The BNP

[Adamski]

I think it's pretty dangerous to be all wolly about the BNP by saying "it's not racial hatred, it's just free speech even though it's pretty appaling free speech", it sort of gives them a certain degree of validation that they shouldn't be getting. No matter how they try and spin it they represent everything that is rephrensible about British (or any) culture, and even the tiniest hint that they're gaining momentum should worry every single clear minded person currently living in the UK.

Back when I still lived in london, there were Indians who were voting BNP, too.  Mostly as they were sick of my Borough's efforts to take in as many Kosovan Refugees as possible.

This is both hilarious and kind of sad, because these are the kind of people that would vote the BNP in to power and then, as made evident by Nick Griffin's comments this very morning, find themselves being shut out by the very party they wanted in government because of their ethnicity and skin colour.

[Renal Shutdown]

It's sad, yes. But I can completely understand their mentality. They, for the most part, liked their town, and the Labour councillors were doing a bang up job of ruining things.  Youth clubs, social buildings, other things for the people were all closed down, and had the refugees sleeping in them.  They 'tried' to make it seem better than it was, paying a few of the immigrants to actually spray paint the floor gold.  They got bored, and only did random slabs here and there, and probably clobbered some old biddies with the paint cans.

They also had a big campaign about how they were putting 300+ more bins in the area.  They failed to empty the bins we had, and the new bins were overflowing within days.  There was rubbish everywhere.

The police? The whole area had 1 police car at night, and it's a rough area.  Gangs, stabbings, drug-crimes, the works.

The council's answer? Take in more immigrants, as they were getting money for each one they 'housed'.  When a proper, non-racist party screws things up, where else would people turn to?  They might be shut out by the party they elect, but at least they don't have to watch the town they love go even further down the crapper.

(For the record, I've moved away from there a couple of years ago.  I wouldn't even want to go back to visit, as it's horrible.  Walking to work was a risk of stabbing everyday).

[Huw Dawson]

"White" people didn't vote for the BNP - racists did.

Making distinctions along racial lines is racism. There are no "Whites", "Blacks", "Indians" etc. That's the chief problem of the BNP.

- Huw

[BOYD1981]

Boyd, I'm a little confused by your posts... What's your interpretation of the Obama situation? That he has some kind of secret anti-white agenda that's going to come into play? It sounds unlikely that that's a thing someone would think so could you clarify?

I have no interpretation of the situation, but I do think it would be possible for certain sub-educated black and white people to allow themselves to think that because of the colour of his skin he will put black interests first (plus there was that speech he made). The stupid thing about that though ofcourse is that he is both black AND white, but people don't seem to take that into consideration.

I still prefer Bush though; politics just isn't as funny without his constant gaffs and gurning.

[Pumaman]

It's sad, yes. But I can completely understand their mentality. They, for the most part, liked their town, and the Labour councillors were doing a bang up job of ruining things.

Exactly -- most people who vote BNP probably don't believe in their racist policies, but rather see the BNP as the only party that is willing to challenge the status quo on immigration (for example). In the sort of situation like you describe, it's easy to see why people would become disillusioned with the mainstream parties who weren't doing anything about their local issues, and vote for a radical party that promised to do something radical to sort it out.

What the mainstream parties need to do is stop blaming people for voting BNP, and start paying attention to what it is that people want that the government is not delivering, and therefore driving people to vote BNP out of desparation.

[LimpingFish]

Exactly the same thing has been happening here over the weekend.

You have the ruling party(s) taking a kicking because voters are fed up with what they perceive to be a lack of leadership or a lack of ability to govern. Just as the Conservatives have slaughtered Labour in the UK, Ireland's ruling parties, Fianna Fail and the Green Party, have lost a large chunk of seats to the main opposition parties of Fine Gael and Labour. The Green Party (or rather our Green Party) showed themselves to be nothing more than a group of ineffectual "yes men" when they went into partnership with FF, and have been hemorrhaging seats like a paper-skinned hemophiliac in a knife fight.

And in these situations, you usually get seats trickling down to what would normally be thought of as the wild card parties.

I would never entertain the thought of voting for something as horrendously vile as the BNP, though.

But that's just me.

[Meowster]

Whoa, a little unprovoked aggression/trolling from Boyd? Dude there was hardly a need for any of that. Closet BNP supporter?

Anyways, the issue with the BNP isn't just racism either - there's a whole lot wrong with that party besides simply racism.

