Tropes vs Women

[selmiak]

whoopsie, must have missed it in a second of microsleep

[Ryan Timothy B]

Ryan Timothy; I'm not sure what you wanted to say with your last post. You admit that you're enjoying stereotypically sexualized female 3d-characters, and therefore... well, therefore what? Do you find the way the game designers have exploited her sexuality (to provide eye candy for male players) a good thing or a bad thing? Please explain.

I meant that I have no issue playing as the female character in a game like Hunted, just to stare at her ass on every cutscene that she lifts a door, while she walks sideways between tight areas, or ducks under stuff. Do I want EVERY game to be like this? No. Heck no. But I certainly enjoyed the extra bonus of seeing that beautiful character doing provocative poses and such; so no, I never felt it was a bad thing at all, that a game developer made a game with sexual interest in mind. She wasn't a "girly" girl, but she did have a very attractive body (with unpractical armor lol). I didn't know anything about this game before playing it though, so I never bought it so I could stare at E'lara's ass every cutscene.

I know what I said was conflicting, where I find no interest in playing a game that has a female only protagonist but I played Hunted as the female - but only because of how much better she was at the bow. I've played games as the female protagonists, but the majority of them are games like Portal where she's a mute and basically genderless. But for 3rd person games or talking ones where it's just a female and no male sidekick, it just doesn't appeal to me. Probably because the majority of games I play are either RPG or shooters.

If Gears of War was played as a big butch woman or even a gorgeous skinny one, I never would've bought it.

The thing that bothers me about Anita Sarkeesian's views is that it seems as though she desires a world with genderless plots. It almost feels as though she's asexual. I somewhat understand where she's coming from though and I agree that it would bother me just as much too - but she never did talk about this directly. Males in entertainment are shown as heroic and strong, whereas females are shown as fragile, week, sexy and a stereotypical barbie. There's generally no middle ground with female characters. Where male roles in entertainment range from fat to skinny, ugly to attractive.

Even in the game Rage that I started playing yesterday, the majority of the men are either fat and/or ugly, but all the women I've seen so far are attractive and skinny (albeit, it's only the first two towns). It doesn't bother me because I prefer to see skinny attractive women, as that's what I want to see.

[Khris]

I can't be bothered to watch the 3rd part, but since it hasn't been mentioned in this thread: the latest Tomb Raider game. Not only is it amazing in almost every respect, it's heroine is a plausible, real, strong woman. Does she mention the game? Cause it doesn't appear in the lists of the 2nd or 3rd part.
Seems like a weird omission, given that it is a perfect example of what I guess Sarkeesian wants to see more of.

[xil]

I can't be bothered to watch the 3rd part, but since it hasn't been mentioned in this thread: the latest Tomb Raider game. Not only is it amazing in almost every respect, it's heroine is a plausible, real, strong woman. Does she mention the game? Cause it doesn't appear in the lists of the 2nd or 3rd part.
Seems like a weird omission, given that it is a perfect example of what I guess Sarkeesian wants to see more of.

I don't believe she does mention Tomb Raider, possibly due to the irony of the original being exactly what she doesn't like about female protagonists

[Jared]

Whether you agree with Anita or not,  her decision to disable comments on her videos after being publicly funded to make them was/is a pretty 'meh' thing to do. Telling people how it is and closing off any chance of a debate is not the logical nor the mature way forward imo. Sure, she is likely to receive some bad comments but this also stops those who agree with her to share their thoughts, too. She has put herself on a public platform and should be scrutinised just like everybody else. I'm not saying she is wrong in her beliefs, she makes some valid points - I just feel that the conversation shouldn't be so one sided. Maybe I am wrong? I'm glad she's passionate about the whole thing, it's good to be passionate about something.

I couldn't agree more. The series was mooted as something to provoke discussion, so it's unfortunate that she is actively blocking it. Yes, she's had a high amount of negative response on YouTube but passing it off as people online being misogynistic and hostile as she has isn't strictly true - although Anita makes some good points she doesn't give any time or credit to the opposing argument (at least that in the five or so videos I have seen) so her work ends up being basically an editorial rather than any kind of exploration of the issues.

