Rape Jokes

[EchosofNezhyt]

I too was just about to ask what's a rape joke? A joke that's rape related? A joke's a joke, some are funny, some not. It seems as if there's a lot of internet peer pressure that comes with these and the dead babies: basically you have to find them funny or else you're posh or a whiney kid. The problem is, most of it isn't even good, I mean, funny. If a joke is funny, people will laugh.

For instance, there's a joke about the island shootings in Norway, around half of my friends found it funny, the other half didn't, and they have a right not to

I remember hearing about the shootings?

I'm curious though, What was the joke and did you find it funny?

[Tuomas]

It's simply, there's a tradiotional joke structure you need to know first, one that compares a Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian. For instance, a Finn, a Norwegian and a Swede had a competition, who could stay longest in sauna. The Norwegian came out in 10 minutes, the Swede in 15 minutes. When after 2 hours the Finn was still inside, they shouted: "You can come out now, you've already won!" The Finn answered: "I would have already, but my balls are stuck between the planks!".

Yes, I know, not really funny, but the kids like them. The one I'm talking about is something like: A Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian go to an island. The Norwegian shoots everybody.

Yes, I thought it was funny, but was afraid to laugh. The fact that it's politically incorrect makes it funny a bit. It also isn't like the original ones, where the story keeps you waiting for the high point until the end, but it's cut short after one quick sentence, to everyone's surprise. So the joke's pretty much the fact, that there is no joke. Also, you can pretty much imagine, that the Finn usually ends up being the cunning one, that wins.

[Igor Hardy]

I don't think rape jokes are evil or it's wrong to tell them, but they do have a tendency to go very wrong in many situations.

Also, someone with a penchant for telling sexist jokes, rape joke, and overly excited about them, will quickly end up seeming creepy to his peers.

Much depends on the behavior of the person telling the joke really.

[Ponch]

A Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian go to an island. The Norwegian shoots everybody.

I'll admit it. I laughed.

[Secret Fawful]

More people in this topic need to watch some Louis CK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU

[stu]

I stopped a girl from getting raped last night.. I stayed in.

[Anian]

I stopped a girl from getting raped last night.. I stayed in.

Parum-pum.

[Ryan Timothy B]

http://youtu.be/LLWlBgj0uOc

[Snarky]

Rape is not about wanting to have sex with someone who won't let you. It is an act of power. A rapist seeks to utterly dominate their victim and exert complete control over them through the use of sexual force. The mindset of a rapist is severely disturbed and could arguably be qualified as a mental disease.

This is an often-repeated claim, but I find it extremely dubious. People forcing someone to have sex with them is not, is never, because they want to have sex?

The sex drive is one of the most fundamental instincts in humans, as in all animals that practice sexual reproduction, and we know people will do all kinds of freaky things to achieve sexual gratification. But when it's with an unwilling partner, it's no longer a factor? It's not a credible theory on its face, and when you start looking at examples, you find things like date rapes and rapes of drugged and unconscious victims, or rapes within relationships. Even if the acts in these cases express dominance, the rapist is also clearly trying to get off. And if you read about rapist murderers or pedophiles, you'll very often find they were masturbating to S&M or kiddie porn beforehand, and that sexual arousal was a strong motive for them.

So you might say that these people are so twisted up that even sex isn't about sex for them. But let's not follow psychoanalysis too far off the bend. As Freud didn't say: sometimes an erect penis is just an erect penis. Besides, sex is always intertwined with social/status concerns and other psychological motives; that's why it's such a powerful ingredient in drama. So even if it's about feeling like a big strong man, that doesn't mean it's not equally about sex.

As for rape as a mental disease, unfortunately it's just too common for us to classify all rapists as mentally disturbed. I mean, unless you want to define all serious criminals that way. And also, the unpleasant truth is that under the "right" circumstances, given the opportunity a lot (I won't say "most", since I don't have any specific statistics) of guys commit rapes. You see this particularly in wars, where rape is quite endemic (e.g. towards the end of WWII, when German women were raped en masse by Soviet troops). You see it in societies with slavery. In many societies all over the world, bride-stealing (i.e. kidnapping) was a normal way to procure a wife, and if you consider the historical norm of arranged/forced and - in our terms - often underage marriages, you're forced to conclude that a very large proportion of sex throughout history has been non-consensual by modern standards.

We need to realize that human beings, by our nature, are prone to do some horrible things: to bully, commit abuses, enslave, rape, murder... These are not aberrations. Indeed, they have been quite routine throughout history (and given that they also occur frequently in the animal kingdom, presumably they have existed for as long as there have been living creatures they could be said to apply to).

None of this, of course, makes rape any less terrible or more excusable. But if we're to have a "serious, level-headed discussion", I think we need to get beyond platitudes.

[Trapezoid]

A friend of mine said this on twitter earlier today, I thought it was pretty apt:
"Edgy comedy used to be about making the establishment feel uneasy. Now it's about making victims want to die??? Good job at not being funny."