Pumaman, I'm not so sure that most people vote for the BNP out of desperation. I met a couple of old English people in Spain once, they'd retired together out there, had plenty of money, but had grown up with the idea that immigrants are all troublemakers, blacks are all thieves, England isn't what it used to be, yadda yadda yadda... and I remember having to sit in silence biting my lip hard while they talked about the BNP having the right idea trying to get rid of the blacks and immigrants. They also read the Daily Mail like it was the best news source on the planet I do truly believe that there are people out there who still think in this way and believe that the BNP are great.

A friend of mine dated a girl for four years and she hid it from her parents because they would never accept a white non-muslim man into their family; another friend had a similar story but was not accepted by her family because he was black. And all this in the UK which we all think is pretty forward-thinking until we meet people like this and realise perhaps it's not all quite so...

I think the people you are speaking of who vote "out of desperation" are probably also mislead by BNP campaigns into believing that immigrants are responsible for all the UKs problems, etc etc. I got a BNP leaflet through my door a few weeks back that essentially said this. So yeah, I guess I can see why people with only half a brain would believe this  unquestionably. Still though, it's epicly disappointing for me... I think the final figures were 900,000ish votes for BNP throughout the whole of the UK. That's an awful lot of fuckwits.

EDIT: Actually I just thought I'd throw in - I've been doing a lot of work with a certain group of disadvantaged people recently. Most of them are homeless or in shabby council housing, have drug habits and alcohol problems etc. Most came from lower class but reasonable backgrounds, with an education and married parents, stable enough home environment etc. However they've fallen into the position they are in life because of various problems such as drugs, too unintelligent to look after themselves, crime, etc. In many of the cases you could argue that the reason they're where they are is primarily their own fault (this is particular to the group I work with).

Most of them are white men or women from the local area, born and bred in Brighton which is an incredibly open-minded and laid-back place where you can be gay, straight, or transgender, black white or anything inbetween... whoever you want, and nobody will care.

However, they're mostly all very racist and narrow minded people. They often blame others for their problems - they blame the fact they can't find a job on immigrants. They heard this somewhere, I guess, and then repeat it back to other people to excuse the fact they're too lazy/stupid/on drugs to find anything themselves, until the point where they really start to believe it I think. They blame black people on the fact they can't get council housing - and not the fact that they got kicked out of every council house they were in for smashing down doors/windows. And if you ask them why they can't articulate why very well... "because they come in and take our jobs innit, them blacks what are working in McDonalds and that like" etc etc. Blame blame blame blame, and they all have little toddlers that come in with them, learning what they see/hear.

[Technocrat]

As a British voter, I just have to say, it's *embarassing* that so much of the Right got voted in this time. It's this kind of thing that gives me qualms about proportional representation in elections.

[Vince Twelve]

I don't see what all the fuss is about.  They seem like good guys to me.  Now excuse me while I go home and rape my wife.

(Where's the emoticon for "holy fracking barf?")

[bicilotti]

They blame black people on the fact they can't get council housing - and not the fact that they got kicked out of every council house they were in for smashing down doors/windows.

I appreciated the fact you started this thread Meowster. We heard different opinions from different people (personally I found Renal Shutdown's posts very interesting).

Still, sentences like the one above feel a bit rushed to me (they is a peferct word to depict a grotesque caricature and not a person).

Anyway, let's talk about serious business

Yuster always gets very passionate about things she believes in.

I think yufster is a dude.

                          -bicilotti (bringing european politics to meaningful questions, like, errr, "asl?")

[BOYD1981]

Well I won't apologise for any offense I may have caused because it's unintended and therefore not my fault if you're offended by it. And I already said it isn't trolling, it's just you have a tendancy to start threads like this and contribute very little towards them, so if anything I'm guilty of getting you to respond with a longer post that you've obviously spent some time thinking about.
Which, believe or not, was my goal.
So go me!

But I'm getting offtopic, which I don't want to do.

[Meowster]

Honestly Boyd... wtf? I hate to rise to trolling, but I would like you to take another look at the post I made. I alluded to you only briefly to point out that there was no need for your anger, the rest of the reply was because of the other intelligent discussion on the thread and primarily in reply to Pumaman and Renal and absolutely nothing to do with your trollish replies. I don't want you to be under any delusion that your trollish replies caused me to somehow magically post something worthwhile, as that was your apparent alterior motive for being a bit of a dick. Also I wasn't offended particularly, but this sentence still doesn't make sense:

I won't apologise for any offense I may have caused because it's unintended and therefore not my fault if you're offended by it.