I haven't seen the third video yet, and it's partly because her second video was.. quite poor. It was largely a list of female damsels who had been killed in video games, presented as evidence of a misogynistic streak in writing. There are several problems with this:

1) The death of a female character, particularly those she lists, is generally intended to provoke a negative response from the player and motivation to partake in revenge and give the player a sense of agency. Obviously real world violence against women is deplorable, but the purpose of fictional violence against fictional violence has no connection to it.

2) Violence is the main means of interaction in video games. This is itself for sensible reasons - for a game you need obstacles to overcome and the most immediate and relateable are physical threats of violence or other danger. Over the past decade the amount of violence driven games has remained steady (possibly even increased) but storytelling came back into the fore as an expected feature for any game. They vary widely in terms of quality BUT they generally fill their goal of tying the plot and gameplay together. So, if you have written a violent game, it's going to be a violent story, surely?

I think this is demonstrated when in her list she included Hotline Miami. There is a big problem with this...

Spoiler

..and it is the fact that EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER who appears in the game is killed over the course of the game. Yes. Every single one. Including BOTH player characters.

[close]

3) The list was very long... but all that proves is how many video games have been made in the past decade. Without any measure of context or comparison - say, what percentage of AAA titles featured a woman graphically being killed - the list is absolutely meaningless. To prove this (to myself largely, but I had been contemplating a vlog) I sat down and, off the top of my read, wrote down the male characters killed off to give the player character motivation over the same period of time in video games. It wasn't THAT easy since I'm a PC exclusive gamer, but I got 30 games and I'm sure there's a bucketload more on XBOX and PS.

As I've said, with violence the main means of interaction and agency, there have been just as many cases (if not more) of supporting male NPCs that the player forms a bond with who are then killed off. There are a lot of cut corners in making game storylines because they often have one writer who needs to turn it over quickly - it's more symptomatic of the industry than any particular view towards women.


So frankly, I find it a little frustrating that she makes videos with such odd, one sided arguments when there is definitely a solid argument of sexist attitudes in games and the gaming community. It feels like she resorts to strawmen on occasions when it really isn't necessary.

[Ryan Timothy B]

So I've watched a few more of her videos and can't believe how strongly feminist she is. Like this video:
[embed=560,315]http://youtu.be/CrmRxGLn0Bk[/embed]

Why!? The whole Friends Lego for girls product. Why does she think girls can't play the other Lego? Clearly they AREN'T (statistically), so I see no issue in the attempt to make Lego more appropriate to what they currently play. I honestly don't see the issue here. It's not like the other Lego is advertised "for boys". If girls want to build airplanes, then build damn airplanes. The only issue obviously being that parents wouldn't ever buy the airplane set for their daughters with "girl" sets like this available. But still, she's pulling at everything that even remotely resembles a "separated sexes" world.

If she really wants to earn my vote, then start bitching that women pay less on car insurance.

[xil]

Yea, that video was 95% rubbish. I think I could sum in 30 words what she took 10 mins to insanely patronisingly, one-sided-ly, 'explain' to me about LEGO. I think that's the last one I'll watch but I wish her luck with the various points I agreed with in her other videos.

[alpy]

So the adverts say "have an activia" but I really want some bacon. Do I:
- complain about the sexism of commercials
- buy the bacon and get over it

As a girl growing up in the 80s in Poland, I had the usual girly paraphernalia of dolls, doll's houses, prams, etc. At the same time, I also had scalextrics, trucks you had to build from parts, plane models and "little electrician" sets. And building blocks - not lego, obviously, but as good as. So my answer is: it is your parents' decision whether you play with pink-purply barbie or a remote controlled tank (had one, too). And then it is your choice, once you are old enough to choose whatever you like.

I bought Hannah Montana for the Wii (when I was way too old for it) and Fable III for the Xbox. Did the stereotypes skew my vision of the world? No! It was all my choice.

[Andail]

I meant that I have no issue playing as the female character in a game like Hunted, just to stare at her ass on every cutscene that she lifts a door, while she walks sideways between tight areas, or ducks under stuff. Do I want EVERY game to be like this? No. Heck no. But I certainly enjoyed the extra bonus of seeing that beautiful character doing provocative poses and such; so no, I never felt it was a bad thing at all, that a game developer made a game with sexual interest in mind.

