Russia and Georgia.

[Nacho]

It' s difficult... maybe there is no a "correct answer".

Let' s talk about "A" country and "B" region.

If "B region" wants to sepparate, 99% of the times "A" region wouldn' t be happy. "A" region won' t allow "B" to sepparate if "B" uses just political paths. That can be unfair.
If "B" remains in "A", "A" would be happy, but "B" unhappy.
If "B" region wants to sepparate, "A" won' t allow per se. If "B" uses weapons, "B" goofes, even if "B" cause is fair. "B" becomes unfair... but some other people consider that what "B" does is a just cause.
If "A" uses weapons to keep "B" with them, even if "A" cause is fair, "A" goofes. But again, some other people might consider "A" is acting propperly.
If "B" region has a majority of "B" populators, there might still be "A" populators that wouldn't be happy if "B" becomes independent.
Which cause is fair if, in "B" country they was an original "A" population that has changed to a "B" majority?

As you can see, a lot of questions to reply, and they are not easy... I just hope it ends ASAP.

I would also like all those people (*) who protested for the war against Iraq protest now as strong as they did, but asking that people to be consequent might be too much.

(*) (And by "that people" I don't mean you, honest, pacifist and well intentioned forum member, but those who used the war of Iraq with political intentions, without giving actually a fuck about the iraqi population)

[InCreator]

I'd still try to find truth in facts and order.

If a region wants to separate, it depends heavily what is that region about and who lives there.

For example, if people who live there are rightful owners of the land through history, a country annexed and occupied at some point in history - just like most of Eastern Europe was after WWII, they should have right and backup from world to reclaim their long-lost independence and do things their own way...

Then again, if those people never had any rights for the land and are simply immigrants, they should not have right to make a new country. What would americans say if - for example, all russians in USA (and we know there's millions of them) would suddenly pull a flag up in the middle of Colorado and say "A new country will be here!". And start shooting guns?

What would happen is US army would kill or arrest them. They wouldn't have right to do so. This is how law and order works. And should.

But would Native Americans to do so at their areas? Instead of living in reservations, claim what was theirs?
They would have right.
Then again, army would still mince them.

And now, some third country comes and starts attacking USA, saying "we liked those russians/natives".
Who's totally out of place in this picture?

[Nacho]

The problem is where you draw the line... For example, Israel belonged to the cananeans, hebrews, philistines, romans, egyptians, assirians, babilonians, brits... Where do you put the line in the storyline and say "HERE! The populators in THIS period are the legitime owners"

It's difficult.

[RickJ]

Well in the case of Palestine the Britts were the legitimate owners.  They got it from the Turks who got it from all those other guys a 1000+ years ago.  They  involved themselves in a war (WWI) which they and their allies lost.  The price they paid for peace and to keep their home country, Turkey,  was to break up the rest of their empire and give it to the victors.   (see Wikipedia here and here for references)

[Nacho]

I mentioned Palestine as an example of "when do we draw the line". I didn' t want to start a debate about that... 

(Anyway, as you said, RickJ, even if the legitimate owners were the Britts (you specifically said "were") now they must be the Israelians, since the Britts gave it to the Israelians...)

But as you will see in a few posts, somebody won' t agree with me (us). It works perfectly for explaining my point, which is that these issues... are complicate.

[radiowaves]

South Ossetia is Georgias land. There are mostly Russian people there, and lots of immigrants. If those people want to go to Russia, then they should go, and leave the land for Georgia, because they don't belong there in the first place.

Russia is so lazy, its got a huge land, but all of it is rotting. it has always jerked off on others recourses and work. They act like wherever Russian goes, its now his land.

However, this doesn't go to all the russians out there. Some of my very good friends are russians, and they seem to be understanding people.

[aussie]

If those people want to go to Russia, then they should go, and leave the land for Georgia, because they don't belong there in the first place.

I'm afraid it doesn't work that way.

[Tuomas]

But as you will see in a few posts, somebody won' t agree with me (us). It works perfectly for explaining my point, which is that these issues... are complicate.

It's a common opinion in the west, and especially in Scandinavia, that Israel is the baddie. A friend of mine, who's from Israel got mad at me for asking these, apparently everyone there knows how we feel about them. Well I told her I don't have an opinion, or won't, until I see some prove to who's right and who's wrong. So she gave me her views, and it seemed pretty much what the Palestinians tell us about themselves. Dunno.

Though it's easy to stand against huge powerful states like Russia or the US, both are VERY hated around the world, both are like big brothers, who use their time to tease you, trip you down and sit on you or just smack you and eat your candy. Israel is more or less one of these, we've got France and the UK here in EU that everyone basically hates for their position. Israel is a country with a nuclear weapon and a lot of history on the war scenario, it's really not very hard to think they're the bad guys. After all, if you have to be afraid of one, you can't really start respecting them... In a sense. Of course, I'm not afraid of anything, military-wise, but economy's completely different, let's not bring it up now. I'm fully aware of Finland's history with the Soviet Union, but I don't see it coming back. Some do. There's a lot of hatered towards them and a lot of admiring towards the US, probably more than you could imagine. Finalnd is said to be the most American country after US itself. But we tend to hate Russia too. It's so easy to stand against something big... Unless you have to go and meet them face to face. I'm sure then most would just make compromises.

A bit off topic here, sorry.

Radiowaves, I realise you're very passionate about this subject, but can we please not start another war here at the forums. At least, if one of our Russian memebers would come in, it's probably not bee very nice if they said something about your home. Even though I doubt not a lot of people would disagree with you.

Also, Aussie, care to elaborate how does it actually work?