It's the fault of the person who was offended so long as the offence was unintentional? Do I even need to explain why this is a ridiculous statement?


bicilotti - that was pretty much a direct story from a guy I spoke to last week, hence I used it as an example as it was at the forefront of my memory. Honestly, wasn't a rushed sentence. I hear many many variations of the same excuse, it can be incredibly depressing. Notice though that I pointed out that this is behaviour particular to the group of people I work with, who are people who have befallen a very particular set of circumstances. I didn't want anyone to think I was talking about all poor/lower class/disadvantaged/etc people.  

Slightly off-topic now... Where I'm currently working, almost every day there will be at least two or three people late for their appointments here and when they are refused entry, will fly into (sometimes violent) rages. "It wasn't my fault I was late, I got arrested for shoplifted, it was the fucking coppers fault I was late" is usually the excuse used. I wonder whether it's the tendancy to blame others for all of lifes problems that puts these people where they are in life, or the fact that they are where they are that puts them in this position where they feel they have to blame others? Whatever it is, I've noticed that it is commonly linked with racism and this belief that it's the fault of immigrants that they are where they are.

Also after writing all of this I've just realised... My summer job sucks

So yeah I think it's sad that the mainstream parties are so rubbish with so little backbone that people feel disallusioned by them and vote BNP. But also I think that it's more than that - there is a small but unpleasant undercurrent of ignorance, racism, misogynism, religious hatred etc in the UK, and it's just really sad to see an actual figure like this I guess.

I think it's pretty dangerous to be all wolly about the BNP by saying "it's not racial hatred, it's just free speech even though it's pretty appaling free speech", it sort of gives them a certain degree of validation that they shouldn't be getting. No matter how they try and spin it they represent everything that is rephrensible about British (or any) culture, and even the tiniest hint that they're gaining momentum should worry every single clear minded person currently living in the UK.

Ahhh also, I agree with this. I am kinda torn as although I would love them to be outlawed as a party, some people point out it's not right to simply "shut up" people who have views I don't like - fair enough. But you've worded it well there.

However, apparently they're not gaining momentum particularly - I read somewhere that they got less votes than in 2004, but the low voter turnout caused them to get seats this time. Not sure how true that is but if it's true, it makes me a bit happier... at least idiot non-voters are to blame, instead of there being some sudden explosion of fuckwits in the UK.

[Matti]

I met a couple of old English people in Spain once, they'd retired together out there, had plenty of money, but had grown up with the idea that immigrants are all troublemakers, blacks are all thieves, England isn't what it used to be, yadda yadda yadda...

Haha, they're sick of the immigrants in England so they migrate to Spain. That's the spirit.

But I agree to those saying that nationalist parties are gaining popularity whenever the people are fed up with the mayor parties or when there are hard times coming and some dumbass politicians who weren't elected before promise heaven on earth.. or at least another, better way to solve the problems.

Of course there ARE people who stand behind those parties. Both in Italy and here in Germany, the post fascist parties are getting votes and Nazis are walkin around... fortunately not too many.

[EDIT:]

I'm no friend of banning those parties too. Well, I don't care if the NPD (the Nationalist Party) in Germany would get prohibited (two attempts failed til now), but the problem would persist. You can't get weird thoughts and ideologies out of peoples minds by forbidding things. Instead I guess that would make it worse..

[Huw Dawson]

There are hundreds of reasons for anybody in here to hate the BNP. Such as the founder saying that Mein Kampf was his bible. Such as the BNP having a list of "Trade union people to deal with" once they get elected. Such as the former leader who explained that it isn't rape if its with your wife and women enjoy sex anyway so...

The sad fact is that anti-BNP fights always end up punching jelly, because the people who believe in life along racial borders will always be there. The campaigns are almost always that the BNP are "bad" but not why.

- Huw

[Eggie]

Another good reason not to try and silence organisations like the BNP: Don't give them the opportunity to play the 'victim' card.
The sight of them playing the victim card would be supremely vomit-inducing. Actual vomit would be induced.

[Stee]

Heh, I got one of those card thingies through the door from the British Nazi Party, with a little form attached. I wondered what would happen if I put Muslim O'Gunbomb down as my name?

What people are scared of is the fact that, in short, they're cunts, and its not like something like this has never been voted into a country before. Look at Germany in the 1930s-1940s.

Personally I didn't vote this year, just like I havent voted for the 4 years I have been able to. Lets face it, there are only 3 parties powerful enough to actually get into number 10 (Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem). The other parties just seem to be lacking something to allow them to compete with these guys.

Personally I think Monster Raving Loony Party are probably the most qualified to do the job at the moment. I mean, who DOESN'T want a 99p coin?

