how far is too far...

[Ali]

Oh, and not to derail the thread further, but definitely, definitely, definitely:

M

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I don't really think you can cross any lines thematically that haven't been crossed already.  I've seen stuff like slaughtered vomit dolls, underground stuff, so-called snuff, it's all there and the intention isn't really to teach you anything about the human condition, it's just there to gross you out or be appalling.

I think the important thing to take away from this discussion is that a good narrative is meant to pass on a message, whether it's a moral one, an ethical one, a cautionary tale or whatever.  If you're going to be gruesome, do it with the intention of teaching the viewer/player something or imparting a message you think is important.

Gore and gross/violent or sexual acts by themselves confer nothing on their own.  Black and white horror and noir movies of the 30's and 40's got is 100% right when they often kept the violence hinted at or off screen rather than throwing it in your lap, because what most people fear is the unknown and will sit there long after a movie is over wondering just what happened offscreen and will often imagine things much worse than you could come up with.

[EchosofNezhyt]

Good post ProgZ.

Informative and good call about the old school movies like that.

[Ali]

I think the important thing to take away from this discussion is that a good narrative is meant to pass on a message, whether it's a moral one, an ethical one, a cautionary tale or whatever.

Interestingly, some of the more haunting of the films I suggested don't really pass on a message. M is a good example. It ends with a moral of sorts, but the morality of the film is so intangible that it isn't really satisfactory. You can interpret it as an attack on Nazism, but it could just as easily be a justification of the persecution of Jews. I think that moral uncertainty is one of the things which make the film so unsettling.

[Eric]

the intention isn't really to teach you anything about the human condition

I highlight this part of what ProgZmax said, because I think it's a better description of what he's getting at than "message," which might be too easily equated with "moral." I think "M" is a good example, a fine piece of cinematic art (The Lang version, at least. I'm not as big a fan of the Losey remake.). It's not moralistic in tone, but it reveals loads upon loads of human character. Just the "court" scene at the end is a masterful look at the nature of "evil," our interpretation of justice, our ability to compartmentalize our sins, etc. etc.

It's interesting too -- one of the things that Lorre calls out to the lynch mob is that they've all committed their crimes with intent, whereas he can't control himself. To me, that's where the question of "too far" is answered: boundaries must be pushed and broken with intent, purpose, deliberation. This doesn't mean simply to be aware of doing it, but to have reason for doing it.

Gore for gore's sake alone is often juvenile (though I do think there are some societal functions that it performs). But the violence in something like Michael Haneke's "Funny Games" has a purpose, and whether or not you agree with the purpose, or approve of the execution, it's worth interrogating that purpose. I also think we should be able to discard the point-of-view of the author, ala Barthes, and consider the text on its own terms. Thus both the pushed boundary and the reason for pushing it should be found within the text itself; i.e. I shouldn't have to go read an interview to find out what it all means.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Oh man. Incidentally I watched Human Centipede 2 today and it was insanely terrible. Very graphic. The short fat protagonist guy with the beady eyes is very creepy indeed.
I was so pissed that not one of the people tied down with duct taped didn't move throughout the day while he was at work. It was only their wrist and ankles. They could've wiggled their way to someone next to them to even, and if only just to attempt, to help remove the tape off the other. Blah. I got upset.

[EchosofNezhyt]

Told ya it was gross.

I feel crazy though cause I watched it with my buddy and we laughed at some of the stuff.

[amateurhour]

HC:2 was less about a creepy story and more about shock value, hence the MASSIVE plotholes that the first one didn't have. The first one was actually interesting and pretty entertaining. The sequel was Tom Six's idea of telling the world "you watched one of my movies, so this is the meta effect it has on you and you're terrible for watching the second, or critiquing it, or really even talking about it...."

He's got a third one planned for this year, and his movies have been banned in like 20 countries now. I hated HC:2, but honestly I'd love to see him make one so ridiculous and nonsensical, but grotesquely violent, that it gets banned in the US, which is all but impossible compared to other countries.   

[mkennedy]

That's part of the problem with "South Park" in my opinion. It's like the writers are just trying to be provocative rather then actually being funny.

[amateurhour]

That's part of the problem with "South Park" in my opinion. It's like the writers are just trying to be provocative rather then actually being funny.

The problem with South Park (as it is now) is that it's still 100% controlled and run by Matt and Trey, which is fine, that's awesome, but they're both REALLY, REALLY busy with other projects, and they shoot an episode in a little less than a week, but only do 14-20 eps a year, so it's rushed.

When they took their time back 7 years ago, it was priceless.

[PvtRichardCranium]

 I don't think either violence or sex goes too far, (as long as it's not the kind of shit in A Serbian Film) because it's all real-life stuff. There have been cases where people have been killed with chainsaws and their gooey parts go all over the place, people willingly and non willingly have sex with each other all the time. This stuff just happens. People get killed in horrendously violent ways and certain people enjoy having jumper cables attached to their nipples, all outside of video games and movies. Sometimes it's worse in real life. I still have yet to see a film or play a video game where someone is killed in the matter that Vlad The Impaler punished his victims. He took a large square wooden pull and used people's body weight to make them slide down it as it penetrated their sphincter to the point of it literally going out of their mouths, and all this while they were still alive.
Basically, movies and video games don't desensitize us to violence in the real world. For me, violence in the real world desensitized me to violence in video games.

[Ali]

I still have yet to see a film or play a video game where someone is killed in the matter that Vlad The Impaler punished his victims...
Basically, movies and video games don't desensitize us to violence in the real world. For me, violence in the real world desensitized me to violence in video games.

Which part of 15th Century Romania are you from?

[PvtRichardCranium]

Which part of 15th Century Romania are you from?

I used to live in pretty harsh gang territory, so I've seen quite a bit of violence. That, and my mom watches crime shows all the time.

[EchosofNezhyt]

Ole Vladdi' boy did some crazy stuff.

I can't imagine what it would have been like to see that in stuff in person.

[kconan]

Doom had some shocking moments for its day.

[EchosofNezhyt]

I always loved there sprites.

[Technocrat]

I finished watching "The Skin I Live In" the other day - the aftermath of the film left me with a creeped-out feeling, but they kept the grotesque things offscreen.

[Ali]

The Skin I Live In was excellent! I'd definitely add that to my list of grotesque but not gratuitous films.