Ok... well, the gender discourse isn't about what you personally have issues with, it's about how certain symbols and stereotypes (depictions of women in this case) affect our society at large.

Some things people need to stop repeating in this thread:
* "Sex sells and companies only cater to their buyers" - this is obvious, and nobody disputes it. It's a part of the problem. It's not the answer to the question "how do gender stereotypes affect the way we treat each other?"
* "I don't mind looking at nice asses" - again, obvious. All people do. It doesn't address anything we're discussing here, it's not even related to the question.

I personally believe in the power of symbols, even the most subtle ones. I believe we're profoundly affected by the tinies signals, if we keep being exposed to them.

Most posters here have testified that their personal opinions would never be influenced by stereotypes seen in games or movies, but most people also don't believe they're influenced by commercials when they shop for groceries. And then we haven't even mentioned yet how young, impressionable children are affected.

I once held a sex ed course (yeah, really) for my 8-9-graders, and the amount of misinformation, stereotypes and prejudices they harboured was staggering. It was so obvious how their views on women (and what they're supposed to look and act like) were more or less a direct product of mainstream media, and especially video games.

[Myinah]

Andail thank you for saying that. I think we can all agree that adults capable of understanding the media and marketing can understand and make informed choices on their media consumption and be aware it is fantasy, not an accurate portrayal of real life and get that they are being presented information in a manipulative way. However, not everyone has that awareness, and children are especially vulnerable to the constant diet of stereotypes and sexual imagery that is now the background noise of our culture.

Ryan I'm surprised you were surprised that she's quite feminist. Her channel is called Feminist Frequency so I didn't think it would be a shock. And regarding the lego, I have no problem with there being a Lego set that is pink and "feminine" but she's trying to point out that the lego sets that have public service roles like fire fighters, police, etc have no female mini figs. Why not? Women are in every public sector serving their country and our kids should know that, boys and girls alike.

I see a lot of guys saying they wont play games as girls, but in the same breath saying girls should just play with the sets even though the mini figs are all boys. Are you not seeing the double standard? Girls do enjoy playing with Lego, but girls would like to have some mini figs of the gender they identify with the same as the guys. Equally by only having hair dressers, bakers and retail assistants in the female category it is sending a message to both genders on what they can do. Girls, you are hair dressers, and home makers and you like fashion. Guys, you don't do that stuff, that isnt for you. You are fire fighters and policemen.

Anecdotally I have a young male cousin who adored pink and a doll called Felicity Wishes. He took her everywhere and he would sing and dance and was basically this really happy little kid who told me he wanted to be a dancer and do make up. His parents just let him just be who he was because they love him and why should they tell him he cant like those things? The only real issue came when he got to school and was so horrendously bullied for not being "a proper boy" that he completely changed into what he was told he was supposed to be by his peers. When I asked him where Felicity was he said "I got rid of her. She's a girls toy. Boys dont like pink or dolls." He stopped dancing, stopped all the things that could have been considered feminine because he learned that displaying an interest in feminine things was bad if you were a boy. I think that is a shame. Maybe if toys were marketed more gender neutrally, and more parents explained that there are no "male" or "female" colours or jobs he would still be the completely free and happy kid he used to be.

Maybe people will disagree with me, but I think it is really difficult to talk about this subject without people getting defensive because change is hard. People like things to be as they always were. If there are more female characters then like Ryan said, he wont be buying those games because they simply wont appeal to him. It might feel annoying to a guy if suddenly the experience of games was taken down a level, even if it meant that his female peers went up significantly so they had a more similar experience overall. It comes down to people not liking to lose their privilege to allow others a better experience. I don't want to get into hyperbolic comparisons, but any change that has sought equality for people has been met with resistance from those who would lose a bigger slice of their already significantly larger pie.

But the discussion here has been interesting and I've enjoyed the debate thus far

[qptain Nemo]

I just want to say I love playing as women in games. If a game provides a choice in 99% cases I pick to play as a lady. The majority of the protagonists I write and design are women. This is my dark secret. Don't tell anyone please or they will expel me from The Masculine Manly Male Man Club.

