverment the joe junchbox.
I didnt have a freakin clue what most of those guys are talking about. Quick, Junc, what should we do about bill 214 tax bill? Most of these bills the public never even hears about. its just too complicated.
Most people can barely become informed enough to make a good choice for the presidental election, and they get an entire year head start. It asks too much of everybody to learn the details of every single little bill so they can vote on it. it would almost require every citizen to have at least a B.D. in policital science. it just isnt practical.

every citizen should vote. but, it isnt a good idea to have everybody vote on everything. the system we have going on here seems to work ok.

I hope I havent read your posts wrong.

[juncmodule]

Panda, don't you think there is something fundamentally flawed with your point?

I agree with you completely, sort of.

We don't know enough to make those decisions on bill "214". But THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Some bill is being passed that will affect our lives yet we know nothing about it. Why? Because the news is filled with "somebody died", "something burned", and "look over there stupid person!" instead of "the Senate passed law 214 today, law 214 was about...blah, blah, blah."

There are many of us that are not only intelligent, but fairly well informed, that don't know what's going on in our own backyard. It is buried in legal speak. I'm willing to bet if you put bill 214 in front of me I STILL wouldn't be able to understand it.

You shouldn't need a degree in anything to understand a simple law.

That is why I feel that the government is bloated. We are passing laws everyday. Laws about what!? Do you get an update? No, because you aren't supposed to know about these laws, because you are supposed to be dumb. Which is what the government wants you to be. At least "dumb" of what is going on at your local Senate.

Americans really need to smarten up. It's all a matter of "programming". If we are fed knowledge we gain knowledge. For some it may take longer than others. I guess my point is that dumb people are only dumb because they are uneducated. If you educate them properly...well, you get the point.

later,
-junc

[Pumaman]

This is what's called Representative Democracy, and it works well because most of the people really don't care about 99% of the laws and decisions that are made by government. You vote for the candidate that most agrees with your ideals, and rely on them to represent your opinions.

I do like junc's idea of allowing everyone to vote on everything, if they want to. I should have the right on every bill that goes through parliament, to decide to withdraw my vote from my MP, and cast it myself.
Of course, the costs of administering a public vote like this would be enourmous, but with the emergence of the internet it could well soon be possible to allow this.

[juncmodule]

I should have the right on every bill that goes through parliament, to decide to withdraw my vote from my MP, and cast it myself.

I REALLY like that idea!

Yeah, a lot of my ideas rely heavily on technology. I think that technology really paves the way for a lot of Socialist programs that have failed in the past.

I would also like to note to everyone: This thread has really influenced my opinions on Socialism. I just want to thank everyone for responding and helping. I still don't know where my political loyalty stands, but I do know that I'm not 100% Socialist. Which perhaps leaves me more confused than when I started the thread

later,
-junc

[Matt Brown]

ok junc, now we're getting somewhere.
I like what you are saying, and I agree with most of it.  A lot of the laws passed everyday really arent important at all, or wont go into effect. senators use these to pad their bill count, so it looks like they have done more then they have. However, a lot of politics IS complicated, and not everything can be simplified for a region as large and diverse as Ohio.
Your idea would work great on a local level, or maybe even a small state. but there really is too much activity going on in our state, or the country, to do it.

You are right. people should know. It makes me very upset when our citizens cant be bothered to turn off NASCAR for a second, and pick up a newspaper.

[juncmodule]

but there really is too much activity going on in our state, or the country, to do it.

That's why Chris's suggestion is so beautiful. Government could run just as it does, but each citizen could have the right to interact and vote on whatever laws they choose.

I think the complexity thing is just to keep your average Joe out of politics. It's really not that complicated, or at least it doesn't need to be. The complication is the reason there are so many problems with the government in the first place. Of course by opening it up to the public in such a way politicians could attempt to make it even more complex, so there would have to be legislation to force any bills passed to remain fairly simple.

Complexity in bills and spenditure is how you end up with $50 toilet seats in the pentagon, golf courses, and whatever built into bills. We have been brainwashed into thinking that it is such a hard job and that there is so much going on.

later,
-junc