New Bible Translation Promotes Fornication

Moox · Thu 01/07/2004 03:39:09

I converted to deism from christianity. Deists believe that god created everything but that he made it in such a way that its self regulating. He created us but doesnt interfere so theres no reason to pray etc...

MrColossal · Thu 01/07/2004 03:48:32

Quote from: LostTraveler on Thu 01/07/2004 03:39:09
He created the US but doent interfere so theres no reason to pray etc...

DAMN RIGHT HE CREATED THE US!!!

WOOOO!!

ahem, anyway

Moox · Thu 01/07/2004 03:50:07

oops, I ment us

Redwall · Thu 01/07/2004 04:16:23

All of you, join me in agnosticism! I press my beliefs down your throat!

Robert Eric · Thu 01/07/2004 04:16:27

Yes, I agree that he created us. Go us.

PaulSC · Thu 01/07/2004 12:35:00

Quote from: MrColossal on Thu 01/07/2004 02:27:03
But what solid reason do you have that there is no god?

Can we agree that modern science knows less than 1 percent of the known universe? The rest is inferred through looking at our part of the universe and saying "The rest of the universe must act this way also." [in an extremely simplified way]

Can you tell me without a shadow of a doubt that 500 million lightyears away there isn't a popsicle stand floating in space? And if so, how do you know this for sure?

e-dog

Maybe there’s a god, and maybe there’s a popsicle stand floating in space. But maybes are maybes - there’s no solid evidence to support either of those claims, so what reason is there for actively believing them?

The idea of that popsicle stand sounds crazy and unlikely to me, so I'm not gonna believe in it until someone actually finds it. In that case, though, whether it exists or not makes no difference to my life either way. But in the case of gods I’ve got a thousand different religions telling me I’ll be punished if I don’t believe - maybe I'll even have to suffer unimaginable pain for an infinite amount of time if I don’t. If people are going to start making claims like *that*, which turn the issue of whether or not I believe into a MAJOR issue, I think it’s fair to ask for a little solid proof before being forced to make a lifestyle decision that would change the course of my life. But they still can’t give any, so what else I’m I gonna do but dismiss them as empty threats and go back to happily not caring either way?

If you try to forget about your upbringing and build your understanding of the world from the ground up, *without* presupposing the existence of a god, there’s no particular reason to believe any one supernatural claim over any other, as far as I can tell. There’s just as much reason to assume that some long dead tribe on easter island stumbled on the one correct belief system as there is of any modern religious person (and frankly there’s no reason to assume either is correct).

In summary: I don’t believe anything without a decent reason. No one’s ever given me a decent reason to believe in a god or religion, so I don’t! Simple as that. And I'm not trying to force my opinions on anyone, I'm just trying to show why I think my way of looking at the universe is a pretty sensible one.

YOke · Thu 01/07/2004 12:51:14

Nobody has ever given me a decent reason this world is real and not just the figment of my imagination. Maybe I'm God, and you are all my dream. Who would be able to tell the difference?

To all the God-bashers out there. There is NO SUCH THING as FACT! It is all beliefs.
I believe I exist, but I can't prove it. That all hinges on other beliefs, such as the belief that people really exist. What it all comes down to is the need to put what we fondly call "reality" into a system. Some people find this through religion, some through science.
There is no difference between the two, it's still beliefs.

Personally I keep my eyes, ears and mind open, trying to make sense of it in my own way.

SSH · Thu 01/07/2004 13:06:13

Quote from: YOke on Thu 01/07/2004 12:51:14
To all the God-bashers out there. There is NO SUCH THING as FACT! It is all beliefs.

Is that a fact?

YOke · Thu 01/07/2004 13:14:06

Quote from: SSH on Thu 01/07/2004 13:06:13
Quote from: YOke on Thu 01/07/2004 12:51:14
To all the God-bashers out there. There is NO SUCH THING as FACT! It is all beliefs.
Is that a fact?

No. Proves my point quite nicely, doesn't it?