[Dropped Monocle Games]

I am with you qptain Nemo, its my dark secret too! I always choose the female when playing a game that lets me choose, my Femshep kicked ass.

I have always been labeled as the guy that would come out someday and everyone would say "oh sox, yer.. glad he finally came out, always knew he was gay!" but I'm not, in a very happy relationship with a beautiful woman and I LOVE boobs!

I have just always enjoyed the things I have been told I shouldn't like pink fluffy things, unicorns (horses with swords on their heads!), dressing up and playing females in video games, and never really liked sports. for along time it used to really get me down and I would feel bullied for having a "feminine" view of the world, it was only in my adult years that I start to get over it and give the middle finger to anyone that had a problem with what I enjoy.

A lot of that bullying comes from other peoples points of view on what I should be and do based on my gender, and that seems to come from parenting and media.

*shrugs*

I don't have a problem with a male character helping a female character, but its nice to see some inventive writing. Too often the damsel is used as a lazy plot device to give the protagonist a reason to do something. There are millions of other things to write about so it would be nice to see a bit more creativity. The videos have helped make me think about one of my own creations in particular and I've kind of used it as a guide for "how not to write a main character!"

but this is just my view

[xil]

I personally believe in the power of symbols, even the most subtle ones. I believe we're profoundly affected by the tinies signals, if we keep being exposed to them.

Most posters here have testified that their personal opinions would never be influenced by stereotypes seen in games or movies, but most people also don't believe they're influenced by commercials when they shop for groceries. And then we haven't even mentioned yet how young, impressionable children are affected.

I once held a sex ed course (yeah, really) for my 8-9-graders, and the amount of misinformation, stereotypes and prejudices they harboured was staggering. It was so obvious how their views on women (and what they're supposed to look and act like) were more or less a direct product of mainstream media, and especially video games.

Absolutely spot on point, which I also believe highlights the larger point of why I dislike a lot of her videos.

Andail is effectively saying that children are influenced by video games that (for example) portray a world with no women, or perhaps only thin woman with large breasts etc, however, no one has discussed how that problem is fixed, or sorted out. Just mentioning that there is a problem is not an effective way to fix a problem in a large amount of cases.

Which is why I think she should be highlighting and discussing what games are moving forward with the times, rather than harping on and on about boring tropes and stereotypes. They exist, get over it, moaning about them isn't going to change jack sh*t. Create a video aimed at kids that highlights cool games they can play (that don't portray gender stereotypes) and then if you want to include a classroom learning element, sneak it in there subliminally like an advert would.

Also, the LEGO argument is a classic example of moaning doing absolutely nothing to further her cause. Why not use all that massive amount of time she spent researching how rubbish LEGO was at creating a product for women to actually sit down and develop a product example for LEGO to go away and test. Present to them an idea for how she thinks it should be changed and try to get LEGO to actually go out into the world and try it out. I want to see some facts, figures, examples, not some one-sided opinion!

[Myinah]

People have created inspiring female Lego sets off the back of it being brought to their attention. Sarkeesian bring attention to issues, there is nothing wrong with that. Showing people there is a problem isn't a bad thing. It allows other people to find solutions. She can see a problem and bring it to light without having the skills or power to fix it. Complaining doesn't solve problems, but it does bring them to peoples attentions and personally I dont see her videos as her just ranting about things. She is trying to show people there is an issue and then a few people watch them and say "Hey I can do something about that!"

Here are the minifigs that are being petitioned

[dactylopus]

Just mentioning that there is a problem is not an effective way to fix a problem in a large amount of cases.

Which is why I think she should be highlighting and discussing what games are moving forward with the times, rather than harping on and on about boring tropes and stereotypes. They exist, get over it, moaning about them isn't going to change jack sh*t. Create a video aimed at kids that highlights cool games they can play (that don't portray gender stereotypes) and then if you want to include a classroom learning element, sneak it in there subliminally like an advert would.

I agree.

I believe it's important to discuss things like this (and while she may have disabled comments, we're having quite the discussion about it here), but it's also important to try to come up with solutions.

