School shootings

[Nikolas]

P.S. In case anyone tries to take my advice, for God's sake if you get in a fight make sure there are no weapons, you know guns, knives, etc.   

I just hope that no one will take such an advice from the Internet, and a forum.

I "know you" rick and I agree 100% with your post and your previous one, just wanted to say that no reason for a fight really. Unless absolutely necessary.

[lo_res_man]

Even if you took the weapons away, some kid who takes karate class could still kick a couple of other kids heads off. Really, full fledge martial arts are just that, skills to KILL. Personally While I don't think guys should just 'suck it up", feelings are important in all genders, though in different ways, I  do think we are  raising a narcissistic society. We don't seem to prepare adaquitly for failure. I think all these grownups still living with their parents is one of the symptoms, and it isn't just cooking with cheese. We need to not turn every failure in to a success but rather into a learning experience.  Bristle cone pine-cones must burn before they sprout, other wise the seed just rots. I fear we are setting up western society for a major rot.

[dbzking]

just shoot all the windows in you school and do not kill any one 

[Tuomas]

This morning at noon an 18-year-old brought a gun to his school in Tuusula, Finland. The school has been evaquated, and the shooter, who was a student has been captured now. The news say 1 person is certainly dead and 4 badly wounded, though the eyewitnesses told the news that 3 were dead and several wouded. These three would be the principle of the high school and 2 students. he also shot at the police.

Earlier there were videos on youtube by the name of Jokela High School Massacre 7.11.2007 and videos of the person testing out his weapon, a handgun. I wasn't able to find these, apparently they were all removed right after the shooting took place. It was most obvious this was a planned action. Other students said, thathe appeared at school and acted oddly, later violently, and started shooting. The principle called everyone into classrooms, and some excaped through windows.

I can't even find words to how shocked I feel about this. Where did this person get the idea? Or the gun? What were his motives? There must be somtheing really wrong with the world right now. I can't remember feeling like this ever before. Basically the society that I thought was one of the safest has turned into this. Even though it's clear this man was insane.

Also, we don't have a dedicated news channel. And the channel I was watching informed, that there will be a special news right at 15:20, after they first showed two american sitcoms. I think that says a lot of their taste in these things. Oh well. Now the news is on.

[vict0r]

Just an update to what Tuomas said. There is now 7 reported dead, including the shooter himself.

Oh, and here is his manifest:

I am a cynical existentialist, antihuman humanist, antisocial socialdarwinist, realistic idealist and godlike atheist.

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM! JUSTITIA SUUM CUIQUE DISTRIBUIT! SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS!

I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection.

You might ask yourselves, why did I do this and what do I want. Well, most of you are too arrogant and closed-minded to understand... You will proprably say me that I am"insane", "crazy", "psychopath", "criminal" or crap like that. No, the truth is that I am just an animl, a human, an individual, a dissident.

I have had enough. I don't want to be part of this fucked up society. Like some other wise people have said in the past, human race is not worth fighting for or saving... only worth killing. But... When my enemies will run and hide in fear when mentioning my name... When the gangsters of the corrupted governments have been shot in the streets... When the rule of idioracy and the democratic system has been replaced with justice... When intelligent people are finally free and rule the society instead of the idiocratic rule of majority... In that great day of deliverance, you will know what I want.

Long live the revolution... revolution against the system, which enslaves not only the majority of weak-minded masses but also the small minority of strong-minded and intelligent individuals! If we want to live in a different world, we must act. We must rise against the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes and overthrow the tyrants, gangsters and the rule of idiocracy. I can't alone change much but hopefully my actions will inspire all the intelligent people of the world and start some sort of revolution against the current systems. The system discriminating naturality and justice, is my enemy. The people living in the world of delusion and supporting this system are my enemies.

I am ready to die for a cause I know is right, just and true... even if I would lose or the battle would be only remembered as evil... I will rather fight and die than live a long and unhappy life.

And remember that this is my war, my ideas and my plans. Don't blame anyone else for my actions than myself. Don't blame my parents or my friends. I told nobody about my plans and I always kept them inside my mind only. Don't blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man war against humanity, governments and weak-minded masses of the world! No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It's time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!

[Candall]

"Bring back survival of the fittest!" - The Dead Guy

Sorry if that seems flippant, but this guy obviously wasn't smart enough to see that adaptability is the new "fitness."  That's what he lacked.  That's why he rampaged.  That's why he's dead.

[EldKatt]

His ideas are intriguing to me, and I would be very interested to hear his opinion regarding when, exactly, natural selection ceased.

[vict0r]

According to new news reports, he's not dead yet, only critically hurt. Go ask him in the hospital..!

[ildu]

Just an update to what Tuomas said. There is now 7 reported dead, including the shooter himself.

Not including the shooter. Seven victims dead: 5 boys, 2 girls and the principal of the school. The shooter himself is currently in intensive care after having shot himself in the head. It's now been about 8 hours since he shot himself, and his prognosis is not so good.

Also, if there's ever a time that I'd want a thread on an internet forum to be mature and respectful, it's now. So in advance I'd ask to please refrain from posting any 'radical' insight of your own, trying to pseudo-analyze how something like this is supposed to be handled, and whatnot. It's only radical to you, attention-whorey, immature and silly to others. So I hope this doesn't degenerate to an argument about existentialism, ideology, and similar such things.

[Tuomas]

Just an update to what Tuomas said. There is now 7 reported dead, including the shooter himself.

Not including the shooter. Seven victims dead: 5 boys, 2 girls and the principal of the school. The shooter himself is currently in intensive care after having shot himself in the head. It's now been about 8 hours since he shot himself, and his prognosis is not so good.