God · Thu 01/07/2004 13:19:09

Quote from: YOke on Thu 01/07/2004 12:51:14
Nobody has ever given me a decent reason this world is real and not just the figment of my imagination. Maybe I'm God, and you are all my dream. Who would be able to tell the difference?

To all the God-bashers out there. There is NO SUCH THING as FACT! It is all beliefs.
I believe I exist, but I can't prove it. That all hinges on other beliefs, such as the belief that people really exist. What it all comes down to is the need to put what we fondly call "reality" into a system. Some people find this through religion, some through science.
There is no difference between the two, it's still beliefs.

Personally I keep my eyes, ears and mind open, trying to make sense of it in my own way.

What if I believe you are wrong?

What if i believe you are wrong?

What if i believe you are wrong?

SSH · Thu 01/07/2004 13:24:26

Quote from: YOke on Thu 01/07/2004 13:14:06
Quote from: SSH on Thu 01/07/2004 13:06:13
Quote from: YOke on Thu 01/07/2004 12:51:14
To all the God-bashers out there. There is NO SUCH THING as FACT! It is all beliefs.
Is that a fact?

No. Proves my point quite nicely, doesn't it?

I don't BELIEVE so.

Anyway, does this mean that we should set all the convicted people free since their convictions are just based on someone's beleifs, rather than facts?
Of course not. In practical terms, this philosophy is useless. When my daughter was just born, I don't think that she created the belief that her mother existed just to organsie reality into a system. Or maybe that expression on her face wasn't wind but rather existential angst?

Babar · Thu 01/07/2004 13:47:19

there is no point arguing whether what we sense and observe is fact or belief. It could be taken either way as there is no proof of either. For the sake of sanity and balanced living, it is easier to believe that it is fact. Therefore the actual answer is inconsequential.
Belief in God could also be argued either way. There is no proof either way. Only BELIEF. One of the greatest stupidities of humanity is that it thinks it knows everything. Who is to say there is not a popsicle floating about somewhere in space? Or that there is or is no God? Or that what we observe and sense is fact or illusion?

PaulSC · Thu 01/07/2004 13:52:05

Quote from: YOke on Thu 01/07/2004 12:51:14
Nobody has ever given me a decent reason this world is real and not just the figment of my imagination. Maybe I'm God, and you are all my dream. Who would be able to tell the difference?

To all the God-bashers out there. There is NO SUCH THING as FACT! It is all beliefs.
I believe I exist, but I can't prove it. That all hinges on other beliefs, such as the belief that people really exist. What it all comes down to is the need to put what we fondly call "reality" into a system. Some people find this through religion, some through science.
There is no difference between the two, it's still beliefs.

Personally I keep my eyes, ears and mind open, trying to make sense of it in my own way.

^^^ This seems fairly sound thinking, but stuff like the old "what if reality is a dream?" thing is yet another theory where all I can say is "There's no reason to assume this is true, and it probably won't affect my life as I experience it either way, so why worry about it?".

Scientific theories are observable and testable, and have practical value for us here on earth - for me, it generally makes sense to believe them, unless there's reason to think otherwise. In contrast, the issue of whether or not there is a god is apparently unobservable and untestable, and in the end has no practical relevance for my life here on earth that I can see.

To be honest, holding a bunch of arbitrary beliefs based on absolutely nothing does seem a little odd to me. But whatever floats your bike, I guess.

SSH: "Or maybe that expression on her face wasn't wind but rather existential angst?"

Ha! That was a good'n.

YOke · Thu 01/07/2004 14:15:45

Quote from: PaulSC on Thu 01/07/2004 13:52:05
To be honest, holding a bunch of arbitrary beliefs based on absolutely nothing does seem a little odd to me. But whatever floats your bike, I guess.

I agree. That said; without the arbitrary beliefs we have nothing to check new information with. We are already laying a puzzle blindfolded. Without arbitrary beliefs we would be laying a puzzle blindfolded without knowing what a puzzle is or why we're trying to do it.