I think people should be allowed to make whatever jokes they want. The public should be allowed to react how they want and respond with criticism or shunning. How about that?

If you offend a victim, and they explain why your words have hurt them, what you do next is what's important. Do you hear their side, apologize and grow as a person? Or do you find it more important to defend yourself and to never have to consider your words? I think the second route is lazier and makes you look like a child. There's nothing I can (or would) do to stop you, but that's how you look.

[ddq]

Trapezoid: Rape jokes have this certain tendency to hurt victims rather than just offend them. There's a difference between insulting someone's sensibilities and making someone feel like you ran up and punched them in the soul. It's basically like hiding firecrackers under the bed of a soldier with PTSD.

Snarky: Even if the motivation is almost entirely sexual, the act still requires the rapist to ignore the victim's resistances and cries for them to stop. I know what you mean, but there's a difference between rape-rape and rapey-rape, even if there aren't different words for it. And now with the use of the phrase "rapey-rape" I guess we can kiss any chance of intelligent and mature debate goodbye.

[Trapezoid]

ddq: You're right, using the term "offended" is really beside the point and is arguing on the terms of the apologists, who try to characterize the victim as merely "taking offense" for attention.

I think that's a silly way of thinking of offense, in any case. Even if you're not personally hurt by something, you can still be validly offended by it. monkey_05_06 on page 1 talked about "supporting a culture where nothing is acceptable because you might step on someone's toes"... which is a load of nonsense. That culture doesn't exist, and doesn't pose any sort of threat. Most people act offended because they ARE offended. I think the types who are most vocally against a "PC" world are just afraid that they'll get called out for having awful opinions.

[monkey0506]

I still maintain that it does exist. I do have awful opinions, but I'll call myself out on that thank you very much.

[kconan]

  I'm for a PC world when it helps shut the racists up, and I'm against a PC world if it means we can no longer have frank discussions about race and/or cultures.

  When it comes to yucks, I agree that edgy comedy has gone downhill in recent years and really has become lazy.  I can count the number of comedians who can pull it off on one hand.

[Snake]

I remember it being funny as a kid to yell out, "RAPE!" or "PENIS!" on the school bus. I'm not too sure I can remember any rape jokes, let alone any that made me laugh.

[Dualnames]

I prefer jokes on pedophilia.

[WHAM]

The only jokes I would think can be thought of as truly inappropriate are those that are purposefully directed at a person.
To use the Norway island shooting as an example, I would think the joke to be inappropriate and perhaps mean-spirited if told in a room with a survivor, or a family member of a survivor of the incident present.

Then again, a place like the internet is too wide to take such things into consideration, especially with anonymity involved, and thus I believe the internet should be open for all content, viewer beware.

[Calin Leafshade]

Snarky opined that rape is not about power but about sex. This is almost certainly untrue.

The needs of a rapist are not about sex. Indeed, rapists show no more inclination towards sex than other males of a similar age.
The point is that a rapist cannot get their sexual release from consensual sex. It just doesn't do it for them.

Think about it. There are lots of ways to get sex. Most people can walk out the door and get consensual sex before the night is over if they wanted to. Even paying a prostitute is preferable to raping someone and possibly going to prison for it. There *must* be a drive that pushes a guy to rape over other sexual releases.

It's possible that non-premeditated rape might be attributable to a desire to want to have sex. For instance if a girl passes out and the guy carries on anyway but does anyone here really think that that would get them off if it was purely about sex?

Sorry but Snarky's argument does not hold water.

[ThreeOhFour]

You appear to have overlooked the possibility that rape is an extreme form of paraphilia.

Pigeonholing the motive for rape in such a way is being shortsighted. I've seen nobody link any studies, interviews, or even documented cases, and yet a valid point has been completely dismissed.

I am of the mind that motives vary depending on the individual. Generalizing such a thing - especially based on what appears to be pure speculation - isn't really promoting the level headed discussion that was called for initially. It's just not good science.

Edit: A quick search of Wikipedia brought forth the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frotteurism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Causes_and_motivation

[Calin Leafshade]

You appear to have overlooked the possibility that rape is an extreme form of paraphilia.

My comments in no way exclude the possibility of it being an extreme manifestation of paraphilia. Indeed a lot of paraphilias arise from the desire to exert power or other, non-sexual, sources.

Pigeonholing the motive for rape in such a way is being shortsighted.

"a desire for power" is a pretty broad pigeonhole. One might call it a rack of pigeon holes.

I am of the mind that motives vary depending on the individual. Generalizing such a thing - especially based on what appears to be pure speculation - isn't really promoting the level headed discussion that was called for initially. It's just not good science.

While it's true that motivations vary, that doesnt mean generalising a mental condition to be a defacto bad thing. It allows for further study and a method of categorisation.

Also my arguments were not 'speculation'. Rather they were a priori deductions.