Immigration is a cause for concern, however I don't think the situation can be resolved by purging people from the country. We should just refuse to let anyone else in until some of them have left.

Unfortunately I think the only way the problem is going to be solved is when immigrants take all the jobs that pikey chavs should be getting off their arses to do instead of scrounging off the dole, bleed the country dry, and the bugger off to another country to repeat the process.

Forgive me if that sounds racist. To be honest my argument would be to deport all the scroungers (not unemployed people, scroungers - there is a difference) and replaced them with the hard working immigrants. If they are willing to work thats fine with me, but we gotta throw someone out.

[Hudders]

As a British voter, I just have to say, it's *embarassing* that so much of the Right got voted in this time. It's this kind of thing that gives me qualms about proportional representation in elections.

As a British voter, I'm embarassed about the voter turn-out more than anything else. That more people would rather vote for who should win Britain's Got Talent than who should represent them in the European Parliament is a terrible state of affairs.

35% turnout is just so unbelievably shameful. Part of that blame lies with the major parties for not being appealing enough and with the minor parties for not being vocal enough about what they stand for and who they represent. Part of the blame also lies with the proliferation of exactly this mindset:

Lets face it, there are only 3 parties powerful enough to actually get into number 10 (Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem). The other parties just seem to be lacking something to allow them to compete with these guys.

What they're lacking is votes, and the reason they're not getting votes is down to the belief that voting for smaller parties is "throwing your vote away". Well, the people who voted for the BNP didn't throw their votes away - there are now two MEPs from that party. The people who voted for UKIP didn't throw their votes away either.

Another good reason not to try and silence organisations like the BNP: Don't give them the opportunity to play the 'victim' card.

Well said.

[Renal Shutdown]

But what happens when the immigrants are scroungers, too?

And I'd say Lib Dem's a pretty long shot, and in recent times, they're doing a fine job of making themselves less votable.

I think the final figures were 900,000ish votes for BNP throughout the whole of the UK. That's an awful lot of f*ckwits.

It's 900k that are willing to try and make a change*, though (albeit it a bad one).  Most people affliate themselves with a party, and vote regardless.  If they're Labour they only vote Labour.  They'd rather not vote than vote Tory.  Sometimes they switch from one party to another, but generally, they don't.

I should really vote to abstain (as far as I know, this is possible), as if I don't vote, I've no legal standing to complain about who's in power.  Personally, I dislike the system itself so I choose to avoid it entirely.  If I could afford to emigrate to a better country, I would.  That stems from various reasons, not just lack of trust in the government.

How many people voted Labour, by the way? As they've pretty much ballsed things up over the last two terms.  The country's suffering economically, we were roped into a war we shouldn't have been part of, the NHS still seems incompetent, education doesn't seem all that great, and crime seems worse than ever.  But still, people vote for Labour.  Personally, I'd class a Labour vote as a f*ckwit vote, too.

There's a good thing that'll hopefully come from the BNP getting votes.  With any luck the serious parties will take note of the turn out, realise they're losing voters, and subsequently get their collective sh*t together and start doing stuff to please the people.

*Obama was voted in due to many people wanting to make a change, heck that was his main campaign ideal.  Despite being an unlikely candidate to begin with,  he made people believe their votes counted for something.

As for your work with the disadvantaged folk, Yuffie, it's not surprising they're racist.  They're going to want to blame someone other than themselves.  It's human nature to shift blame, and it's rare that someone's willing to throw their hands up and admit 'I f*cked up'.  People usually have to hit rock bottom before they realise, and quite often they do something stupid before getting that low.

Racism's an easy thing to blame their difficulties on.  It's a pretty generic target, and it's not something personal to them.  But at the same time, it's not just the disadvantaged, it's everyone.  They're brought up with racist comments at home and from their peers, and they're slowly indoctrinated into believing it.

My parents did the same with me, as did some of the people in my school.  But, part of me rebelled against them, and part of me saw thru the bullsh*t.  I can't really believe the racist comments, when my white friends were in the minority.  Maybe you had an easy-going upbringing, or maybe you saw thru the comments, too.  You can't expect most people to do it, though.  People don't change views very often, so if they're brought up racist, they'll stay that way until they have a revelation.  They'll rarely change on their own accord.

Most people just aren't that intelligent.

[Dualnames]

Meowster, I think you not wanting them into the parliament(that's what I get) is racism too. You're being a racist against racists. We're supposed to have democracy (supposed to), so it's good to hear all thoughts. Even the bad ones. Even the racist ones.

[Nacho]

What do you have against Banque Nationale de Paris???