I believe that her $150K of Kickstarter funds would have been better spent making her hypothetical game a reality:

[embed=560,315]http://youtu.be/UZKtFfHIGrA[/embed]

[Myinah]

She's not a game maker though. She's a feminist and a social scientist. She looks a popular culture from a feminist stand point. She isn't an artist or a game maker and she may not have an interest in making games. So why should she make one? She can consume a product and complain about it and ask for something different and it be valid without her having to make her own. If I don't like a meal at a restaurant I'm going to complain to the waiter and get the chef to fix it, I'm not going to walk into the kitchen and say "Well chef, you didn't cook this meal how I like it so I'm gonna have to cook it myself now." I don't have a food hygiene certificate for one, and two I am not interested in being a chef. 

The problem with saying "Don't complain!" or "If you dont like it fix it yourself!" Is that it is an incredibly reductive attitude. So someone with a full time job who likes video games isnt allowed to complain about them unless they make one themselves? How about we just end blogging and youtube as we know it? No one is taking issue with the huge number of review videos on youtube complaining about game mechanics or bad plots in games, but someone makes some videos pointing out a trend in games regarding sexism and suddenly it's all "She should just shut up and make her own game if it bothers her so much"?

Maybe I'm naive but I don't think that every time someone makes a complaint they have to the one to fix it. We are not all equally blessed in certain skill sets at the end of the day. Sarkeesian makes videos about feminism and runs Feminist Frequency. She isn't a game maker. Her not producing a game does not make her criticisms or arguments any less valid.

You know who is the solution to the problem? Game makers, especially those without a specific agenda. When we show that we can make games that are popular and fun without being sexist (which she did show with examples like Fez)then we pave the way for consumers to get used to that sort of content. We show publishers that these games can exist and be successful.

[xil]

People have created inspiring female Lego sets off the back of it being brought to their attention. Sarkeesian bring attention to issues, there is nothing wrong with that. Showing people there is a problem isn't a bad thing. It allows other people to find solutions. She can see a problem and bring it to light without having the skills or power to fix it. Complaining doesn't solve problems, but it does bring them to peoples attentions and personally I dont see her videos as her just ranting about things. She is trying to show people there is an issue and then a few people watch them and say "Hey I can do something about that!"

Here are the minifigs that are being petitioned

Totally agree with that. In fact, I find myself thinking more about gender stereotypes when looking at game trailers etc, which is a good thing, and I am aware she is not just ranting

However, you only really enforce my point by showing me that link. If her video had mostly been about the link you described (and others perhaps?) then I would have genuinely enjoyed it, as I thought those female mini figs look absolutely awesome!

It's one thing to say that her video caused someone to go away and develop that idea (obviously a good thing), but it's another to suggest that it will sway the big corporations (which we have already seen in LEGO's case was a complete disaster as they just created a barbie cupcake making LEGO set because they are idiots). The trouble is, she needs to change the view of the people buying the LEGO, so that they either don't buy it or tell LEGO to start making the stuff like in the link before they do buy it.

She's not a game maker though. She's a feminist and a social scientist... ...The problem with saying "Don't complain!" or "If you dont like it fix it yourself!" Is that it is an incredibly reductive attitude... ...Sarkeesian makes videos about feminism and runs Feminist Frequency. She isn't a game maker. Her not producing a game does not make her criticisms or arguments any less valid

I'm personally (I know that wasn't necessarily aimed at me) not saying she needs to go away and create a game or cook a meal, but don't make a video with 90% moaning about something being bad and 10% showing games which she likes, do it the other way around. Explain what the games she likes do better. Tell me where I can get better food etc.

You can still be a feminist and a social scientist and not just moan about what is bad about the world.

You know who is the solution to the problem? Game makers, especially those without a specific agenda. When we show that we can make games that are popular and fun without being sexist (which she did show with examples like Fez)then we pave the way for consumers to get used to that sort of content. We show publishers that these games can exist and be successful.

I don't agree with that entirely. You need more than a few indie developers that make a minimal impact on gaming to change it. Much more importantly, you need to get to the consumers directly and begin to change their point of view as well, and frankly, she doesn't do this very well (if at all).