That's 8 dead. And I've been fed this thing for 8+ hours now, I don't want to listen to it anymore, so I won't come to this thread for a while.

[vict0r]

Also, if there's ever a time that I'd want a thread on an internet forum to be mature and respectful, it's now.

All these threads turn into what you talk about anyway. What's special about this one? No offence of course! I understand how you feel and I respect this but when this happends in America, the threads go all analytic..

[Candall]

So in advance I'd ask to please refrain from posting any 'radical' insight of your own, trying to pseudo-analyze how something like this is supposed to be handled, and whatnot.

Any reaction at all is healthy, and I certainly don't see the harm in people expressing their anger and opinions and sorting out their feelings in an anonymous, safe environment such as this.  It's only when people begin attacking one another as opposed to debating one anothers' opinions that things become... less than helpful.

It's good to feel angry about this, and it's good to express that anger, just don't misdirect it.

[LimpingFish]

What always surprises me is why these people, supposedly disenchanted with "society", don't just kill themselves right off the bat?

The fact that they go on a rampage first, raises the probability that it's plain attention that these people crave, and an insane desire to be accepted by the society they claim to abhorr.

His "manifest" is so full of contradictions and naiveties that, if it wasn't so tragic, it would be ridiculous.

Condolences to those familes who lost loved ones.

[vict0r]

What always surprises me is why these people, supposedly disenchanted with "society", don't just kill themselves right off the bat?

The fact that they go on a rampage first, raises the probability that it's plain attention that these people crave, and an insane desire to be accepted by the society they claim to abhorr.

His "manifest" is so full of contradictions and naiveties that, if it wasn't so tragic, it would be ridiculous.

Condolences to those familes who lost loved ones.

Well, by getting into media they can spread their beliefs so that more people might go about doing the same thing and further spreading it!

[Eggie]

I have a few theories but I'm saving them for when I get the opportunity to co-write an opera.
It would have a similar logo to High School Musical but it would be called High School Massacre. We will have so many awards.

[LimpingFish]

More likely he would spout such nonsense in an attempt to convince, not only the world, but also himself that there was reason behind his actions. That he was forced into the situation. In his own eyes it makes him a martyr. Maybe even a hero.

Instead of a sad child who couldn't cope with the realities of life, and decided that if he killed some people then everybody else would have to, at least, acknowledge his existence.

Which is probably why he didn't just kill himself at the outset.

Again, condolences to the families of his victims.

[ildu]

So in advance I'd ask to please refrain from posting any 'radical' insight of your own, trying to pseudo-analyze how something like this is supposed to be handled, and whatnot.

Any reaction at all is healthy, and I certainly don't see the harm in people expressing their anger and opinions and sorting out their feelings in an anonymous, safe environment such as this.  It's only when people begin attacking one another as opposed to debating one anothers' opinions that things become... less than helpful.

It's good to feel angry about this, and it's good to express that anger, just don't misdirect it.

Yeah, I understand. I wasn't speaking about any of the existing posts. Usually threads such as these just seem to unravel to a point where the discussion simply gets ridiculous and immature. That's about the point where I tune out, and I'd like to keep tuned into this one. Anyway, I was refering to the most extreme kinds of insight, and not specifically pertaining to a school shooting thread either, but to a number of controversial topics.

That said, I agree with LimpingFish. It's quite a double-standard to claim to have been outcasted by society and disrespected, and still announce that you're tantamount to a god.

My first reaction to this whole thing was "let's ban all guns", while my parents' reaction was "video games, music, movies, internet - all bad". Though after calming down a bit and learning that the gun was purchased completely legally and with a recommendation from his resident gun club (gun permits are generally very difficult to acquire here), I realized that guns are hardly a main cause of something like this, nor are violent media as we all would probably argue. Though, I did start to think about the selection of games out there and ones that I occasionally play myself, and was surprised to come to the conclusion that the vast majority involve killing in some way or another. But, that's a whole other conversation to have.

I think it's most a case of the well-being of youths in our country and around the world, and as the authorities are now emphasizing, without pointing any fingers, a case of social service. People are now asking how this wasn't detected in his behaviour, why people on the internet didn't react in time, and what's pushing young people to do things like this, being quite a new and worrying trend. It's a very similar reaction to earlier school shootings, and especially VirginiaTech, where the similarities are very eery.

[Candall]

Yes, getting people to direct their anger at their targets has always been the tricky part.

[RickJ]

My first reaction to this whole thing was "let's ban all guns", while my parents' reaction was "video games, music, movies, internet - all bad". Though after calming down a bit and learning that the gun was purchased completely legally and with a recommendation from his resident gun club (gun permits are generally very difficult to acquire here), I realized that guns are hardly a main cause of something like this, nor are violent media as we all would probably argue. ...

I think it's most a case of the well-being of youths in our country and around the world, and as the authorities are now emphasizing, without pointing any fingers, a case of social service. People are now asking ... and what's pushing young people to do things like this ...

I whole heartedly agree with you on these points.  To answer the  question "What's pushing young people to do things like this?", IMHO, at least in the US, kids are sheltered from failure experiences from an early age.  Everything is structured and arranged so that every kid will succeed.  Even when they fail they are told that they have succeeded.  In US schools it's fashionable to build self esteem, deserved or not, at all costs.  Unfortunately this can be done for only so long.  Eventually kids grow up and begin to experience the harsh realities of life and are totally unprepared.  So now ask yourself what's the most traumatic thing that happens to nearly everyone at this guy's age?   How much do you want to bet this guy doesn't have a girlfriend? 

[EldKatt]

FYI, the shooter is dead by now, bringing the total (and AFAIK final) victim count to nine.