[InCreator]

"Explaining the crisis" is a video on CNN.com that wraps things up very well. They even list the reasons of both sides in the fight.

What they won't tell, I did. Russia's reasons are centuries old, heavily tested and blood-covered lie.

[aussie]

Also, Aussie, care to elaborate how does it actually work?

I simply think it's much more complex than that.

Even if those people are Russian they may have lived in Ossetia for generations. If not, their children might be Ossetian born and raised. When people are deeply rooted somewhere you can't simply say "they don't belong there, they should go". What about their homes, livings, jobs, social relations...? What about mixed families?Come on, there might be a complex political controversy here -with vested interests and what not- but there are also people involved.

I don't know much about this particular conflict, but I would say that you should be allowed to feel Russian in Ossetia - the same as you should be able to feel Australian in the US.

*******************

On a different note, I tend to agree with Nacho. Maybe it's because both Nacho and I live in Spain and we're seeing something a bit similar with the Catalans (of course there are many differences with the case at hand, and fortunately there is no war involved).

Quite a few Catalans currently think Catalonia should become independent from Spain. If they had their way, that'd be great for them. But what about those who feel both Spanish and Catalan? Would they not belong there anymore? Should they leave Catalonia? Should they be allowed to stay only provided that they changed certain customs (language, etc)?  And of course, you can look at this problem from the opposite position too. Those Catalans who do not feel at all Spanish will always be unhappy with the status quo.

As Nacho says, there are times when it's hard to tell what the "correct" solution is. Particularly with regions where the population has mixed feelings about their national identity. 

[Nacho]

Hey man, don' t agree with me so deeply, I have a reputation!

[Tuomas]

Well then you've got to watch what you say from now on, since I too tend to agree with you here.

Also, Aussie makes a good point. Don't think I'm being an ass, asking you to elaborate. I just wanted the view up wholly without having to say it myself And yeah, one thing I agree with, when I said some solutions can be a bit too hasty is, that spearatist places still have the people, who want to stay, but can't because of some "idiots" or just some who think otherwise. Well, usually they vote for it, making sure, that a clear majority wants the same thing.

[radiowaves]

Also, Aussie, care to elaborate how does it actually work?

I simply think it's much more complex than that.

Even if those people are Russian they may have lived in Ossetia for generations. If not, their children might be Ossetian born and raised. When people are deeply rooted somewhere you can't simply say "they don't belong there, they should go". What about their homes, livings, jobs, social relations...? What about mixed families?Come on, there might be a complex political controversy here -with vested interests and what not- but there are also people involved.

I don't know much about this particular conflict, but I would say that you should be allowed to feel Russian in Ossetia - the same as you should be able to feel Australian in the US.

What about their homes, eh? I am quite sure most of the homes are now destroyed anyway.

I am also quite sure they were able to feel Russian in Georgia, very much. I've been living in Russian regions in Estonia also, and its very disturbing when a russian person yells at you that those estonian fucks should speak russian... Some russian patroiots are just pricks like that.

[aussie]

What about their homes, eh? I am quite sure most of the homes are now destroyed anyway.

I am also quite sure they were able to feel Russian in Georgia, very much. I've been living in Russian regions in Estonia also, and its very disturbing when a russian person yells at you that those estonian fucks should speak russian... Some russian patroiots are just pricks like that.

As far as I know I haven't denied any of that.

I'm not trying to start a parallel war here or defend the Russians. All I'm saying is that "They don't belong there, they should go" is too easy to say. As I tried to explain above, it's way more complex than that.

Also, I can't help thinking that you might end up in nazi Germany if you pushed that slogan to its ultimate consequences.

[Vince Twelve]

Sorry, I understood that you were putting the USA in the discussion because you were paranoid or something.

Now I see the truth! You are not paranoid... It is just that you are confussion, GEORGIA, capital TBLISI with GEORGIA, capital Atlanta! 

Heh.  I was actually not paranoid or confused.  Just joking!  Hence the "</stereotypical american>" bit.

[Stupot]

Sorry, I understood that you were putting the USA in the discussion because you were paranoid or something.

Now I see the truth! You are not paranoid... It is just that you are confussion, GEORGIA, capital TBLISI with GEORGIA, capital Atlanta! 

Heh.  I was actually not paranoid or confused.  Just joking!  Hence the "</stereotypical american>" bit.

I think he might've been aiming that at me, as it was me who brough America into the conversation... I may not be the most politically and culturally informed member of these boards but I'm not a total dimwit... I was just referring to the US's friendship with Georgia and their understandable interests in the region.

Paranoia or not I still think the US is Jonesing for a skirmish with the Russians...

[EldKatt]

In Soviet Russia, Georgia invades you.

No, wait...

You all saw this coming, I hope.

[InCreator]

Georgia (not autonomous region of S-O) is invaded now.

Still keeping peace in troublesome region?
Or occupying a whole country along with the region?

I toooold youuu sooo....

Time to go after scapegoat, teh evil Saakashvili. Ahem, just like someone went after Saddam. What happened?
What will most likely happen... again?

Shitstorm gets worse.

[EldKatt]

Hmm, is Saddam the new Hitler?

(I realize that I've just made two really off-topic and pointless posts in a row. No, I have nothing interesting to contribute.)

[Tuomas]

Georgia (not autonomous region of S-O) is invaded now.

Where do you get this? There's no such thing on the news, not on NYTimes or Der Spiegel online news-services or the finnish newspaper. Our minister for foreign affairs is in Georgia with the one from France representing EU and the OSCE, and they've signed a cease fire treaty with Saakashvili, while Russia called for NATO for an emergensy meeting, which will most probably take place soon. Aside from all this, there's nothing about Georgia being invaded.