[dactylopus]

She's not a game maker though. She's a feminist and a social scientist. She looks a popular culture from a feminist stand point. She isn't an artist or a game maker and she may not have an interest in making games. So why should she make one? She can consume a product and complain about it and ask for something different and it be valid without her having to make her own. If I don't like a meal at a restaurant I'm going to complain to the waiter and get the chef to fix it, I'm not going to walk into the kitchen and say "Well chef, you didn't cook this meal how I like it so I'm gonna have to cook it myself now." I don't have a food hygiene certificate for one, and two I am not interested in being a chef. 

The problem with saying "Don't complain!" or "If you dont like it fix it yourself!" Is that it is an incredibly reductive attitude. So someone with a full time job who likes video games isnt allowed to complain about them unless they make one themselves? How about we just end blogging and youtube as we know it? No one is taking issue with the huge number of review videos on youtube complaining about game mechanics or bad plots in games, but someone makes some videos pointing out a trend in games regarding sexism and suddenly it's all "She should just shut up and make her own game if it bothers her so much"?

Maybe I'm naive but I don't think that every time someone makes a complaint they have to the one to fix it. We are not all equally blessed in certain skill sets at the end of the day. Sarkeesian makes videos about feminism and runs Feminist Frequency. She isn't a game maker. Her not producing a game does not make her criticisms or arguments any less valid.

You know who is the solution to the problem? Game makers, especially those without a specific agenda. When we show that we can make games that are popular and fun without being sexist (which she did show with examples like Fez)then we pave the way for consumers to get used to that sort of content. We show publishers that these games can exist and be successful.

You're right, she doesn't have to make any games in order to make these statements.  I'm not in any way trying to invalidate what she is saying.  I was really just saying I would love to play her hypothetical game, and that increasing the availability of these games would be more beneficial to her cause.

Don't get me wrong here.  I agree with many of her points, and I feel that she has every right to voice her opinion.  She is attempting to provide a much needed service in pointing out these issues.  And admittedly, she does mention some games that are doing it right.  I feel that side of it should have been explored more.  I also feel that more of such games will make a larger impact overall than simple discussion.

As for the restaurant analogy, I'd wonder why you were eating in a place where they serve food you don't like.  Sure, you can eat anywhere, but why not frequent an establishment that provides food that you enjoy, or complain that not enough of them exist?  I suppose that's part of the issue.  If there are only so many restaurants, and they are all providing lackluster food, then what else can you do but complain?  But there are other alternatives.  I feel she spends the majority her time attacking the negative rather than praising the positive.  That is, however, the focus of these videos: to attack tropes that are damaging to women.

I'm not saying she can't complain and point out these issues.  I'm saying that there may be more productive uses of her time and money.  But again, I'll reiterate that I agree with many of her points, and that I feel it is important to discuss these things.  Bringing attention to the issues is a valuable service.

[Myinah]

In my restaurant analogy if we are making comparisons to the game industry, the majority of the popular restaurants would be making food I'm not totally happy with. Sure I can stay in a cook, or I can go to those fun little family run establishments that offer great food, but maybe sometimes I want to go to the same restaurant as all my guy friends and enjoy the food too. It's almost like the restaurant says "Guys eat rare steak, women eat salad!" and I'm saying, "Can I have some peri peri chicken? Or at least a medium steak?!"

I didn't mean to imply you disagree with her, and I wasn't targeting you in particular with my comment so I apologise if it came off that way

[waheela]

Myinah, I think all your posts in this thread pretty much mirror everything I'm thinking right now.

I've followed Anita Sarkeesian for a while. She does hold some pretty strong feminist views, and I don't absolutely agree 100% with everything she's said in her gaming videos. I think it's good to critically examine things you watch, however it's been a little painful to watch the ridiculously extreme criticism she's received for just about everything, including how she disabled comments on her youtube channel, used all the hate mail as a ploy for more Kickstarter money to get rich... I really don't understand why she upsets people so much. There are so many male game reviewers who are critical in the same way if not more (like Yahtzee, who I like), and yet I hear no criticism about them at all. It bothers me that we expect her to jump through all these additional hoops in order to garner any sort of respect (i.e. If she hates these games so much, why doesn't she just make her own game? If she hates these games so much, just don't play them, etc...)

Why can't we all just watch these videos as is, take a little from them we find interesting/insightful, and then move on? Why do we see these videos as an attack on who we are as gamers, but don't have this same reaction when we watch Zero Punctuation?