Quote from: Babloyi on Thu 01/07/2004 13:47:19
there is no point arguing whether what we sense and observe is fact or belief. It could be taken either way as there is no proof of either. For the sake of sanity and balanced living, it is easier to believe that it is fact. Therefore the actual answer is inconsequential.
Belief in God could also be argued either way. There is no proof either way. Only BELIEF. One of the greatest stupidities of humanity is that it thinks it knows everything. Who is to say there is not a popsicle floating about somewhere in space? Or that there is or is no God? Or that what we observe and sense is fact or illusion?

Exactly. To quote Quentin Tarantino in Four Rooms:
"The less declarative statements a man makes, the less apt is he to look foolish in retrospect."
I don't KNOW if there is a God or not, but I CHOOSE to like my life trying to live up to my own values that again are based on what I BELIEVE is important.

This is a circular argument, and the only conclusion I have been able to draw from it during all my years of pondering this and related questions are: "Being alive is funny!"

Haddas · Thu 01/07/2004 14:17:09

Quote from: MrColossal on Thu 01/07/2004 02:27:03
Can we agree that modern science knows less than 1 percent of the known universe?

I'd say 0,00000000000000000000000000000000000001%... even less. Infinity is quite big. There are probably hundreds of billions other religions out there.

This discussion reminds me much about Hitchikers guide to the galaxy, a book which, even though being only the imagination of the arthur, still makes you think about things.

42...

I find some of these modernizations silly. "Dipping"? I also think that names should never be translated. Well, I guess the message is the same...

Migs · Thu 01/07/2004 16:05:55

Quote from: PaulSC on Thu 01/07/2004 00:35:56The thing is, that last bit doesn't really change anything. What it all boils down to is that atheists generally don't believe in god because no one, great thinker or not, has ever been able to give them a solid, objective reason why they *should* believe, or why it actually matters whether they do or don't in the first place.

When you looking at life from that perspective it's hard to understand how people can happily hold these extremely specific beliefs without any solid, objective reason at all, and frankly "these people are either deluded, or idiots. Or both" is quite an easy conclusion to jump to. I agree that a lot of atheists should probably be a bit more tactful and tolerant about the whole thing, though (including me).

Sorry, I know you don't want to start a discussion, but... I'm just an argumentitive jerk, I guess.

I'm not suggesting that atheists should believe in a Supreme Being just because some "smart guys" do.Ã,Â Religion is not a scientific endeavor, and I really don't think the two should be mixed.Ã,Â Some of the "Scientific Creation" and "Intelligent Design Theory" proponents are rather amusing to me.

Instead, I think religion is a very personal thing, one which people have to come to grips with themselves.Ã,Â One must ultimately have faith.Ã,Â But I vehemently disagree that religious people are necessarily irrational, as has been the common implication. Some of the philosophical arguments for the existence of God are outstandingly rational.Ã,Â Thomas Aquinas was one of the most profoundly rational thinkers who has ever lived.Ã,Â If Anselm's ontological argument isn't the purest form of rationality, I don't know what is.Ã,Â Even though many people, including myself, aren't really compelled by the argument, it's difficult to find the flawed logic in it, even after reading the thoughtful criticisms of Immanuel Kant et al.

edmundito · Thu 01/07/2004 16:58:20

Wouldn't it be nice if y'all would just shut the fuck up?

Also, stop talking about my uncle Jesus. He doesn't need to be idolized/bitched at by any of you.

I was serious about the first sentence/question, though.

Blackthorne · Thu 01/07/2004 17:03:01

Quote from: God on Thu 01/07/2004 13:19:09

What if I believe you are wrong?

What if i believe you are wrong?

What if i believe you are wrong?

Then you'd be a pretty lousy diety, considering you're supposed to be omniscient!

WOO HOO!

Bt

Redwall · Thu 01/07/2004 19:52:05

Quote from: Haddas on Thu 01/07/2004 14:17:09
This discussion reminds me much about Hitchikers guide to the galaxy, a book which, even though being only the imagination of the arthur, still makes you think about things.

Actually, I think the best reference is The Restaurant at the End of the Universe where the Man Who Rules The Universe doesn't think it exists.

"Fish come from far away, or some I'm told. Or so I imagine I'm told."

LGM · Thu 01/07/2004 19:56:28

Now that's a good reference.

10 points